on t.r's first safari with all avaliable guns and carts what SHOULD have teddy roosevelt hunted with?

please be game specific and include caliber, bullet weight & velocity

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
on t.r's first safari with all avaliable guns and carts what SHOULD have teddy roosevelt hunted with?

please be game specific and include caliber, bullet weight & velocity

Let me just say he should not have hunted with the 405 Winchester.

How come you post these questions and never insert your opinion?

dont want to taint the opinions...will give mine later

Marlin 45-70!

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
on t.r's first safari with all avaliable guns and carts what SHOULD have teddy roosevelt hunted with?

please be game specific and include caliber, bullet weight & velocity

I don't see a thing wrong with his choices. He may have used a .405 rifle at times when the .30-06 might have served him better.

oh-oh....

please no @#-*& (45-70) debates...not the intended question but i apreciate the vote...remember there is lots of different game

original question...

on t.r's first safari with all avaliable guns and carts what SHOULD have teddy roosevelt hunted with?

please be game specific and include caliber, bullet weight & velocity

For Dangerous Game he should have hunted with something along the lines of a Rodda 4-Bore, Exposed Hammers with Fully Rifled Barrels. I think the Bullet would be around 1850 Grains.

dont forget plains game not just the big stuff

The 4 Bore was for Plains Game also....I wouldn't want a wounded bushbuck to charge...Haven't you ever heard the phrase. "Use Enough Gun"

He had a Proper double rifle on the Safari.
He used what he was familar with.
And also this is probably a BIG consideration, he used AMERICAN rifles and calibers.
After all politics is politics.
A person of his NATIONAL stature using a British gun.....
Well you should be able to figure it out.

Back in those days it was common to take 3 rifles, a light medium, and a heavy.
A 30-06, 375 H&H and a big bore double was perfect back then.... Still would be today...
Except for the New rules ie 2 rifles.

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Alf,

Do you know where the gun is now. In a Museum or Private Ownership??

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338 RUM

The best quote I can remember involved Eland and I only read it in Swedish so my translation might not be correct.

Their movement was steady as they were running and the distance was not to far (300-400 meters) so I took the shot. I am sure he would have loved a flat shooter, Off course a Barnes X bullet in 180 grains for maximum speed...

If you read TR's book you will see that his use of the .405 Win was pretty much a failure as he wounded lots of game with it. When getting close to big stuff he had good results with the 500/450, and for plains game his 03 Springfield served him well. Both outshone the 405 Win by a considerable margin.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
The rifle is currently in a ? private Museum, just the other day I saw an article on the Museum but for the love of me I cant locate the name and place now.

The rifle was sold to an unknown collector in San Francisco in 1994 for US$ 550,000

I wonder if I could borrow it for a safari...

500grains

While your safari would be a more "classy" with Teddy's British double, there are no flies on the way your Searcy 500 shoots.
How is the Continental 500 working out?

Start loading ammo for another Prarrie dog hunt in June as I am back to Idaho for another bear hunt.

Wasn't the browning machine gun invented earlier, and avaliable? There were LOTTS of elephant at that time, and Cape buffalo, not to mention lions...

s

Alf and 500 grains have it right. If you read both volumes on the African Safari TR indicates in several places that when shooting the 1895 Winchester in 405 they had to throw a LOT of lead to kill any game. He also indicates that the rifle was terribly prone to failure. Yet at the same time he praised the Winchester calling it "big medecine". Politics and politicians promoting American products. TR was a master.

Did T.R. also make the statemant that he was not a great shot,but shot often!

Kermit (TR's son) used a double Rigby on that trip. Wonder what became of it?

Also, TR's famous H&H can be seen in use in Africa by his heirs in the 1986 film "In The Blood".

quote:

Originally posted by fla3006:
Kermit (TR's son) used a double Rigby on that trip. Wonder what became of it?

Also, TR's famous H&H can be seen in use in Africa by his heirs in the 1986 film "In The Blood".

Also, one of the prenciples in that film was the man who bought the TR double at auction. He loaned it for the filming of "IN THE BLOOD" !

TR had several rifle with him, and Kermit, on that safari. The only ones that performed properly were the two doubles, and two 1903 springfields chambered for 30-06, and theywere the only rifles needed for the hunting they did. The 405 was a real disapointment to Teddy, on large animals, and wounded almost everything he shot with it, but was OK on small cats like Leopard, or deer size animals.

The H&H double 500/450NE was on display at a SHOT show, in the Dallas convention center just before it went on auction, and I got to handle it some. That was a beautiful rifle, and was, and is almost brand new, as that safari was the only place it was ever used to hunt, till the filming of "IN THE BLOOD".

The Springfield was actualy a 30/03 Sn # 6000
The double was refited by Holland and Holland prior to filming in the blood
Doyle

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
If you read TR's book you will see that his use of the .405 Win was pretty much a failure as he wounded lots of game with it.

I wonder how much of its failure could be contributed to the lack of quality bullets in that caliber.

It seems the 405, while not on par with other caliber choices of similar bore diameter, has ample energy for most African game.

I really like his choice of the 30/03 in a 1903. It makes quite a statement that he would choose the same rifle and caliber that was the choice of his countries troops, even though his rifle was a sporter version.

doyle...nice quote...in case you are wondering his signature quote is from "THE LURE OF THE LABRADOR WILD"...you realy should place credit for quotes...how did you like the book?

does anyone have pics of the 30/03 I would be interested in just how sporterized it was

Boom Stick
Is this better
Doyle

quote:

Originally posted by Doyle Hufstedler:
The Springfield was actualy a 30/03 Sn # 6000
The double was refited by Holland and Holland prior to filming in the blood
Doyle

Doyle, you are correct, it was a 30-03 in a 1903 Springfield sporter. The 30-03, and the 30-06 are the same cartridge, balisticly, and it takes a trained eye to tell the difference with out measureing them. The re-fitting of the H&H, was simply cosmetic, and mostly on the luggage case, and wood finish! No major work was done on the rifle it's self!

The Spring field has been said to be "The Big Stick" but it wasn't, it was the H&H double he was refering to. The 1895 Winchester 405 was the rifle he called "LION MEDICINE", before going to Africa. Unfortunetly it didn't turn out that way in the field.

The comment about the lack of good bullets being the cause of the 405's problem, may be true compared to today with the 405, but you know all the rifles he used were operating under the sam hanicap. Bring them forward to today,with bullets available today, and the 405 is still bottom of the three, for big animals.

There is a real nice S/S double rifle for sale on the net chambered for 405 Win. if anyone wants a real classic double. I think it is at Hallowell. It would make a really nice double for North America.

TR's Springfield

BTW, Kermit's Rigby double was augmented by an 1895 Winchester in .30 US, a/k/a .30-40 Krag.

Remember, there was no such thing as a .375, a .416 or a .404. Teddy and Kermit had the best they could get.

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doyle

does anyone know when the 505 gibbs was comercialy avaliable?

The gibbs was developed arround 1910 - 1912 from my best refrences.
Doyle

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After reading some of TR "exploits" I think he would have been better letting his seeing-eye dog chase the game down!

Anderson used the .405 quite effectively in India as an affordable alternative to a double...I recall him needing a second and sometimes a third shot, but often that was down to poor shot placement due to the circumstances...

And I thought the poacher thread was the stupidest one I had seen on here!

have a scotch...make that two and you will feel better

I was told that during the filming of IN THE BLOOD that TR's rifle was burned in a brush fire and had to be reconditioned by H&H, hence why they were unwrapping it in the film. The 30 03 in the Springfield was a wonderful exhibition of the rifle (American Technology) on the safari. It was epic in all proportions. At that time the British double was as high tech as you could get for shooting big animals, it is still tough to beat now!
I wonder how many mausers 7x57mm,enfields .303, and Martinis .577-.450 were on the hunt too?

Aleko

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