First I would like to congratulate Tim on a 60 pounder, That is a good elephant. We are pretty certain this is the elephant Phillip Smyth and I saw and thought he was 55 tops, same shape/broken tusks as pics I have, and since Tim was there the day after I left. We got very close, took lots of pics, We let him walk, glad he touched 60 for Tim.

My issue is the bull is clearly shot in the river bed between the park and the hunting area. Tim's comment said "our side". So this tells me he was in the river between the park and the hunting area.

WE WERE TOLD IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS WE COULD NOT SHOOT ANYTHING IN THE RIVER BED. Our gamescout would not even walk in the river bed looking for tracks. When we did look for tracks in the river bed, he followed up along the top of the river bank.

This has nothing to do with Tim. Just pointing out that the rules changed from my hunt to Tim's in one day.
It appears to me that Nixon makes them up as he goes. OR the gamescout was given different directions for my hunt??? Buyer Beware...

And for those who think I have sour grapes, I took a 73 pounder in Zim two months later. Just pointing out the differences...

I always thought if a river bed was a border between two different hunting areas or a hunting area and a park you could shoot in that river bed.

Correct me if i am wrong.

I shot a bushbig in a river bed which was the border of two different hunting areas and there was no problem.

Mike

We've walked a lot of riverbeds in Zim and the only time the PH was nervous about shooting in it was because if you shoot and the animal runs off into the wrong side of the boundary, it's lost.

Crocs are shot in riverbed boundaries all the time.

quote:

Originally posted by miketaylor:
I always thought if a river bed was a border between two different hunting areas or a hunting area and a park you could shoot in that river bed.

Correct me if i am wrong.

I shot a bushbig in a river bed which was the border of two different hunting areas and there was no problem.

Mike

You are right Mike.

Rivers and river beds are boundaries, but have always been accessible to both sides.

Guys you are missing the point. WE WERE TOLD WE COULD NOT SHOOT ANYTHING IS THE RIVERBED BY THE GAMESCOUT. Are you going to defy the local authority in a foreign country??? I am trying to find out why I was not allowed and the next guy was? If in fact those are the rules in this area.

Maybe the game scout was wrong, like TSA and airline personnel.

Glad you had a second successful elephant hunt, but it is time to let the first hunt go and move on. BTW, You aren't the first person not to kill a elephant at Malapati. Most of us have already made our decision about your Malapati issues.

Jeff - The Game Scouts work for Zim National Parks, not Nixon. He doesn't take direction/orders from Nixon or SSG either? This would likely be some rule he's made up, certainly not something he got from Nixon/SSG. I've seen scouts come up with all kinds of different things, that are not generally applied by other scouts in the same area, etc. Not exactly sure what that was about, seems odd?

Just as others mention here, the riverbed itself is generally used by both sides - hippos/crocs are almost always shot in rivers/riverbeds just the same.

All interested parties and most of the posters here are friends of mine, and I ain't picking sides.

That said, and having been to Malapati, I was told the center of the river was the boundary of the hunting area and that we could hunt and shoot up to that point.

Granted, shooting on the boundary would be short sighted as an animal running across the boundary is typically lost.

Based on my experience, I can also see that lack of communication is an issue and that different hunters or different groups could receive different instructions from the staff, scouts, trackers, or even the local PHs conducting the hunts.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Jeff - The Game Scouts work for Zim National Parks, not Nixon. He doesn't take direction/orders from Nixon or SSG either? This would likely be some rule he's made up, certainly not something he got from Nixon/SSG. I've seen scouts come up with all kinds of different things, that are not generally applied by other scouts in the same area, etc. Not exactly sure what that was about, seems odd?

Just as others mention here, the riverbed itself is generally used by both sides - hippos/crocs are almost always shot in rivers/riverbeds just the same.

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I just found it VERY ODD as well that is why I am asking. Maybe we should have pushed the point, but he was so adamate about it. Happen stance, yea that's it

Jeff
I am not picking sides either, when i was there i was told that the middle of the river was the line.
Were you told the rules by the Nat. Parks scout or the council scout?
I know they hunt with both scouts in the truck so they can hunt most anywhere.

quote:

Originally posted by Chris Lozano:
Jeff
I am not picking sides either, when i was there i was told that the middle of the river was the line.
Were you told the rules by the Nat. Parks scout or the council scout?
I know they hunt with both scouts in the truck so they can hunt most anywhere.

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NO PICKING SIDES NECESSARY FOR ANYONE
I Think it was a Nat. Parks scout but not sure, we had one of Nixon's main guys on our truck too. The scout and Nixon's guy never stopped talking. NEVER. One would think if someone had the wrong information they would say something.

In 2011 I had to pass on a tuskless bull ele in the riverbed. Seems the game scout wanted a bribe to allow us to shoot him in the border riverbed, even though this is legal, according to all my sources. The bottom line is, you do what the game scout says, or you will pay a price.

Different Scouts perhaps?

I'm one of those guys.
Shot buff in riverbed ( Limpopo - Sengve II) and it ran into RSA Kruger.
Oops.
Paid up and kept on going. Nobody's fault but mine.
As far as what Nixon said. Middle of the river, but not pushing it.
Depends on the scout.
Same thing when I hunt around Yellowstone and Glacier NP

On my first trip to Zim we had a tribal council ask us to shoot two problem Cape Buffalo bulls that were harassing a village. After a full day of looking for them, the bulls turned out to be cows. The Game Scout said I could shoot them for $1,500 each. I declined. He quickly changed his mind and said we could kill them for free if the Scouts got the meat. Bang Bang Bang, two dead cows. We got our ass chewed out by the village women because they wanted the meat, but the Scout wouldn't let them have it. Anyway the purpose of the story is to show that Game Scouts sometimes write the rules as they go.

Our game scout told us that the middle of the river was the boundary, and the ele was well on our half when he dropped. We had that situation with a buff there the year before, and they would not let my friend shoot. They said the buff was clearly on the other half of the riverbed. If the whole river is a boundary, shooting a hippo in a river between park and concession or two concessions, or the Zambezi between Zim and Zambia would all be illegal. I am not arguing the fact, Just telling you what the game scout with us told us and that is why I shot.

After talking to Phillip, I don't think it was the same ele. He told me the one you guys passed had a bad limp, and this one certainly did not.

Jeeeessuusss Chrrriissst....no wonder there are people who don't want to post hunt reports anymore.

quote:

Originally posted by tendrams:
Jeeeessuusss Chrrriissst....no wonder there are people who don't want to post hunt reports anymore.

+1

+2

Some seem to not appreciate that PMs and emails can be used to resolve issues versus posting. Why cast some shadow over someone else's hunt because you had a bad experience on yours?

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
+2

Some seem to not appreciate that PMs and emails can be used to resolve issues versus posting. Why cast some shadow over someone else's hunt because you had a bad experience on yours?

+3

The issue of what constitutes a border boundary and where one can and cannot shoot within that boundary, be it a riverbed or a roadway, is a valid topic for discussion on this board.

It is very apparent to me that game scout's are making their own interpretations of this issue and those interpretations are having a direct, and often negative, affect on us as african hunters. If you haven't been in this position perhaps you don't recognize it as a serious issue. I have experienced it twice, once in the riverbed as described earlier and the second time on a border road, with the animal moving from the park into the hunting concession. Two different game scouts and two different interpretations.

Bottom line is that you had better do what the game scout says, right or wrong, unless you want your life to become substantially more difficult.

I do not see this thread as designed to denigrate anyones hunt. JMO.

. . . then just start a thread about game scouts, hunting boundaries and riverbeds without reference to someone else's hunt . . . including using "Tim's hunt with SSG" as the topic. Does not take a rocket scientist to understand how this discussion could have raised and framed in a generic way versus the way it was. JMO.

Mike-

I won't dispute that would have been better, but this is AR and threads rarely develop as originally intended or interpreted.

I think this is a valid discussion, and I agree with Mike that I wish I was not the thread title, but I guarantee Nixon didn't make up the rules as he saw fit. This was straight from the game scout, not Nixon. I am sure there are discrepancies between those guys, but it seems that the overall consensus here is that we have been told that either the whole riverbed is fair game (sorry Andrew) or at least the 1/2 closest to the concession is. If they tell you otherwise, I would really want to know too, especially if it cost me an animal. Bottom line is that the game scouts can pretty much do what they want...

When my partner and I hunted Chewore South a few years back, the two scouts had some lively discussions about the riverbed boundaries a couple times. Once it was OK for me to hunt tuskless, but not for my friend to hunt buffalo?

Talk about confusing to all involved!

quote:

Originally posted by Tim Herald:
I think this is a valid discussion, and I agree with Mike that I wish I was not the thread title, but I guarantee Nixon didn't make up the rules as he saw fit. This was straight from the game scout, not Nixon. I am sure there are discrepancies between those guys, but it seems that the overall consensus here is that we have been told that either the whole riverbed is fair game (sorry Andrew) or at least the 1/2 closest to the concession is. If they tell you otherwise, I would really want to know too, especially if it cost me an animal. Bottom line is that the game scouts can pretty much do what they want...

I am sure this has nothing to do with Nixon.

But, he should know what the rules are, and makes sure the game scouts know them too.

We have had instances where game scouts try all sorts of silly things.

Telling them we would either use the sat phone to call headquarters or a promise of a drive there quickly solves it.

Not taking sides. I agree with Chris Lazano
I hunted same area Malapati , Sengwa 1 & 2 two years ago
I needed a buffalo, Nixon had one on Quota that he was gracious enough to permit me to hunt with my PH
The middle of the River was what I was Instructed was the line of demakation.

Hunting animals a few feet from a park boundary is surely tempting fate.

quote:

Originally posted by mohan:
Not taking sides. I agree with Chris Lazano
I hunted same area Malapati , Sengwa 1 & 2 two years ago
I needed a buffalo, Nixon had one on Quota that he was gracious enough to permit me to hunt with my PH
The middle of the River was what I was Instructed was the line of demakation.

Mohan

were you hunting Sengwe in 2012? I was there in September.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
+2

Some seem to not appreciate that PMs and emails can be used to resolve issues versus posting. Why cast some shadow over someone else's hunt because you had a bad experience on yours?

+3

I had the same thing come up while I was there. According to Nixon, my PH and the other game scouts the center of the river is the boundary. It is perfectly legal to shoot something on your side. My game scout however did not agree. He did not want us to shoot anything in the river, walk in the river bed or hunt anywhere near it. I never could get a straight answer. To me, it basically boiled down too a power struggle between him and the Safari company.

It did not effect my hunt by the way.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
Hunting animals a few feet from a park boundary is surely tempting fate.

+1 Animals that are wounded can't be pursued into the park.

Years ago a friend shot a giraffe, and wounded it. He ran a bit after it, trying to shoot it in the head as the head was bobbing above the tree tops, without any success.

He could not run very far, so stopped, and me and the PH had to continue the chase.

The giraffe never gave us a clear shot, until he got to a road.

I put a bullet into the root of his tail, and he dropped, smack in the idle of the road dividing the concessions.

I think we must have ran for a couple of miles.

I hunted with SSG Safaris in 2012. Had a wounded buff in the water, 5 yrs in, on our side in our sight. Come across this buff's bloodily hoof track on day 1. This was day 12! We were all excited that we could keep this wounded buff killed before it killed someone. We all concluded the buff was in the was to ease the pain. As we were making a plan for the approach, the game scout said that we had to be "400 meters from the edge of water to be legal"! Why? Was he afraid of a wound buff? Ready for hunt to be done? Who knows. I know Nixon was not happy with that game scout. Hopefully a lion got the buff before it got someone, tracker, hunter....

Game scout's call.

quote:

Originally posted by jeff h:
First I would like to congratulate Tim on a 60 pounder, That is a good elephant. We are pretty certain this is the elephant Phillip Smyth and I saw and thought he was 55 tops, same shape/broken tusks as pics I have, and since Tim was there the day after I left. We got very close, took lots of pics, We let him walk, glad he touched 60 for Tim.

My issue is the bull is clearly shot in the river bed between the park and the hunting area. Tim's comment said "our side". So this tells me he was in the river between the park and the hunting area.

WE WERE TOLD IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS WE COULD NOT SHOOT ANYTHING IN THE RIVER BED. Our gamescout would not even walk in the river bed looking for tracks. When we did look for tracks in the river bed, he followed up along the top of the river bank.

This has nothing to do with Tim. Just pointing out that the rules changed from my hunt to Tim's in one day.
It appears to me that Nixon makes them up as he goes. OR the gamescout was given different directions for my hunt??? Buyer Beware...

And for those who think I have sour grapes, I took a 73 pounder in Zim two months later. Just pointing out the differences...

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I would like to know where in the above Post I "cast Shadows" on Tim's hunt???
How about when I said "First I would like to Congratulate Tim" OR "That is a good elephant" OR "This has nothing to do with Tim"

I did not post this in Tim's hunt report as I did not want to "cast Shadows" on his hunt. As for the asking these questions by PM, I kind of thought this fourm was here so we could gain information. I have used it for that for my 15- 16 trips to Africa. I can hear the questions if I had not said location, time and which company. Most would have wanted to know and righly so.

Any shadows cast were cast in Nixons direction, and I make no bones about it. I have recieved MANY PM's on SSG since my personal hunt report there. I thought this fourm was not only to hear the good but also the bad. With 15-16 trips under my belt, I think I know the difference. I don't have a vested interest in Nixon's operation, I don't gain anything by telling the truth or a lie. I was just asking why the difference.
On the surface of this issue it seems, based on the creditable responses, Nixon had nothing to to with my game scout telling us we could not shoot in the riverbed. I would surmise from this topic, that if you are hunting with Nixon personally, this would not happen. I do know he sells quota to others and maybe this will serve to educate those that are not hunting with Nixon.

I have said all I am going to say on this thread Flame Away

Zim law states that you cannot shoot any animal within 400 meters of any National park, that is their buffer Zone.

You can hunt right onto the border of another hunting area though.

If an animal is shot in a river bed bordering a national park, it is fine as long as it is 400 meters or more from Said National park. But of Course one can get a difficult/corrupt game ranger at times, that does not understand the law, or is just a prick.

quote:

Originally posted by jeff h:
I would like to know where in the above Post I "cast Shadows" on Tim's hunt???

Really??? Your second paragraph of your first post. Absolute Bull Shit to do in a public forum.

This horse shit is precisely why I won't post any "detailed" reports on my hunts. Last one I did not even post a single photo for fear of clowns hiding behind their computer doing as you have done.

With 15-16 trips under your belt I am at a loss how you have not had first had experience of different rules that game scouts sometimes make us play by.

My experience with game scouts is that it often goes both ways. I've had a scout tell us we couldn't hunt in a lagoon on Lake Kariba because it was originally part of the Zambezi. The PH and I just shook our heads. And once when we needed some croc bait my PH pointed to a perfectly fine Puku and said "that one looks wounded" and the scout nodded his head to shoot for free. So in the end it will balance out, usually in the hunters favor, especially if the scout it hoping for a tip.

I was filming a hunt in Chewore South back in 2005. We were following a herd Buffalo and they crossed a main hunting road and stopped about 50 yards the other side. The client could have easily shot one of the bulls at the back but the game scout told us we had to wait until they were 400 meters away from the road before we could take a shoot.