I'm starting to give some thought to the rifle / bullet combo that I'll use for lion this June. Obviously, I want a soft, fast expending bullet.

A Square markets its LION LOAD as a specialty bullet for lions and leopards. Anyone have any experience with this bullet?

Otherwise, I guess I'm looking at the old reliable Nosler Partition.

Thoughts?

Will,

On a perfect broadside presentation the Lion Load might be perfect if a heavy bone is not hit. They are very soft. If Nosler Partitions shoot well in your rifle use them on the lion and you'll get explosive initial expansion but you'll get an exit also. Additionally the Partition will work great on about anything else you'd usea soft point for.

Mark

I would use a Partition. Two different PHs told me about problems with lion loads on solid shoulder hits on big cats.

I have never used either the A-Square Lion Load or the Nosler Partition.

But, I have shot 6 lions with Barnes X and our own Walterhog bullets.

Personally, I would not use the A-Square Lion Loads, as I have heard of them being far too soft on some occassions.

Will, Terry Wieland had a good bit to say about the A-Aquare "Lion Load" in his book "Dangerous Game Rifles." For what little it's worth, I happen to think that he's right in decrying them. I'm in a tiny minority here (and elsewhere) but the A-Square "Dead Tough" is a superb bullet, available in just anout any weight you desire. Superior Ammunition will be delighted to build the ammo for you (but bring your wallet).

Good hunting.

Not sure of the statistical accuracy of my observations(sample size 2) but nosler partitions and TSX both work well. Good exit holes, massive damage and only went less than fifty yards.

My .375 loves Barnes TSX so I think that is what I am sticking with for Lion & Leopard in June. All the small "soft" game I shot with it was DRT except the Bushbuck but he bled like a fire-hose. The same bullet went completely broadside through a Buffalo to end up lying under the skin on the other side.

I'm willing to listen to opinions on why this would not be the right bullet for Lion & Leopard though.

Hey Will,

In my opinion, federal's swift A frame and the bear claw is deadly on Lions as well as the woodleigh welcore!!

Cheers

I ,basically, only use Nosler Partitions and have for over 55 years. They shoot good in any rifle I have ever shot them in and I have never had a problem with them on game. I have used then on everything from Steinbuck to Cape Buffalo with total success. Actually why would anyone want to experiment with success. I tried Swift A frames once but never finished the box when they just punched a small hole in Impala and required multiple hits to kill. They were in my 30-06 and I was collecting bait animals. Switched back to my 375 for rest of safari. Gave the remaining ammo to the PH for plinking. The only other bullets I have used in 8 safaris have been Woodleigh solids and softs in calibers Nosler didn't make. Primarily my 470 and 416 Rigby.

Swift A-Frame. 1 shot=1 Lion. Study the vitals on Lion and it won't be an issue. As always (even on Impala ) shot placement is key.

I switched from NP to A-Frame after conducting tests on bullets, including NP, Barnes & Swift, on live game in Africa 11 years ago. The Swift A-Frame has killed them all (except Elephant & Hippo) for me. What caliber are you thinking to use?

Best of luck and my hope that you find a big one.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
What caliber are you thinking to use?

Back and forth between 416 Rem and 375H&H.

The Impala were perfectly placed shoulder shots and upon recovery of the first difficult kill it was found it was a 30 in 30 out hole with obviously NO expansion. It was tried on a second Impala with the same exact results. I decided at that time to stop using my 06 and go back to the 375 with perfect results. Accuracy was excellant with them and maybe in some peoples experience and in different applications they may be excellant bullets,they obviously are a good seller. I feel you should use a bullet,rifle,caliber,sights that you have perfect confidence in. I don't have this confidence with Swift's and I do with Nosler's.

Will, Two leopards and first was with a 300gr Hornady round nose cat was shot in chest and exit out his back hanging on a lion bait. Recovered bullet from tree next day. 35 yd shot
Second cat 300gr TSX spoke with the Barnes people and there bullet opens in the first 1.5 inches of penetration. Hit him high in back downward angle at 62yds. ranged. D.R.T.
But I use pristine TSX bullets new out of box and not ones that have been in magazine box. and damaged tips... In both rifles, I believe the TSX would drive full length of lions body.

Mike
Dead right under bait blood is the exit wound


Came in daylight

safari-lawyer -

I strongly suggest the .416 for your Lion. It is so much better (on everything) than the .375, of which I am not a fan. I've taken DG with both but have not even taken the .375 to Africa since getting my first .416Rem back in 1999.

BTW, the Swift A-Frame from the .416Rem is devastating. I have two one shot kills on buff with it and buff don't do bang-flops. Many other buff as the 1st out, Eland, etc. Remington loads the A-Frame in their Premium Safari line for good reason - exceptional and consistent performance.

The A2 lion load is known to be a soft bullet and is designed to be just that. On a broadside behind the shoulder shot it should work fine. Personally, I would not trust it on a shoulder or frontal chest shot (charge). I prefer a tougher bullet and the Nosler Partition would be my first choice.

465H&H

Will, most Lions are not huge animals by African game standards, but with the luck you're having this year, yours will probably top 500 lbs! Use enough gun...416 with SAF or NP....no worries!

I think I'd go with a Partition for a nice combo of bullet integrity and tissue disruption. The front of the bullet will expand and shred tissue, and the back will push on through and exit, even if the front comes apart. I don't think I'd want anything tougher, at least not for cats.

With regard to caliber choice, I think I'd go with the .375--specifically, with a 270 grain bullet for higher velocity. I don't think a .416 is necessary, and most people shoot a bit better with a .375 than a .416. Of course, if you shoot both guns equally well, then you'll have to focus on other factors. I think I'd rather have the higher velocity of the .375, since cats do seem affected by hydrostatic shock. Frankly, a .300 Win. Mag. works great on lions, and I wouldn't be afraid to use a .30-06, if it were legal. I apprenticed in Zambia this season and was lucky enough to be there for three lion kills. The first one, shot with a .375 H&H, ran into the brush and took a long time to die (creating a scary situation, by the way), but the bullet had hit low in his shoulder and hadn't touched any vitals. I don't think a .416 would have made a bit of difference in the outcome, except to the extent that a bigger, tougher bullet might have caused less bleeding and a slower death. The second lion was shot with a quartering shot through the chest with a .300, and he ran about 50 yards and fell dead. The third cat was shot broadside through the chest with a .375 RUM with an A-frame and made it maybe thirty feet before collapsing. If I remember correctly, each shot exited. For what it's worth, the PH I'm apprenticing under thinks a .300 is great for lions and wouldn't recommend a .416 unless the .416 happened to be a gun the shooter already had and shot best with. The client who used the .375 RUM also had a .416 Weatherby with him, but my boss suggested that he use the .375. It should be noted that both guns were braked, so recoil was not really part of the equation. It's just that a .416 is not necessary (and perhaps even not as good) on a 400-500 pound animal.

The 286gr NP seemed to work fine i

Year before last my client shot the biggest lion 500lbs+ Johnny has shot in Save. He used Johnny's 375. I think the Swift A frame is the way to go. I have shot springbok upto buffalo and no problem.

I personally feel the 375 is the way to go as the lighter recoil will make for more accurate shot placement which is far more important than this bullet debate.

Arjun Reddy
www.huntersnetworks.com

Will, All bets off, just shoot accurately.Enough said.

Mike

Sorry, but I have to put my .02 in. In my .375 H&H, a Barnes 235 gr Triple Shock moves in the vicinity of 3000 FPS and if you can recover it, meaning it doesn't pass through and keep on leaving the scene of the accident, it will retain most if not all of its original weight. Have used it on Impala,DRT Gemsbok, DRT Zebra, went 30 yards Bushbuck, DRT Elk, DRT. The Zebra was at 320 yds, the Elk at 175 The Wildebeest took 3 shots because of having the first shot somewhat deflected and made a bad hit. The other 2 shots sent from stem to stern as he was charging, 1 exited. And if you want violent tissue damage, it will do that as well. It also opened up on the Impala at 90 yds and created complete havoc. The PH that hunted me told me that the bullet was WAY TOO LIGHT and had a fit about having to track game if I used it. He changed his mind after the hunt. A combination of speed and a bullet that holds together worked perfectly. Haven't ever tried the A Frames and never have shot a NP. IMHO it is a definite option. Accurate and hard hitting.

quote:

Originally posted by retreever:
Will, Two leopards and first was with a 300gr Hornady round nose cat was shot in chest and exit out his back hanging on a lion bait. Recovered bullet from tree next day. 35 yd shot

I would be happy to use the 300gr Hornady on leopard. But having used two on my lion I would not use the 300gr Hornady round nose on lion again.

My second shot was into the chest from 25 yards and the bullet came to pieces.

I would be happy with the 300 gr NP for lion.

My suggestion is to avoid ANY bullet that has a reputation of breaking up and not penetrating, especially for dangerous game.

You never know what angle you might get for your shot, so give yourself as much advantage as you can.

I have shot several leopards and lions with 375 caliber 300 grain bullets, either Barnes X or our Walterhogs.

Both these bullets expand violently at the beginning, pieces go off in different directions to cause damage, while the shank remains intact to penetrate deep.

The last lion I shot on our last safari had a small bullet fragment peering out of the skin a short distance from the large excit hole t5hat main part of the bullet made. I will see if I can find that photo and post it here.

quote:

You never know what angle you might get for your shot, so give yourself as much advantage as you can.

Probably the quote of the day. I am not a bullet fundi but the chest shot on a Lion is a good one to take however the bullet has to be able to drive through heavy dense muscle here.

Broadside the bullet must be placed behind the shoulder and below the mid line. This is a dead Lion walking. There has been reference to shoulder shots and for the life of me I cannot understand a PH making this call as there is no vitals here.

Enclosed is a picture of a gut shot Lion. Calibre was .416 and my client thought he knew better than I and tried to drive a bullet through the beast from this angle. The photo was taken 18 stressful hours later.



I have also heard that those so called Lion loads are shit bullets.

Thanks Andrew. All this crap about shooting Lions on the shoulder is exactly that, DUNG. Which is why I always advise cat hunters to study the anatomy; cats are built differently! And if they are standing on a bait the physiology changes even more.

I'm curious to know what bullet your client used in his .416 and if it was a handload or commercial?

Thanks Mike. I cannot remember the bullet but it would have been commercial. Note it broke up into five pieces which you can see in the back leg. The bullet hit a small branch in front of the Lion who was at very close quarters (see angle of the shot) lying down quartering away.

What I do remember is that my bad language resulted in a very poor tip. This Lion was tracked up on foot and my instructions NOT to shoot were very clear. I was waiting for the Lion to stand up before I called the shot, if any.

I used Woodleigh round nose softs (9.3x62 and 425WR) on both of my Lion with good results and would happily use them again should the opportunity arise.
Shot this old guy as he was quartering away and was quite impresed with the damage to heart and lungs by the Woodleigh at 2300fps.

We wanna see the nose...we wanna see the nose

Below you will see what I call the BBW#13 NonCon Carnivore. It's designed specifically for this purpose, lion/leopard. An off shoot of the BBW#13 NonCon, the Carnivore has a deeper cavity, blades shear at or around 2 inches after entering the body cavity, similar to a bomb going off, shrapnel, blades driving through vital organs, ripping and tearing. Massive trauma inflicted, which is what one wants on a cat. Penetration is not sacrificed, and in fact increases from the main bullet which continues on a straight line until exiting. On a broadside shot on lion this bullet will exit, along with the probability of even a few of the blades exiting as well.

I concur, the thought of Art Alphins old Lion Load is completely scary, as with a conventional bullet that does this, penetration is sacrificed as the bullet breaks up. The concept is good, but the actual sacrifice of penetration is horrible, and deadly. Lion load bullet should be avoided at all costs. While one wants to transmit tremendous trauma to a lion, one does not want to sacrifice penetration at all, as some have said you never know what sort of angle may be presented, penetration is not something to sacrifice at all, for any dangerous game.

I was only able to shoot one animal with a Carnivore in June from my 500 MDM, a waterbuck at 106 yards with a 425 gr BBW#13 Carnivore. This bullet entered slightly behind the left shoulder, blades shear at 2 inches moving away from center, the main bullet exited in front of the right shoulder, along with one of the blades ripping an enormous holes about 4 inches apart. Internal damage was horrendous, one lung had a chunk completely separated about the size of my fist, blood vessels were severed over the top of the heart, blood gushed out in a heavy stream from the exits. Bullet must have also hit the right shoulder as it was broken as well, vitals were a mess, mostly mush. Animal tried to get up, but was not able to.

While I tell you about the Carnivore, which is devastating, I have elected to discontinue it for this sort of work in favor of the more versatile ESP Raptor we are working with for my field use in the big bores. The Raptor will inflict as much trauma as the Carnivore, but will most likely give deeper penetration more along the lines of a standard BBW#13 NonCon, as that is what it is on one end anyway. Raptors are lighter in caliber, more velocity, more trauma inflicted, along with deeper penetration as well. Raptors will turn a lion inside out. Blades are smaller than the Carnivore, but work exactly the same way.

I would personally not even consider a conventional bullet again. Oh, and for some of you who don't know, or might have some assumptions, I ain't in the bullet business, I am just a shooter/hunter like you, that wants the best bullet I can have to make me more successful in the field. It's that simple.





Michael

quote:

Originally posted by retreever:
Will, Two leopards and first was with a 300gr Hornady round nose cat was shot in chest and exit out his back hanging on a lion bait. Recovered bullet from tree next day. 35 yd shot


Came in daylight

the 300gr hornady interlock expands a lot i have shot many animal and when you gut it the lungs comes out in pieces.

we shot a buff in the lungs went 5meters

i have not shot cats with it but know of guys that use it on cats with great success.

in my experience do not load them more than 2400feet/sec

Will:

I have never shot the Lion Load's. However, I have killed several with Nosler Partitions and Swift A-Frames. I would take the A Frame all day long over the Nosler.

I would opt for the 416.

In my experience, if you shoot a lion through the chest area broadside with a 300 grain North Fork soft point, you will get a very large hole and a very dead lion. Also, if you shoot a buffalo with the same bullet and hit the spine/shoulder junction, you will get a bang-flop.
Why use anything else?

I have touted the Swift A-Frame in this thread, and while I did kill a very large Zambia Lion with a single A-Frame in 2004 (and a helluva lot of other African game over the years) that was before the development of the CEB BBW bullets that michael458 has been instrumental in helping to develop and test.

I used the BBW#13 on Elephant in Africa 6 weeks ago and the result was nothing less than predicted. I am anxiously awaiting the completed testing of the BBW in .223Rem.

At this time I personally would select the BBW Raptor were I considering another Lion. But if I couldn't get them, I would have no hesitation in using the A-Frame again. And from a .416Rem.

I shot a huge lion in 2005 with the 375 H&H and a 300 grain TBBC. DRT.

I have only shot 3 lions, all of them in 2000, all of them with a Winchester M70, 458 Winchester with 400 gr Swift A Frames. All dead, right there, on the spot. So for sure, nothing wrong with that.

There are many good choices to use today. I had an opportunity for lion this past June, but no males showed up. I had a Win M70 458 B&M loaded with a 420 BBW#13 NonCon, after using that same bullet on buffalo and croc, there was no doubt in my mind what sort of damage this bullet would do to the vitals of lion. If hunting lion now, or in the future, there is zero doubt what will be in the chamber of my rifles, it will be one of these BBW#13 NonCons, or one of the new Raptors coming.

For sure 416 caliber and up.

Michael

Will,

Give me a call. I have some thoughts that us fellow factory load dudes can follow.

Jeff

Lions are soft-skinned animals - muscular as they might be, its still tissue and a well placed shot with most any expanding bullet will kill it without too much fanfare.

2 Lions, 350gr TSX from a 416 Rigby, and a 300 TSX from a 375 H&H.

2 Leopards, 300gr TSX from a 375 H&H and a 180 TTSX from a 300 H&H.

All one shot kills!

Will: I stand alongside Mike in support of the Swift-A-Frame. I've never had a bullet sponsor throughout any of my dealings (and don't want one either) and have been fortunate to shoot eight cats. You're seasoned enough to know first you've got to find a bullet that shoots straight, and then hope it does the job. I've shot eight cats with essentially eight bullets, seven of them have been Swift-A-Frames. Thee most punishing shot was with a .416 at 91 yards.

I've used .375, .338 and .300's, but the alltime smackdown was done with a .416.