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| <hornblower> |
quote: Kalle , | ||
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| one of us |
quote: Dear Andr�, I am afraid you misunderstand the situation. It is simple, and it is the same as with any commercial product. The majority of produced items are always free of fault or failure. It is those that fail (regardless whether car or electric hair-dryer), and thereby damage reputation, and make for product liability cases. *Shrug* Your juxtaposition, while adding a welcome lighter tone, IMHO fails to grasp the real problems addressed here. Part of which are based on safety concerns (which need not be over-estimated, but it is downright silly to close one's eyes in front of facts - deal with them and *then* weigh them); part of which refer to the unbalanced price-quality relationship of the R 93, which very correctly have been called expensive cheap guns. That does not make them "bad" however; a sober price assessment just shows whether you understand manufacturing processes of your tool, and the cost of riflemaking. In addition, if one were inclined to well-intentioned irony, one could turn your dichotomy quite nicely around: there are the fanatic Blaser-lovers who buy into all the advertisement and media hype, and who for the sake of their mortals souls can't admit even the passing possibility that an R 93 might be something less than the acme of gunmaking and epitome of all hunting bliss; That's about it. :-) Carcano [This message has been edited by carcano91 (edited 03-05-2002).] | |||
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| <martin f> |
Hornblower, the R93 is short and handy, easy to carry in the mountain, fits well into a German Hochsitz. And for hunting deer from a Hochsitz, magazine capacity normally is not an issue. But remember, the question was: R93 for African hunting, maybe even in .416 Rem. Mag. That means lion, buffalo, maybe elefant. Then I would want a full magazine! Hunting dangerous game has been compared to battle by some people, and you will like to have a rifle with foolproof design and proven reliability. Saeed has already tactfully pointed to that. It would be interesting to hear how many African PHs have Blasers for dangerous game. Another point: in my experience, a rifle of generous weight, balanced well forward of the trigger helps in accurate shooting. Blasers (and most Ferlach rifles) are light and short, OK for shooting from a rest, but not ideal for offhand shooting. And there is no Hochsitz in Africa, and you may be called to shoot with shooting sticks or from other shaky positions. Andre, yes, in the Blaser debates in the German forums, there were many satisfied users. I remember one post: "shot x deer in y years, great rifle, very handy, no problems except a stuck case then and now". I can't take such posts as proof of expertise, and will disregard them as not significant, except the mentioning of stuck cases! Even if I don't own an R93, I am free to voice my opinion and concerns. And we had at least one dissatisfied R93 owner in this thread. Blaser markets this rifle as "safety rifle", and if there are reasonably well founded concerns about safety (like gas handling, unintentional discharge), then this is not a question of love or hate. In fact this might be an issue of consumer protection and maybe false marketing claims. Kalle, you are right on: "it's only a rifle", and as such it should not be an object of love or hate. But it's not the perfect rifle for all hunting occasions, and at least in my modest opinion has its faults. This forum always has been the best place to discuss Pros and Cons in an amicable manner; let's keep it that way. Best regards, | ||
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| one of us |
Hi, I think the R93 Safari could also be used on Safari. 4 Rounds (3 in the mag + 1 up the spout) in .416 should be enough, otherwise you are in trouble anyhow (my Ruger in .416 RIGBY also has only a mag capacity of 3 rounds) and there are definite pro's for using the R93 as DG rifle like faster reloading (than with a traditional 98 type of bolt action), uncocked bolt safety (you can always have you gun loaded while tracking) and the ability to "take down" your gun and therefore travelling without an easy-to-recognize gun case! And the Safari with the heavy barrel and the kick-stop weights about 4.6kg - that should be enough f�r the caliber! Why I'm myself not having a R93 Safari? Just quite simple - because I got a chance to buy a used Ruger at a very good price and I also prefer the RIGBY over the REMINGTON WH ERik [This message has been edited by ErikT (edited 03-07-2002).] | |||
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one of us |
Hornblower, Allow me, sehr geehrte Frau, to pay you a compliment in that you talk a lot of sense in this passionate debate. I would add, for the benefit of your honourable contradictor, that R93 barrels only look shorter than they actually appear, because of the telescoping bolt. There's more than meets the eye... Carcano91, ------------------ | |||
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one of us |
Having only handled a '93, my observation may be irrelevant, but here it is anyway. Andre, as a former competitor accuracy is foremost with you. Makes a lot of sense. For a P.H, accuracy would take a back seat to reliability. If it isn't, one stuck case during a hairy elephant encounter would change his priorities, forever. Likewise, I have ruptured a case before (stupidity on my part, admittedly). However, I now know that a rifle with good gas handling designs is VERY IMPORTANT to me. As a matter of fact, it is one of those things that come way before accuracy or reliable feeding. So, having seen the design of the Blaser, having handled it, and read the glowing reports on accuracy, it is not acceptable to me. I have been told that the reason why the Mauser '98 has such excellent gas-handling capacities was that P.P. Mauser lost an eye to a ruptured case in an earlier design. My eyes benefitted from that experience during my case rupture. I am not willing to give up that safety feature for accuracy, or anything else for that matter. JMO, Dutch. | |||
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| <martin f> |
Dutch, that's my feeling, too. Actually one of the Mauser brother had an accident when experimenting with an experimental automatic rifle. Regards, | ||
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| one of us |
quote: Hornblower To answer your questions: Shorter barrel - I don't like because of the extra noise, muzzle blast and muzzle jump. I'm not talking looong just 24" which is what most use. One shot will do - not for me it won't. At least 3 times a year I will cull an entire parcel of muntjac ie buck, doe and fawn. With one shot left after the last deer down in case of mishap it's 4 round mag for me. The safety is more difficult to use silently and so I don't favour it over a conventional one 243 is the calibre I have a space for. It seem stupid that in a light barreled rifle the standard twist is for varmint bullets when a hunting twist would make it so versatile. Don't get me wrong I'm not knocking it, it's just not for me. | |||
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| <hornblower> |
quote: Sorry , 1894 , | ||
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One of Us |
I haven't owned one, but have intended to purchase one when the right time comes around. So these discussions have been very interesting. What I like about them is the takedown ability. I like my hunting rifle to be out of casual sight in my suitcase. Attracts less unwanted attention when travelling, especially if staying in city hotels etc. The barrel lengths of R93 are pretty standard at 24" and 26" except for the 6.5x68 which is 24" (why on earth have a medium length barrel on a 6.5x68????) This is of interest as I would like to get a 6.5 and 8 x68 S but only if the barrel on the 6.5 can be ordered in 26". I also like the lightweight rifle. Most of mine are medium weight, but practice with your rifle and get used to it. And if your main rifle with several calibres is a R93 you will use it a lot more and be more familiar with it than someone who has 10 calibres in 10 rifles instead of 1 rifle with 10 calibres. Lightweight rifles are fantastic if accurate when you have to climb up and down mountains rather than walk from your car to the high seat only. I do think the safety considerations are a worry but surely these are just a few rifles and not standard problems. The extraction problem is of concern. I used to own a Winchester 70 Featherweight (not a controlled feed M98 style action) and had one failed extraction. Since then I have only used positive and controlled feed M98 style actions. I would also like a 416 Rem Mag barrel but I agree with many posters here that a Mauser 98 (or a double rifle) is preferable for dangerous game. ******************* As a unbiased consumer. Tell us what you think when you get your rifle. Appearance, quality, balance, barrel length, extraction, accuracy etc Hope it works out. Good hunting everyone Nitro ------------------ | |||
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| <Doc Garnett> |
Well, I weighed in late on the other R93 thread and so in the interest of fairness, I will weigh in late on this thread, too. I've owned a R93 for about 4 or 5 years in .30-06. I mounted a Swarovski American 3-9x 36mm and hung a Brownell's Latigo sling on it. When I first took it to the range, I was a little disappointed. Oh, it shot fine - VERY fine - MOA +- with several or more different factory loads! But the mechanics of operating the bolt, cocking and decocking, and reloading were disconcertingly "alien" to any other firearm in my experience. However, having invested some $$$ in the rifle, I was determined to master the mechanics until the operation was as familiar as any bolt action I have shot over the years. I am glad I did. NOW, this R93 is probably my all around favorite hunting rifle. For me and my particular body shape/build, it handles perfectly in the field. I like the weight and the short 40 inch length. The stock design minimizes felt recoil. I said in the other thread, that I must have a thousand rounds through it, but giving it more thought, I would up that estimate to maybe 1500+. I have never had a failure of any kind despite a wide variety of conditions, including EXTREME dust. The rifle did develop a temporarily "mushy" trigger but I cured that with a spray flush of degreaser in the trigger housing. I don't think that it is at all difficult to reload, even under pressure. My suspicion is that some (not all) who do not like the rifle haven't spent enough time with it to master its "alien" mechanisms and have not developed their "muscle memory" for the Blaser as they have for their traditional bolt actioned rifles. I have only three complaints: (1) The scope does mount a little high, but again, not any higher than most designs. (2) They ARE expensive... but I have spent MORE money on guns that were not as accurate or as reliable. (3) It could have a better recoil pad. Once, on a bet, I shot a three shot group of about an inch. Took the rifle apart - barrel, scope and mount, bolt/housing - and put it back together again. And then shot another three shot group. The second group also measured an inch and was superimposed over the first group such that the combined six shot group measured 1 1/2 inch ! The ammo was factory 180 grain Failsafes !! The range was 100 meters. I DO like my R93 very much and if any of you want to give yours up, please let me know. These reports of safety problems do concern me, but do these failures exceed the statistical norm of other factory rifles? The test where the case was overloaded and drilled through the case head to form an extreme high pressure gas jet seems to my ignorant mind, to have had the expected result! So I'll be careful not to load any sabotaged cases, to say, 180,000 psi ... The accidental discharges ... Well, all I can say is that I have witnessed several, that upon closer examination turned out to be operator error and I have seen two accidental discharges that appeared to be mechanical but in both cases, could not be duplicated. Anyway, the point is..... annecdotes are not the stuff of science. Nevertheless, I'll be extra careful to wear eye protection henceforth. There's my two cents worth. -- Doc | ||
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| <Orion> |
AMEN....... weidmannsheil martin | ||
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| One of Us |
G'day, further to Doc Garnetts post, on abet I took my R93 in .270 to the local range. One 5 shot group ran .80 MOA. then another 5 shot group was fired where the rifle was dissasembled between shots. That group was 1 MOA. Sure, it isn't the best looking rifle on the market, but with performance like that, who cares? Not me! But now my 95 BBF in 7x57r/12g is finally here, I guess the time has come to bid farewell to my R93. I would like to keep it, but the BBF will do about 95% of my hunting. Cheers, Dave. Non Illegitium Carborundum Cheers, Dave. Aut Inveniam Viam aut Faciam. | |||
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| one of us |
I PH in Australia, it does get VERY dusty there in the dry season and I have seen hunters have problems with the R93, apparently dust related. One hunter had daily problems and wrote a letter to Blaser when he got home. They replied to him that he should carry a can of dry compressed air to blow the dust out of the action periodically WHILE HUNTING. I made the suggestion, that I would tell them where to stick that can of compressed air. Needless to say, I DON"T think that it is a good dangerous game gun, nor do I think you will ever see a PH carrying one. In fact all the PH's I know, privately refer to it, "as that plastic p.o.s.". | |||
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| One of Us |
G'day, Yes it does get dusty here, depending on where you go. I used the same technique I used for my M-4 and austeyr when I was still in the army. Drilube, no moisture to collect dust, and regular cleaning. But since I do that with all my firearms, I cannot say for sure if the problem avoided, simply because it never occured. Several guides I know use Blasers, mostly the Offroad. Having said that, all my DG rifles were CRF Winchester M 70s, in either 375 H&H or 416 Rem. Nice rifle, relatively inexpensive, accurate and reliable. Enough said. Cheers, Dave. Non Illegitium Carborundum Cheers, Dave. Aut Inveniam Viam aut Faciam. | |||
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| One of Us |
This question has been asked before,This is a highly contested subject. There are people who love them and people that think there junk. I love mine and have 3 with five barrels. I have used mine all over the world, 0 degrees to 90 degree . I have never had a problem , My buddies all shoot one also. It's just like anything else it's all in what you like and can aford.It's a matter of prefrence and opinion . | |||
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| One of Us |
I have to agree with blaser93. Aside from the political forum, this subject seems to polarize people like no other. I have used one for 7 years with no problems, and will be sorry to see it go. I work part time as a gunsmith, and if there is one rifle that will send me broke, it is the R93. They just do not need any work done to them. Some people don't like them, that's fine. It would be a tame sort of world if we all liked the same thing. Cheers, Dave. Non Illegitium Carborundum Cheers, Dave. Aut Inveniam Viam aut Faciam. | |||
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| One of Us |
I have been intrigued by the Blaser as well. It is highly accurate and the switch barrel system does offer practicality, especially in terms of airline transport. However, most PHs do not trust it. Due to the fact that it has no bolt stop. A serious blow back is possible. Additionally, there are just too many parts that could potentially malfunction. I doubt I will ever purchase one. | |||
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One of Us |
Out of all of my rifles, be it my Stutzens, CRF M98's,push feed's or Double rifle,my R93 Attache is usually the gun I grab first, be it a weekend up the hill's stalking Boar, Ibex in Mongolia or Cape Buffalo in Zimbabwe.I just like the balance, the accuracy, the safty,the ability to be taken down, scope and all and stored in a small case for transport, a great thing for travel, my Case fits in my canvas and leather luggage Bag, out of sight. Haven't had any problems with it after all this time, so i'll keep useing it, mind you it will be my double470 and Husky9.3 on my up coming trip to the Zambezi. | |||
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one of us |
FWIW, I have had a R93 for about 9 or 10 years (ish) now and although I rarely use it myself, it gets a lot of use as a "loaner" to clients. We also get our fair share of clients using their own blasers - from my experience they're extremely accurate and reliable and the faster reload makes a considerable difference when hunting. (Some clients shoot better than others) We hunt in very dusty conditions and I've never seen a jam of any kind. That isn't to say they don't jam but I've never seen a jam caused by dust or anything else. sure they're ugly as sin - but from my experience they work just fine and as a rifle for loaning to (sometimes ham fisted) clients they're perfect. | |||
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| one of us |
Over the last twenty years I have done a little winter biathalon shooting. Good training; get the heart rate very high with skiing up and down the hills, then stop and shoot. Anyway the Fortner style bolt on my old Anschutz has the same (manipulation) action as the Blaser bolt. Bang, flick, flick, bang, flick, flick, bang, etc. Very fast. I don't have an R93 hunting rifle yet, but I have played with an R93 LRSII sniper rifle for three years. I traded an old Rolex submariner that I no longer wore (my rural patients thought wearing it was tantamount to "putting on airs") for the LRS II in .308. That puppy will hold as tight as I am able out to 700 meters. Bang, flick, flick, bang. To my way of thinking it is the same old story; perform appropriate maintenance and training with the weapons platform until no conscious thought is required to employ it. Bang, flick, flick, bang. Tomorrow I'll post a picture of it with the suppressor installed. That should please the purists. lawndart  | |||
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| one of us |
Saeeds guns are on a Dakota action in 375-404.. I'm with Saeed on this one, I would not hunt with a Blaser, like most things out of Germany they are over engineered IMO... I have yet to find anything to compare with a pre 64 M-70 or better yet a properly set up Model 98 Mauser... Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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| One of Us |
Ray, so let me get this right, the blaser is over engineered, and it weighs 2.7kg? Sold! No question that a decent M70 (either pre 64, or the more recent CRF M70) or a properly set up mauser are very nice rifles. I don't think you wil find too many people to argue against the point that mauser got it right with the M98. My point is, how much did you pay to get your properly set up mauser? Here in Australia, you can buy a cased Blaser Offroad, fit a Swarovski, and still have change from the sum a good gunsmith will charge to build a custom M98. If all you are after is a machine which is accurate, reliable and easy to use, and doesn't require a lot of expensive gunsmithing, go with the modern technology. Some of the people who post here will find this to be an anathema, but for me, guns are just tools I use to harvest game. I don't care about looks, just function. And Blasers work, period. Cheers, Dave. Non Illegitium Carborundum Cheers, Dave. Aut Inveniam Viam aut Faciam. | |||
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| one of us |
The bottom line is a lot of people don't like the Blaser because there is no need to tinker with them. They work great out of the box. You don't have to bed them or do a trigger job or a rebarrel. The rifle loonies just can't stand to buy a rifle out of the box without doing something to it. It just goes against their nature. If you can live with out of the box perfection the Blaser is for you. | |||
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| one of us |
I'll add to my previous comments that the other really useful thing about the Blaser is that you can switch from right to left handed bolts -very useful with a loaner! | |||
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One of Us |
I have two R93s, a S-2 (for another month), and a K95. Here's my Blaser top ten! 10. Best wood for cheapest price! 9. Scope mount system, I love it! 8. Like Steve said, its damn near ambidextrious. 7. Untel copied by Chapuis and Merkel it's unique! 6. It's fast to reload. 5. It's accurate! All mine are better than 1.5 inch guns. 4. Anyone can reload it while keeping the butt on there shoulder. 3. You can go from 222 to 416 in about 60 seconds. No other gun has this much versatility. 2. For $7000 you can get a rifle totally set up and engraved with best quality wood, try that with a custom rifle! (the R93 Super Lux) For $1800 you can get a synthetic stocked platform in any caliber you want. 1. It is the safest bolt action rifle in the world. Decocked with one in the barrel, push it down and forward and fire! Here are the things I don't like about it. 1. Cost, until you get into the upper guns they are steep to get into. 2. Price of scope mounts and accessorys. 3. My addiction to add more barrels, rifles, and collect more Blasers. The worst aspect of all! | |||
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| One of Us |
D99, yes, I know what you are talking about. After using my 95BBF, now my wife wants her own. Complete with "the engraving of the cute deer, oh and that nice wood with the beautiful grain". There goes my new DGR. Cheers, Dave. Non Illegitium Carborundum. Cheers, Dave. Aut Inveniam Viam aut Faciam. | |||
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| one of us |
HuntingMAx, Quote "Afterwards he gave the rifle to a gunsmith who repaired the sear and than he soldit for less than 40% of the retail price" Endquote The R93 has a searLESS trigger. Do you know what you're talking about? | |||
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one of us |
I just added an 8x57 JS barrel, and a 6,5x55 SE. And I am waiting for my 10,3x60R ! Oh well, they are wonderful rifles. Shot my .280 Rem this morning on the range, again very pleased with the accuracy Aleko Hits count, misses don't | |||
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| One of Us |
When is Blaser going to do a .404 Jeffery? (and 458 Lott?)  | |||
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| One of Us |
My Hero D99 | |||
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| one of us |
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| one of us |
I think ALF put his finger squarely on the underlying issue. The US designs could be tolerated and even enjoyed if they were executed properly. When I buy a US gun it is invariably "pre-owned", and with the following plan in mind: pull the barrel, have the action trued and "blue printed", have a good quality barrel fitted and chambered by a talented gunsmith, get an after market stock (usually from McMillan), bed it well, and then enjoy a nice rifle. In the last several years I have bought offerings from Sako, Blaser and Steyr. For those I have generally just fitted a scope and gone shooting. Unfortunately Berretta is forcing Sako to follow the US manufacturing model, with predictable results. The next US military rifle will come from H&K. Not the XM-8, but the 416 model. In one fell swoop it addressed and corrected all design and manufacturing deficiencies of the M-16/M-4 family of weapons. LD | |||
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| One of Us |
Lawndart, SHHH! you will put all us gunsmiths out of work if the secret gets out! most of my work is fixing problems with the USAs 'Big Three', and doing custom Mausers. Also a bit of fixing peoples half-assed attempts at home gunsmithing. If people catch on to the fact they can buy an out of the box gun that just plain works, for about half what they would have to pay us, we are in trouble! Cheers, Dave. Non Illegitium Carborundum. Cheers, Dave. Aut Inveniam Viam aut Faciam. | |||
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one of us |
What I find most interesting with this thread is the number of the original posters that are not members of AR any longer, at least not under the name used at the time. Could it have anything to do with their preferences in rifles...?   Sorry, couldn't resist, as usual...  Regards, Martin  ----------------------- A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition. - R. Kipling | |||
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| One of Us |
500Grains, You bring a valid point. If they can make a 300 Ultra why can't they make a 404? I was thinking it was because they couldn't make the extractor that big, but then I remembered they make it for that old swiss military cartridge, so that's a shitty excuse. As much as I like Herr Blaser's rifle, I don't want one in a caliber bigger than 375, 45 Blaser, or 9.3x64. I still like Mauser 98s (not ever again winchester m70s) for things that go bump in the night. Then again, even in Alaska I wouldn't be hunting alone, so it would be acceptable if you were backed up by someone with a big hairy double or a M98 in a .400 plus magnum. | |||
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| One of Us |
Blaser offers a lot of queer, low-volume chamberings, such as 7.5 Swiss. Surely they would sell a lot more in .404 Jeff and 458 Lott. It appears Blaser is missing an opportunity. | |||
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| One of Us |
500, your up early! It's 1520 here, and I am going to call the parents in Casper in an hour. Wasn't expecting anyone from home to be awake! | |||
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| One of Us |
Be careful, Aleko loves that caliber! | |||
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