I have 2 BIG questions
1 How often do clients not follow PH's advise / instructions?
2 What are the most common acts of not following instructions?

I ask this question as I am preparing myself mentally for a possible African safari in 2013 with an AR Friend.

I have never been to Africa and never hunted DG though I have been charged by elephants a few times in India - once as close as about 6 feet.

Let me explin what I mean by mental preparation.... It is something like training to remember shot picture or trying to control emotions and avoid buck fever or like trying to keep your cool in college when you are besotted by a lovely girl.... you know what I mean..

I have the following priorities in my list which I will go through several times a day - over the next 2 years

Enjoy the experience and the trip

Plan & budget before hand so that I avoid the stress of cost over runs etc.

Trust the PH (having done the home work in advance & selecting a reliable & reputed one)

Practice with the rifles on sticks and off hand

Get into physical shape and exercise - plan to walk at least 10 miles a day

Read & discuss with AR friends the list of stuff - vaccines, insect spray, boots - etc.

I just hope I do not shoot the wrong animal like Buzz's client who shot the "smelly" 3 day old elephant!

"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick."

The only time I've ignored my PH's advice was to shoot when I either didn't want the animal or the shot was poor. Otherwise, I generally follow my PH's advice since that's what I'm paying him for. If you're questioning your PH's abilities, find another PH.

+1

I never hear about outright not following directions. I do hear about shooting the wrong animal.

Thanks for that reply. I agree with it in principle. I wanted to know the PH's perspective. For example Buzz mentioned this client who shot at an elephant that was not identified by the PH & before he was ready. Do some clients shoot when a tracker is in front (dangerous & I would never hunt with someone who did that), or if a client had a habit of wearing the wrong kind of clothing or made too much noise or WHAT EVER.

I want to prepare for stuff that I am not aware of that might make his job more difficult.

most common I see is clients who do not follow instructions on shot placement.

If your PH says to take the shot and you aren't comfortable with it, tell him. If it is a trophy you don't want, tell him (you'll probably regret it later like I did but tell him anyway.).

The other issue I highly recommend is to stay immediately (close) on his "6 o'clock" when you are tracking game. He needs to have you there when he stops to discuss the hunt, stalk, or the animal he is considering.

Good luck on your first Africa hunt.

I've not listened a few times, but it was due to my hearing issues. The first time it caused me to shoot my wounded buff in the "wrong end" and caused the PH to shoot the bull to finish him off.

I have also "deliberately" blown a shot or two on animals I did not want (expensive animals that were noted as being sub par (its a mature but small one, but its all we will see, so shoot it...) or Zebra that I did not want as a bait animal at full trophy fee... We had discussed it before, but the PH recommended it anyhow, so rather than argue, I just shot a tree instead, and said, whoops, I flinched... I think he knew what happened as I usually want to figure out why I missed, and didn't seem upset about my miss, which I admit is unusual for me- he didn't try to get me to shoot $1500 bait animals when I could shoot $150 bait after that.

Having said that, I pay the guy for his advice, I'd be a fool not to listen- but it is listen, not be dictated to, as several have said before.

Don't load your gun until instructed. A safety is not safe and never will be. Better to enquire with the PH whether you should load if you feel that you are getting into a shooting position.

Binoculars are a critical piece of kit. Buy the best you can afford and for god's sake carry them around your neck where they can be used quickly.

Communication is vital in the field. Are you sure you have identified the animal? Have a proper look at it yourself. When a PH says shoot only do so if you are comfortable with the shot. Talk or whisper to the PH if need. A PH will provide a reference for the shot and make sure you understand what he is talking about - for example point of shoulder?

If you feel tired or exhausted then tell us. Are your boots uncomfortable? Then inform us so we can remedy these problems before they get out of proportion. This is not an endurance test it is a hunt.

Explain to the PH your expectations regarding trophy animals. Nowadays I see more who rather swap a few inches for the hunting experience, however then aged animals should be sought and hunted.

Each has his own style of hunting and each his code of ethics. Make sure these are outlined. Is their room for some flexability?

English double rifles make excellent PH tips.

The only times I have not followed instructions was when told to shoot as well. One time I could not tell the north from the south end of a buff in really thick stuff. No reason to take a shot you are not sure of. Another time was same type of thing. A very steep uphill shot at a sheep. Was asked why I wasnt shooting. I told the guide I couldnt see it except for an ocassional glimpse of horn. He then realized that his being a foot taller than me and the fact that I was standing in a hole 6 or 7 inches to his right made all the difference. He moved, I moved and stood on a rock. Bang, flop. It still all boiled down to not having the same sight picture and shot presentation.

Matt, I wonder if a lot of what you are seeing is this type of thing. The other possibility is they are letting egos get in the way or maybe they just cant make the shot. Then again they are just probably blowing you off!

quote:

Don't load your gun until instructed. A safety is not safe and never will be. Better to enquire with the PH whether you should load if you feel that you are getting into a shooting position.

Binoculars are a critical piece of kit. Buy the best you can afford and for god's sake carry them around your neck where they can be used quickly.

Communication is vital in the field. Are you sure you have identified the animal? Have a proper look at it yourself. When a PH says shoot only do so if you are comfortable with the shot. Talk or whisper to the PH if need. A PH will provide a reference for the shot and make sure you understand what he is talking about - for example point of shoulder?

If you feel tired or exhausted then tell us. Are your boots uncomfortable? Then inform us so we can remedy these problems before they get out of proportion. This is not an endurance test it is a hunt.

Explain to the PH your expectations regarding trophy animals. Nowadays I see more who rather swap a few inches for the hunting experience, however then aged animals should be sought and hunted.

Each has his own style of hunting and each his code of ethics. Make sure these are outlined. Is their room for some flexability?

English double rifles make excellent PH tips.

+1

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
Don't load your gun until instructed. A safety is not safe and never will be. Better to enquire with the PH whether you should load if you feel that you are getting into a shooting position.

Binoculars are a critical piece of kit. Buy the best you can afford and for god's sake carry them around your neck where they can be used quickly.

Communication is vital in the field. Are you sure you have identified the animal? Have a proper look at it yourself. When a PH says shoot only do so if you are comfortable with the shot. Talk or whisper to the PH if need. A PH will provide a reference for the shot and make sure you understand what he is talking about - for example point of shoulder?

If you feel tired or exhausted then tell us. Are your boots uncomfortable? Then inform us so we can remedy these problems before they get out of proportion. This is not an endurance test it is a hunt.

Explain to the PH your expectations regarding trophy animals. Nowadays I see more who rather swap a few inches for the hunting experience, however then aged animals should be sought and hunted.

Each has his own style of hunting and each his code of ethics. Make sure these are outlined. Is their room for some flexability?

+100's

English double rifles make excellent PH tips.

If you do not follow the PH instructions then you have chosen the wrong operation to hunt with.

I alway understand who I am hunting with.
Also is good if the PH has some back ground on you as well. Will help with his confidence with you and your skills. Thus avoiding the need to tell you every thing.

Do not shot if you don't like the animal or you can not make the shot.

Not shooting far enough forward and mistaking just behind the shoulder for the gut. I alway tell them shoot on the shoulder.

No use paying some one to take you hunting if you do not follow instructions.

Regards Mark

The only time I refused an order from a PH was when he wanted me to re-zero my rifle scope to dead on at 100 yards!

This was a 375 H&H rifle that I had been using for some years, and I knew where it hit at just about any range where shooting an animal would be an ethical act!

I did not change it and killed six animals from wart hog to Hippo, all but two with one shot kills, and no tracking of wounded animals!

The PH was new to me, and was visibly miffed, but when the hunt was over he complimented me on my shooting!

……………………………………………………………………

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

English double rifles make excellent PH tips.

Thanks - sprayed my tea all over the keyboard....

Since the topic was "when not to follow your PH's advice" I wonder if this piece of advice falls into that category?

On a more serious note, all the above were good advice.
Would never even occur to me to shoot if I think it'll be a poor shot. I think I frustrated the s**t out of my PH on my first safari due to this...

- Lars/Finland

I have declined to shoot on several occasions with told to by the PH. Two cases involved the PH seeing an open shot and me not because of a different view of the animal. On another occasion I refused because I thought the bull ele was too young and on yet another because I thought the tuskless cow he targeted had a calf somewhere. Turns out I was right about the cow having a calf. Saved us from big trouble with Parks. Always let your concious be your guide.

465H&H

[QUOTE]Originally posted by fairgame:
Communication is vital in the field. Are you sure you have identified the animal? Have a proper look at it yourself. When a PH says shoot only do so if you are comfortable with the shot. Talk or whisper to the PH if need. A PH will provide a reference for the shot and make sure you understand what he is talking about - for example point of shoulder?
QUOTE]

As part of this communication, make sure you are both looking at the same animal when in a herd situation. I once took the wrong eland out of a herd. It was a far distance and I was told he was just coming clear. The one I was looking at was coming clear of a cow, the one he meant was coming clear from some bush.

In the end it worked out okay, the one I shot was younger, but it scored higher. Depends on how you look at things. That's actually a key part of safari prep, learning how to always see the bright side of things when there are difficulties.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
I have declined to shoot on several occasions with told to by the PH. Two cases involved the PH seeing an open shot and me not because of a different view of the animal. On another occasion I refused because I thought the bull ele was too young and on yet another because I thought the tuskless cow he targeted had a calf somewhere. Turns out I was right about the cow having a calf. Saved us from big trouble with Parks. Always let your concious be your guide.

465H&H

and some common sense.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
Don't load your gun until instructed. A safety is not safe and never will be. Better to enquire with the PH whether you should load if you feel that you are getting into a shooting position.

Totally agree.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

Always let your concious be your guide.

+1.

It can be very difficult to think clearly when 'in the thick of it'.
But we have the responsibility for taking an animal's life, so we should be ethical at all times.
So if it doesn't feel right taking the shot, there's probably a reason for it.

Thanks for all the constructive comments.

I have been on 4 or 5 guided hunts in NZ & Canada.

Hunting in NZ is mostly in very rugged terrain with dense cover & possibility of slipping or tripping. Each day in the field I might fall at least once! So rifle being loaded but bolt open with thumb firmly on bolt handle etc. are part of survival. After every fall the rifle gets a full inspection including the bore to make sure there is no mud in the barrel. We are extremely safety conscious in NZ as the gun laws are a lot tougher. Any unsafe practice can lose you the license and the right to hunt. Any accident is treated as homicide and WILL be prosecuted. More importantly, I have been trained by my dad from the time I was using a sling shot, to take responsibility! I have got a few clips around the ear from him as a kid & so I never forget - God rest his soul! Still miss him after he passed away in Feb, though he had been in full time care for 6 years. I wish I could share all this planning with him.

Back to the subject - I want to know specifically from the PHs what they experienced (no need to name names) - what did a client do & what they thought of it.

I can fully understand the issue of not shooting an animal if I cannot identify it or see the vitals. Same goes for not shooting an animal I do not want or that is not to my expectations.

CRButler - I would name the PH who was trying to get you to shoot bait at trophy prices. I get really mad when I read this kind of stuff. I am just an average Joe & I know that DG hunting is not cheap. So I will lay out my budget and agree on reasonable expectations with the PH. That is what I pay him to deliver on. If he then tries to gouge my wallet, the whole world will know about it.

How about when the PH says "Don't shoot again, its done".

How about when he says "Shoot the eland" and you say "which one, there's three" and he says "No there isn't". Wanna bet?

How about softs or solids for buffalo?

How about when you think an animal is too small?

To think of a few.

I can well remember hunting Tesseebe and they are spooky. We finally got in shooting range of the herd and they were trotting diagonally away from us. The PH said take the third one which I promptly did. The only problem was he meant 3rd from rear and I shot 3rd from front. As to loading my gun. I always load it upon stepping out of the vehicle and unloading it before getting in. Otherwise it was loaded at all times,period. If safeties don't work it is because they are broken and I don't hunt with broken guns. I don't point a weapon at anything I am not prepared to shoot. I have never been told to do otherwise by any PH.

Similar experience to Zimbabwe. Impala. PH says the one just to the right of the broken branch. There's two rams just there. I said, "the one facing to the left?" He said yes. I shot it. He meant the ram facing to its left, not the ram facing to my left. Get your communication straight.

I learned a hard lesson 30-odd years ago, when I was Barrie Duckworth's first client after he left Rhodesian Parks. We were on a huge sable, and he said something like, "See that big tree? That's the bull just going behind the tree." Okay, perfect. The sable stepped out and I hammered...her. The bull, which was still behind the tree, ran over the hill. Barrie gave me hell for shooting before he gave me the go-ahead, and he was dead right. PHs aren't perfect, but chances are they know their country and their game better than we do. It makes sense to listen...and try not to get too excited!

quote:

Originally posted by zimbabwe:
I can well remember hunting Tesseebe and they are spooky. We finally got in shooting range of the herd and they were trotting diagonally away from us. The PH said take the third one which I promptly did. The only problem was he meant 3rd from rear and I shot 3rd from front. As to loading my gun. I always load it upon stepping out of the vehicle and unloading it before getting in. Otherwise it was loaded at all times,period. If safeties don't work it is because they are broken and I don't hunt with broken guns. I don't point a weapon at anything I am not prepared to shoot. I have never been told to do otherwise by any PH.

On safari not only have I seen so called safeties malfunction, I have witnessed broken stocks, scopes, scope mounts, extractor claws and even a broken trigger. Feeding problems, loose cross bolts and retaining screws are also common place as so is ammunition malfunctions.

The chap with the broken extractor had to carry a cleaning rod to push out the fired cartridge case and so we nick named him Shockey from then on.

My point is that a loaded gun is not safe and an unloaded gun is not much safer. Keep that in mind and you will be fine.

Note the above rules do not apply to PHs.

quote:

Back to the subject - I want to know specifically from the PHs what they experienced (no need to name names) - what did a client do & what they thought of it.

Had a client shoot a Lion in the stomach through the back leg whilst it was lying down and for the life of me cannot remember calling or recommending that shot. I flicked through 'The Perfect Shot' and could find no reference to it either

What I do remember that day was a strict instruction to wait till the Lion stood up and I would call the shot if the opportunity presented itself.

I then used a very bad word that begins with Stupid C to aptly describe what I thought of him.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
CRButler - I would name the PH who was trying to get you to shoot bait at trophy prices. I get really mad when I read this kind of stuff. I am just an average Joe & I know that DG hunting is not cheap. So I will lay out my budget and agree on reasonable expectations with the PH. That is what I pay him to deliver on. If he then tries to gouge my wallet, the whole world will know about it.

Nakihunter:

It might be worth remembering that there is no distinction in trophy fees when hunting in government controlled areas where quotas are regulated and at times paid for by the outfitter up front.

An Impala is considered what it is on the hoof, whether the horns go 22 or 28; that one decides to shoot it for bait or trophy is irrelevant except for ranches/farms where the rancher/farmer may have his own quotas for baiting purposes and rather than just culling the numbers, will sell them for less than a trophy size ram.

It might therefore be worthwhile considering a hunt in a fenced area where one can shop at leisure and save the 'dunghris'.

Fairgame --- I'm glad that PH's are so superior that the common rules of safety don't have to be applied to them.

fairgame,

If hunting in a plains game area and the PH insisted that I carry an unloaded rifle, I would probably go along with it. If in a DG area and my PH insisted that I carry an unloaded rifle, I would ask the safari operator for another PH. An unloaded rifle in a DG area is no more use to you than a stick. In my opinion it is too close to suicide for me.

Some clients actually have more DG experience and shot more DG than many PHs. In addition they have over the years carried as rifle more miles over rougher terrain such as in the mountainous west than any newly minted African PH. I have read of PHs having accidently shot one of their trackers.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
fairgame,

If hunting in a plains game area and the PH insisted that I carry an unloaded rifle, I would probably go along with it. If in a DG area and my PH insisted that I carry an unloaded rifle, I would ask the safari operator for another PH. An unloaded rifle in a DG area is no more use to you than a stick. In my opinion it is too close to suicide for me.

Some clients actually have more DG experience and shot more DG than many PHs. In addition they have over the years carried as rifle more miles over rougher terrain such as in the mountainous west than any newly minted African PH. I have read of PHs having accidently shot one of their trackers.

465H&H

When you say loaded you mean cocked with the safety on? And you carry your rifle in your hands with your thumb on the safety and the barrell pointed upwards.

Just in case an elephant falls on you head?

Joking aside I would refute that there are many out there who are as familiar with firearms as your average PH. Most that I know and include myself will deal with a firearm some 150 - 200 days a year whilst conducting safaris. Some like me are also involved in anti poaching and many some sort of PAC. Don't think I have ever hunted an area where DG did not exist.

Some of us carry a loaded rifle some of us do not.

On my resent buffalo hunt my PH and I had closed in on a herd that had two good bulls in it. We had worked our way into a fairly good shooting position but I had to scoot on my butt to do this. As the terrain didn't allow a shot from this position , my PH and I had to stand and expose ourselves. Upon doing this the buffalo soon saw us and one of the bulls that we had been looking at was off to the side of the herd. The buffalo my PH wanted me to take was with most of the others and as we stood it was not long before they were moving off at a fairly fast pace. I didn't like the situation and turned to look at the other bull off to our left and took my eye off the bull my PH was concentrating on. Let me tell you that is the last time I will pull a stunt like that. My PH let me know in no uncertain terms that I was to concentrate on the bull he wanted me too. I felt like a heel and with the respect I have for my PH, I learned a valuable lesson.
You must work like a team when hunting with a professional who does this day in and day out and remember that he is the boss!

One other thought on identifying game. Make sure you have a common understanding of what words mean. My first safari and first buffalo I lined up carefully on the "one in front" and made a brilliant shot on a cow. I thought "one in front" meant the one closest to us of a herd of about 8. What he meant was the one that was farthest to the right of the herd which was walking to the right

Was in the gunshop yesterday and there were probably 3 police officers there,a couple of Sheriffs deputies in plain clothes and a city patrolman. All were armed and I venture to say had a round chambered. I was never once when in the Army instructed to carry my weapon unloaded except when in garrison. A rifle does not make a very good club as the balance is all wrong and they are too awkward to throw. They are only effective when loaded. Most of the clerks in the gunshop are armed and also have a round chambered.

quote:

Originally posted by zimbabwe:
Was in the gunshop yesterday and there were probably 3 police officers there,a couple of Sheriffs deputies in plain clothes and a city patrolman. All were armed and I venture to say had a round chambered. I was never once when in the Army instructed to carry my weapon unloaded except when in garrison. A rifle does not make a very good club as the balance is all wrong and they are too awkward to throw. They are only effective when loaded. Most of the clerks in the gunshop are armed and also have a round chambered.

Flip me how long does it take to chamber a round? You refer to the Army and we are talking about a flipping stroll in the countryside.

Fairgame,

I am with you on this one. I sometimes wonder about that game scout AK, however.

One advantage of a bolt gun is being able to leave the magazine full but the chamber empty - or even leave the bolt open. I guess if you are a double rifle fan you might want to carry two up the spout...

As for police officers carrying loaded guns, haven't we all heard of cops who accidentally shoot themselves?

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

One advantage of a bolt gun is being able to leave the magazine full but the chamber empty - o

Thats how I do it. My Ph.s also agree with this.


Anton

We either do not understand each other or do not agree! I get really mad if a supplier of a service that I pay for tries to gouge my pocket after he knows my position. On a hunt, if I have specifically agreed to limits with the PH I expect him to keep to that agreement. I expect him to do his very best to make sure I have a great time within tose limits I have set. His quotas and season are of no real concern to me except as a polite & useful bit of anecdotal information. I DO NOT want his business problems to become mine when I am paying the bills.

Hunting on private property is something I have done in NZ many times & will do again. On an African safari, the costs are 50 times higher. My plan is to decide on my budget including tips and say a $2000 cushion in case I want to take an animal of chance. I would table my budget to the PH without the $2000. I would tell him to alert me if we saw a caracal, tiny 10 antelope or some such opportunity. I would get really mad if he tried to get me to shoot "that huge sable" for example.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
CRButler - I would name the PH who was trying to get you to shoot bait at trophy prices. I get really mad when I read this kind of stuff. I am just an average Joe & I know that DG hunting is not cheap. So I will lay out my budget and agree on reasonable expectations with the PH. That is what I pay him to deliver on. If he then tries to gouge my wallet, the whole world will know about it.

Nakihunter:

It might be worth remembering that there is no distinction in trophy fees when hunting in government controlled areas where quotas are regulated and at times paid for by the outfitter up front.

An Impala is considered what it is on the hoof, whether the horns go 22 or 28; that one decides to shoot it for bait or trophy is irrelevant except for ranches/farms where the rancher/farmer may have his own quotas for baiting purposes and rather than just culling the numbers, will sell them for less than a trophy size ram.

It might therefore be worthwhile considering a hunt in a fenced area where one can shop at leisure and save the 'dunghris'.

The case for me that he was referring to was the PH wanted me to shoot a Kudu for bait, and I had told him that unless it was better than what I had previously shot, I didn't want to shoot a Kudu.

There was another case where the PH wanted me to shoot a Zebra for bait while there were plenty of impala around.

In both cases, I think it was the PH wanting me to be happy that I had gotten most of the animals in the trophy list, even though I had specific ideas about what I wanted.

In the one case, the guy was pushing me to shoot the Kudu, and I had said if its not better than 51" I didn't want to take it, he said its maybe 48", but that's really good for this area. I said no, he kept saying shoot, so I shot the tree and said whoops. We both knew what happened, and he and I got along fine after that. I think it was miscommunication in that I had told him I would take anything that was good enough that was available, but I had said the kudu had to be this size or better.

I was early in my career as a safari hunter, and had not learned yet to just say, no, its my hunt, I don't want him. Lets shoot an impala for bait instead. Who knows, maybe the cats in that area are more likely to come for Kudu... I don't know, but he never said that. He did say that he wanted meat in the tree, and if I delayed that, the likelihood of getting a cat went down. We had a brief discussion again, and I never hesitated to shoot what he pointed out again.

All it means is that you both need to be on the same wavelength, which we were not at that point.

I would not hesitate to hunt with the guy again, so naming him as a troublesome PH would do him a great disservice, and misses the point I was trying to make, albeit poorly.

On the other hand, in an unrelated point re Fairgame's comment I have never had a PH tell me when we were walking in the bush to not have a round chambered, in fact all of them on DG hunts wanted me to be loaded and have the rifle on safe. The only guy who did not was my moose guide. To be honest, I have had PH's/outfitters who wanted me to leave rounds in the gun when I thought it not the best thing to do. (meaning leaving a loaded magazine in an unattended rifle in the truck) I did it my way, and they said I may miss an opportunity because of that, but I said it was my dollar, and I want it that way, and I wanted them to do that as well, and they complied with my wishes. Safety is everyone's business, and if approached nonjudgmentally, I don't think anyone minds.

I will say that I would not be happy with a PH who felt he should have a round in the chamber at all times in the bush and I should only load at his command while on a DG hunt. If it's good for the goose, its good for the gander as my first PH said...

quote:

Originally posted by A.Dahlgren:

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

One advantage of a bolt gun is being able to leave the magazine full but the chamber empty - o

Thats how I do it. My Ph.s also agree with this.


Anton

Exactly. Note my rules are general and it takes me a couple of days to analyse the competence of the hunter and how he handles his firearms. Most seasoned hunters will ask me what I prefer regarding safety and these chaps are very competent and do not require any further instruction.

The others have to do as they are told.

There is no such thing as DG country. Game is only dangerous if you stress or wound it and obviously you would then be loaded and ready to fire. It is a misconception that dangerous animals lurk behind every bush ready to pounce on the unsuspecting hunter.