What percentage run after taking the bullet and what percentage drop quickly?

Would you recommend a solid for the first shot or an expanding bullet for the first shot?

Don't know how you define "far". Mine both went about 20 yards and 40 yards after a single shot with a 300 grain TSX.

It's generally not recommended to use a solid for a first shot when you have so many better premium bullet choices these days.

quote:

Originally posted by Muletrain:
What percentage run after taking the bullet and what percentage drop quickly?

Would you recommend a solid for the first shot or an expanding bullet for the first shot?

Unless hit in the CNS, all run to varying degrees and drop if hit well.

Hit I mean in the chest, hitting the heart, aorta, both lungs etc.

Hit anywhere else - regardless of caliber - they will run and you will have a hard chase on your hands.

I only used solids on buffalo on my first safari, as the other bullets I had were Winchester Silvertips, which are not known to be good for big game animals.

I have only used copper HP bullets on buffalo in our 375/404 rifles, and found them exceeding good.

Thank you.

Which commercially loaded bullet would you recommend for someone who does not reload?

quote:

Originally posted by Muletrain:
Thank you.

Which commercially loaded bullet would you recommend for someone who does not reload?

I have no idea who loads ammo with HP copper bullets, but I suspect there some.

Also, there are some companies that offer custom loaded ammo for your specific need.

quote:

Originally posted by Muletrain:
Thank you.

Which commercially loaded bullet would you recommend for someone who does not reload?

A premium bullet that your rifle shoots well.

Double Tap offers a nice 270 gr TSX in 375 H&H (~2800 fps), which would be a good buffalo load and plains game load. AIU

Barnes, Hornady and Federal all offer ammo loaded with premium bullets (NP, TSX, GMX). See which one your rifle likes and find a solid load that will group with them.
As far as softs and/or solids, many PH's have their own preferences depending on their own experience. One PH advised me to load all softs because he shot all solids, another wanted the first 2 shots (chamber and top round in mag) softs and the rest solids. Your PH will have more confidence in you if you take his advice and most of them know what they are talking about.

quote:

Originally posted by Muletrain:
What percentage run after taking the bullet and what percentage drop quickly?

Would you recommend a solid for the first shot or an expanding bullet for the first shot?

Bored?

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Muletrain:
What percentage run after taking the bullet and what percentage drop quickly?

Would you recommend a solid for the first shot or an expanding bullet for the first shot?

Bored?

The other thread where people were talking about shooting buffalo multiple times made me wonder if a buffalo that is shot properly with a heart / lung shot will drop or run a short distance. And of a lot of these instances were the hunter pumping more shots into a buffalo that was getting ready to drop.

You could also try these guys for ammunition.

I only have 1 buff to my credit so take what I say with a beer chaser.
I shot my buff at close to 100yds in the chest, he wheeled around & made maybe 50yds & died.
Fed. Prem. 375H&H 300gr Barnes TSX 1 shot

I had a slightly quartering on shot. I hit my buff solid (heart/lungs) with a 300grain Barnes TSX. Buff went about 150 yards before it stopped. It was in a herd of probably 60 buff so they probably pushed him. The herd was gone, and he was staggering around. I put insurance into him with my .500NE (its always fun to warm up a double), but he would have been done after the one from the .375.

Remington factory 300grn Swift A Frame do the job.
Softs because you don't know if you are going to be taking the shot with another animal as a background.
Heart/lung shots will almost always run.
The distance they are likely to run will depend upon whether they are alone at the shot or being influenced by the effects of a herd and whether the animal is relaxed and unaware at the shot or already on alert and part pumped with adrenaline.

quote:

Originally posted by Muletrain:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Muletrain:
What percentage run after taking the bullet and what percentage drop quickly?

Would you recommend a solid for the first shot or an expanding bullet for the first shot?

Bored?

The other thread where people were talking about shooting buffalo multiple times made me wonder if a buffalo that is shot properly with a heart / lung shot will drop or run a short distance. And of a lot of these instances were the hunter pumping more shots into a buffalo that was getting ready to drop.

This is my opinion, it may not necessarily concur with that of the management.

I believe there are to distinct and differing styles of hunting Buffalo. Offensive and defensive.

Defensive; shooting from a distance greater than that of being within the Buffalo's personal space and usually not aware of the hunters. The buffalo being unaware, is what I believe makes the difference in shots taken and shots absorbed.

I believe there are far more one shot kills in this style due to the longer shot distance and the follow up being longer. The animal simply has more time to die.

Offensive; close, 10-25 yards. Buffalo are usually aware or suspicious of something being up. You are well within their "personal space."

You shoot, and with a DR, usually, if not always get the second barrel off in time. The follow up is closer, the Buffalo will still likely be on his feet (or her feet in Shootaway's case). A second salvo of two shots is normally the case for me. I see no reason, to get cheap with lead here. As long as the Buffalo is breathing, I'm shooting.

.02c

Steve

I have not shot buffalo, but I know they rarely fall dead instantly with a shot to the heart/lungs area, the caliber does´t matter it can be a .30-06 or a .600 they usually move a distance. That is not important, all the buffalo shot correctly with the first round will die in short order, way before they can become a threat.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Muletrain:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Muletrain:
What percentage run after taking the bullet and what percentage drop quickly?

Would you recommend a solid for the first shot or an expanding bullet for the first shot?

Bored?

The other thread where people were talking about shooting buffalo multiple times made me wonder if a buffalo that is shot properly with a heart / lung shot will drop or run a short distance. And of a lot of these instances were the hunter pumping more shots into a buffalo that was getting ready to drop.

This is my opinion, it may not necessarily concur with that of the management.

I believe there are to distinct and differing styles of hunting Buffalo. Offensive and defensive.

Defensive; shooting from a distance greater than that of being within the Buffalo's personal space and usually not aware of the hunters. The buffalo being unaware, is what I believe makes the difference in shots taken and shots absorbed.

I believe there are far more one shot kills in this style due to the longer shot distance and the follow up being longer. The animal simply has more time to die.

Offensive; close, 10-25 yards. Buffalo are usually aware or suspicious of something being up. You are well within their "personal space."

You shoot, and with a DR, usually, if not always get the second barrel off in time. The follow up is closer, the Buffalo will still likely be on his feet (or her feet in Shootaway's case). A second salvo of two shots is normally the case for me. I see no reason, to get cheap with lead here. As long as the Buffalo is breathing, I'm shooting.

.02c

Steve

Slipped a little Chipolopolo in on us.

Only one buff to my credit but I took mine last month with SSG. Hornady 300 grain solid, one shot, both shoulders, heart and lung, through and through at 40 yards. He ran about 40 yards and died. I was quite satisfied!
John

I have opened up more than one Buff and found the first round penetrated the heart and kept going. In almost each of those cases the Buff ran off. This is why, as Steve says, you shoot Buff until they are down and stop moving. They simply don't understand that the first shot killed them!

I do, however, prefer something a bit larger for Buff. In my case most of my approximately dozen Buff have fallen to my .416Rem, shooting 400gr Swift A-Frames.

quote:

Defensive; shooting from a distance greater than that of being within the Buffalo's personal space and usually not aware of the hunters. The buffalo being unaware, is what I believe makes the difference in shots taken and shots absorbed.

I would classify all my hunting as the above.

I like to kill an animal without him knowing my presence, if at all possible.

I have absolutely no desire to get into a silly, and false, situation where I can brag that I am "letting him decide how he wants to die", despite the fact I am the one holding a rifle in my hand and waiting to shoot a charging buffalo like a fish in a barrel.

That is for silly Hollywood "look how brave I am" idiots.

Most definitely NOT hunters.

I have been in very few African hunts but i guided water buffalo since 20 years ago and i have been in some culling operations .MY ADVICE DONT USE SOLIDS ,SOLIDS ARE FOR PROS IN SPECIAL TASKS .

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Defensive; shooting from a distance greater than that of being within the Buffalo's personal space and usually not aware of the hunters. The buffalo being unaware, is what I believe makes the difference in shots taken and shots absorbed.

I would classify all my hunting as the above.

I like to kill an animal without him knowing my presence, if at all possible.

I have absolutely no desire to get into a silly, and false, situation where I can brag that I am "letting him decide how he wants to die", despite the fact I am the one holding a rifle in my hand and waiting to shoot a charging buffalo like a fish in a barrel.

That is for silly Hollywood "look how brave I am" idiots.

Most definitely NOT hunters.

My Heros

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Defensive; shooting from a distance greater than that of being within the Buffalo's personal space and usually not aware of the hunters. The buffalo being unaware, is what I believe makes the difference in shots taken and shots absorbed.

I would classify all my hunting as the above.

I like to kill an animal without him knowing my presence, if at all possible.

I have absolutely no desire to get into a silly, and false, situation where I can brag that I am "letting him decide how he wants to die", despite the fact I am the one holding a rifle in my hand and waiting to shoot a charging buffalo like a fish in a barrel.

That is for silly Hollywood "look how brave I am" idiots.

Most definitely NOT hunters.

My Heros

Capstick is most definitely my hero too.

Sullivan is most definitely NOT!

At least Mark stands in the face of danger.

In that silly Sportsman on film series with Capstick, he is standing there talking with Cotton Gordon I think. I hippo ran by no closer than 200 yards and Capstick nearly shit himself.

I submit it's a great accomplishment to stalk up
CLOSE to your game animal and beat it's natural
defenses: olfactory, auditory, vision.

I just don't want to shoot at a DG animal or any
quarry, when it's still far away enough to stalk
closer to.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:
At least Mark stands in the face of danger.

In that silly Sportsman on film series with Capstick, he is standing there talking with Cotton Gordon I think. I hippo ran by no closer than 200 yards and Capstick nearly shit himself.

Steve,

I go on safari to hunt.

I do not go on safari to court danger in any way.

I like to go back home to my family alive, and plan my next safari.

I am not too sure about Capstick, as I have heard so many rumors, I am not sure what to believe.

But, at least he is a great writer. He was instrumental in getting me to go hunting in Africa.

And I have had so much enjoyment from that, I really feel I owe him one.

What I see about Mark Sullivan and how he portrays himself in his films, leaves me with nothing but disgust in his behavior.

Especially taking into consideration my own experience of over 30 years of hunting, and seeing how animals behave and react while hunting.

That is my opinion, and you, and others, of course have as much right to yours as well.

Saeed nailed it. Capstick was a great writer. I was already hooked on Africa, but he helped. Whether he was the greatest PH known to man or not, his books are good reading.

Sullivan's videos are not good viewing, except perhaps for shot placemnt on charges. I might buy them for that purpose only, but ..

Most tourist hunters are not likely to encounter one.

I am not with Saeed's experience numbers wise, but I have shot more than a few, and have shot them with multiple calibers. To be honest, my furthest shot on buffalo was right at 100 yards, and I hit him poorly (just one lung) and he ran all of 50 yards or so and laid down.

The majority of them have been between 25-50 yards and they run less than 100 yards when hit well. The 2 that fit Steve's criteria for good distance (under 25 yards) one was iced (with a solid) the other ran 100 yards or so then fell over.

It's my feeling that hitting them with a .416 results in maybe 10% less running - not a "statistical sample" but rather a feeling when compared to a .375, at least with my shooting.

I have seen only one fall to a .470, and that was a brain shot, so I can't really say if it holds further with a bigger gun. Head shots with a bigger rifle do seem to have a better chance of knocking them out, but again, that is a feeling rather than a "fact"

Drop at the shot is 2/13.

The only buffalo that I have seen go straight down were either spined or brained. The spined ones were very much alive, just immobilized and took a lot more to shoot the wiggle out of them.

On average I've found that the buff I've shot with the .375 tended to go all rodeo and managed to travel farther than those hit with the .458. A couple .375 buff just lined out and headed for the horizon.

The buffalo I killed with the .458 were more apt to just hump up and not move very far. That does promote easier second and subsequent shots, which could also be a factor.

Sometimes I think that the inability to shoot quick follow up shots has more to do with one shot kills than anything. In my mind the ability to land multiple hits quickly and drop it in sight is more indicative of good shooting than waiting 1/2 hour to see how it turned out.

Regarding solids, I won't use them anymore.

Somehow this tread turned into a new MS vs Ethics tread..

I have only one buffalo to write about , shot in the heart lung area at 180 yards, 300gr tsx , walked about 50 metres and was done.

But I have spend my fair share of time hunting all the other plains game pluss our norwegian species.

It is a fact that adrenalin-rise in an animal is crucial to the distance that animal is gonna run after the shot.
An animal at eas , not wearing any danger or are stressed will go down a lot quicker than an animal that has been chased around and pushed.

And that leads to the conclusion that the first shot should be placed correctly, an animal that has a poor first shot will walk a long distance after the second despite if the second is placed in a vital area.

When it comes to bullets i dont see the point in a solid first shot any longer as long as you have got modern good bullets like the barnes tsx..

just my 2 cents..

-Jostein

We are wrongly assuming all buffalo will react the same way to the shot.

They don't!

Some will run a few yards and lay down, some run a few yards and stop. Giving the chance of finishing them off.

Others will run all day and all you will see is their tracks.

All with similar bullet placement.

My only experience with buffalo was twenty years ago. My rifle was a .375 and he PH said to bring only solids. So I took Hornady 300 grain FMJs. I had been practicing all summer shooting off hand at various ranges.

The animal was alone and feeding at about 50 yards. The first shot was heart/lung and the buffalo took off running in the direction he was facing. I continued shooting and hit him three more times until he was out of sight.

I reloaded with three cartridges as we ran after the buffalo. He was standing a short distance away with his head hanging down and lots of blood running from his nose and mouth.

I fired the three shots into the chest which had no apparent affect. The PH fired twice with his .458 which also had no apparent affect. The buffalo just stood there bleeding profusely.

He finally fell over as we were reloading our rifles.

Later that day I visited the skinning shed and had a look at the chest cavity. There were several finger size holes and two thumb size holes. So the shots were all penetrating both sides of the chest cavity.

I have always wondered if that first shot would have taken the animal down if we had just waited a while for it to die.

Steve,

Sportsman on Film. That's going back a few years. I believe it was Gordon Cundall and not Cotton Gordon but I do remember that hippo at quite distance jumped the shit out of Capstick.

I apologize to all as this as nothing to do with using a 375 on buffalo but MS and Capstick always provide entertainment.

Mark

Double Tap also sells heavier than caliber rounds (350 grain Woodleigh Weldcore and Solids) for the .375 and I have used them on my last three safaris which have included Buffalo, Elephant, Hippo, Croc and Eland. I thinks this weight bullet bridges the gap somewhat between the .375 and the .416. An added bonus, at least in my rifle, was that both zeroed to exactly the same point of aim and both were tack drivers.

quote:

Originally posted by Muletrain:
Thank you.

Which commercially loaded bullet would you recommend for someone who does not reload?

Trophy Bonded Bear claws, Swift A Frames, Barnes TSX will all do the job well. When following a couple of bulls I like clients to load a "soft" on top, followed by a couple of solids underneath for the inevitable intitial running away shots.

I got some good advice one time in a conversation with an old hand PH. As long as the buffalo is on his feet, keep shooting! I lost a buffalo I thought was properly shot in the shoulder. We saw dust fly and can only assume the bullet veered forward into the brisket area. That cost me about $1500 and a day and a half wasted looking for him. I sure wish I had shot him twice. I was using a 375 by the way.

quote:

Originally posted by Thierry Labat:

quote:

Originally posted by Muletrain:
Thank you.

Which commercially loaded bullet would you recommend for someone who does not reload?

Trophy Bonded Bear claws, Swift A Frames, Barnes TSX will all do the job well. When following a couple of bulls I like clients to load a "soft" on top, followed by a couple of solids underneath for the inevitable intitial running away shots.

I have shot many buffalo in the rear end as they were running away, almost always they just stagger and drop.

Our bullets penetrate from the tail to the neck.

That is what happens when you put enough speed on a mono soft. No flies on those things.

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Steve,

Sportsman on Film. That's going back a few years. I believe it was Gordon Cundall and not Cotton Gordon but I do remember that hippo at quite distance jumped the shit out of Capstick.

I apologize to all as this as nothing to do with using a 375 on buffalo but MS and Capstick always provide entertainment.

Mark

And entertainment is essentially what this sport is all about!!

Steve

I have only shot one buffalo with a 375 H&H. My load was trophy bonded bearclaws.
My first shot was side shot from 70 yds. The Buff immediately turned 90 degrees his butt facing me. With the PH yelling "shoot him again, shoot him in the ass!" I put two more into his rear. He turned again now giving me a side shot to his opposite side. One more round into the shoulder and he went down.
I might have put three into his rear, memory is slightly dim, but in this case while it took 4 to 5 shots to put him down he didn't run.