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Gentlemen, I have never been to Africa, but dream of going someday. Until that day comes, I have to content myself with reading about it. That said, I've read a Capstick book, several articles, and lots of stuff online and I notice one thing that seems recurrent: lots of professional hunters carry 458 Win Mags. Sure, lots of them carry big 470's, 500's, etc, but I keep running across 458 toating PH's mentioned over and over again. When I see something in more than one place, I am often lead to believe there's something to it. So, is it true that many PH's carry 458 Win Mags as their working/stopping rifle and if so why? From everything else I've read, the 458 Win seems to be a marginal performer and I'm kinda curious why a professional would stake his livelihood on something of that nature. Again, I've never been to Africa and really don't know much about it. But my curiosity has finally gotten the better of me and I have to ask. What do you gentlemen think? Thanks, Tex Jason "Chance favors the prepared mind." | ||
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Read the article in the latest Rifle Mag on the comparison between the 458 WM and 458 Lott. The 458WM is not the best but it is good enough. If I was going to buy a 45 cal. bolt rifle, although I can't imagine why, it would be a positive feed 458 WM, not a Lott. Lighter, handier, less recoil and with the newer powders equals or surpasses the 450 and 470 Doubles for energy with the same or similiar bullets. | |||
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Most PHs select the .458 Win because it is the cheapest and most readily available big-bore rifle and ammunition. Simple economics, most PHs can't afford a double. I would be more concerned about how a PH shoots in a pressure situation, than the rifle he is carrying. Unfortunately, I know of no way to determine this in advance. Regards, Terry Msasi haogopi mwiba [A hunter is not afraid of thorns] | |||
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I am stuck because Mickey tells me not to hunt with a cartridge younger than me. So I must use the 30-06 and 375H&H. I do, dispite his advice, own a Lott. It dose an honest 2300fps with 500gr and will shoot 458 Win.Mag. Cost is the same and you won't fill the case up. The Win.Mag will kill anything. I just like a choice so i have the lott. In the Ruger RSM it is not that bad. It do kick but at 5'9" 165lbs and almost 60 yrs old it is not painful to me. botton line is your$$$$- your gun, get what you are happy with. Try to shoot both first and get what you want. gene Semper Fi WE BAND OF BUBBAS STC Hunting Club | |||
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I know a Zim PH who shoots a 458wm. I was at a lunch with him and we were chatting. I asked him if he'd considered the Lott. He said yes but that he stuck with the 458 because he'd never found it wanting. (He also mentioned that some of the PH's he knew who had converted their rifles had on going feed issues. Must be a shortage of good smiths?) He had some photos with him and leafed through til he got to a couple and showed me a series of photos of a charging buff he'd killed. 458 solid just above the nose and through the brain. No problem. He used the Speer tungsten cored solid. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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Many PH's hardly ever shoot their rifles at game, and many that I know are shooting the 416's, and are still alive. The 458 is good enough and the Lott is better. Anything you read in the gun rags are suspect, as they never saw a rifle or cartridge they didn't like! ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Here is a list of the rifles and calibers carried by the PHs I have run into over the years in Africa. 404 Jefffery, Cogswell & Harrison 450/400 3 1/4, Westley Richards 458 Lott, CZ 550 458 Lott CZ 550 450 WATTS, CZ 550 375 H&H, CZ 550 470 Nitro, Merkel 460 Wea., Weatherby 458 Lott, ???? 465H&H | |||
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And here are some of the rifles I've seen PH's carrying over the years. .458 Lott Ruger RSM .458Lott Brno .450-400 Brit double .375H&H German Mauser .458 Win Mauser .458 Win PF M-70 .470NE Belgium built Double .416 Rigby Ruger RSM .500 Jeff vektor action | |||
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I think you will find a lot of 458 Win Mag rifles in the hands of PHs, and most I've seen have been Mauser, BRNO 602, or Win PF Mod 70s. A far greater amount of the rifles you'll see will be 375 H&H BRNO 602s. Many of the PHs, lately, have been either tradeing their 458 rifles for 416 Rem Mag rifles of many brands, and others are converting their 458 WMs to 458 LOTT. The reason you see certain rifles in the hands of PHs has more to do with what was available when they bought the rifle they use, than what is best today. When you are restricted as to how many rifles you can own, and the availability of ammo is a consideration, you make do with what you have, and you use it till it wears out. Today the 458 Win Mag is a viable cartridge, as long as you load it properly, to avoid the draw backs that gave it a bad rapp in the first place. These problems are easy to make happen if you get sloppy. The only reason for the Lott is, the case capacity is just enough better to make it VERY reliable, and somewhat forgiving. I believe a lot of folks mkake a mistake by trying to get all the Lott can muster, when all they need is the origenal "ADVERTIZED" balistics of the 458 WM, with less pressure, and without powder compaction. More power is not needed over the 458 WM, but better reliability is what you should look for. If you duplicate the old 450NE 3 1/4" with a 500 gr bullet, nothing is lost that pushing the LOTT case to it's limits gains other than heavy recoil. The buffalo will not know the difference. A 500 gr .458 bullet of proper shape, and construction at 2150 fps is enough medicine for anything that walks, crawl, or flies, and upping that to 2350 fps will not kill them any deader, or quicker! The 458 LOTT is what the 458 Win Mag should have been in the first place! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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In the early 90's many of the PH's I met there before living there used 375HH rifles, however lots of them had a 458 but did not pack it along much. Then there was a trend of RSA PH's to work with a partnership in Zim for DG hunts. Dueing that early period most switched to the 458, and then about the late 90's it seems most of them have had the 458's sold off or modified to 458 Lott. I Had John Ricks build mine on a Model 70 action in 458Lott and I don't think I could want for a better rifle then this one. I'll also mention that most resident PH's strongly desire a model 70 action for their Lott. It has either a reputation or true functional advantage that I'm asked every year to find and bring back model 70 actions for them. I think the attraction is that it's a CRF and is far lighter to build the Lott on then the mauser action. We all pack them around much more then we shoot them! | |||
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MacD37 made me think of something I've pondered for a long time... If I had a .458 Lott (I don't, both my .458's are Win's) I think I'd not try to push it to it's MAX velocities, but as Mac said, take advantage of the ease with which you can reach the Classic standards of a 500 at an honest-to-God 2150fps and not punish yourself with the additional recoil to try and eek out an extra 150fps. My thought is why not take advantage of that extra case capacity and do something that I really think would make a significant improvement in performance that you CANNOT get from a .458 Win... Go to the 550gr Woodleighs and run them at about 2150-2200fps. I think this is where you'd see a more significant increase in performance and penetration (esp with the solids) than you do running a 500gr at 2300fps. Am I mistaken here or any other thoughts on this? I've heard virtually no such discussion on the 550's and Woodleigh has a sterling reputation, so it's an excellent bullet to do this with. Bullet WEIGHT is a crucial factor when it comes to penetration. .22 LR Ruger M77/22 30-06 Ruger M77/MkII .375 H&H Ruger RSM | |||
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458RugerNo1, I believe Woods in his book discusses the 550gr Woodleigh out of his Lott at 2100 or 2150. He really liked it and much prefered it to the 500gr Woodleigh at higher velocities. IIRC he was most fond of the heavier soft. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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If the Lott is used as protection against animals then you must consider the animals your up against. I would not perefer solids on lions or bears, or leopards. But the Buffalo, rhino, hippo, elephant is prudent choice. It's very hard to beat the 450 grain X bullet for perfect all around use. If you're lucky enough to have a barrel that shoots them it's the best solition I have seen to use in the Lott. It may be just a bit too long OAL for the Win mag, but the X bullets slight expansion and fantastic penetration is a combination I have not managed to beat in this Lott of mine. I have shot Swift Aframe bullets into a couple Elephant and they penetrated well and expanded to a huge diameter. But they are not as good over all in my opinion as the X bullet. Many will say that the 450 grain weight is too light, but when launched at 2300plus it's penetration is amazing, even when compared to the 500 grain solids. It's hard for me to say it's always better because every situation is different. Different species and odd angles shot placement and distance is all piled together it's hard to make a blanket statement about any one bullet being always better then another. Not to mention that my shots at really big game are more limited then my plains game experience. I have a lot of clients that have shot more then I have were Hippo, elephant, and Rhino are concerned. However I have seen lots of clients shoot with their own rifles to have a somewhat experienced opinion on the results. | |||
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Thanks for the input JJ, I've always enjoyed your input as a Pro and that of the others here. True, you often don't do the actual shooting on such game, but you're "right there" with the client and are able to see - perhaps better than the shooter at that particular moment - the effects of rifles, ammo, shot placement, etc. Of course the dissection of the game later also tells you volumes, so your experiences and observations are of great interest. .22 LR Ruger M77/22 30-06 Ruger M77/MkII .375 H&H Ruger RSM | |||
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I used to work for/with a pretty well known PH in Zambia in the early 80's. He had a 470 that he always carried in the case behind the seat. Normally he carried a 375 Mauser but when going after nasty things or into the Leopard blind he always packed the 470. He hadn't fired it in 4 years on Safari. Just luck? I don't know, maybe he just knew how to pick his clients. | |||
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I don't find this surprising at all. A guy who knows his rifle intimately through years of use and carrying will invariably be a better shot. He knows it instinctively and that rifle is a PART of him through total familiarization and years of companionship. A cool head and wealth of experience is of major importance in such stressful encounters. Yes shooting is a perishable skill that needs to be kept freshly honed, but one thing that can't be bought is a cool head. When under tremendous stress with just a second or two to react and perform this is what is most impressive. A worn, battered old .458 in the hands of such a fellow who is a cool operator is what you want I dare say. The life of these PH's is a very rugged one in many ways and a rifle that's spent much time in the bush will show it plainly. Pretty rifles take a dreadful beating and don't stay pretty for long I'd wager. A truly skilled shot will shoot by instinct that comes with much repetition from shouldering that rifle thousands of times. It should fit him like a good bird gun, where no adjustments or fidgeting are necessary - no conscious thought is required to get that safety off, shoulder the rifle and get that bead on target and fire... When the time comes to perform it's all done by instinct with little or no conscious thought. A man with a well-worn rifle who knows it well will perform with deadly efficiency. .22 LR Ruger M77/22 30-06 Ruger M77/MkII .375 H&H Ruger RSM | |||
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I've never really thought about it much but I'd agree. I only ever carry my .500. (hell, I even take it dinner with me) It's beaten up and scratched to hell but it shoots well for me and has never let me down..... This year I've stopped close range charges on 3 wounded animals: Lion (15 yards & a funny story) Leopard (6 yards) and Buffalo (7 yards)...... but in all 3 cases I was unable to recall what happened in the couple of seconds before the shot. I obviously recall every moment of the follow up and I remember after the shot but the moments between identifing the charge and the shot itself are a complete blank......weird huh? does anyone else out there experience the same thing? .....I'll add to my comments by saying there's good and bad PH's the same way there are good and bad hunting clients - some shoot well and some shoot not so well..... | |||
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Natasha Illum Berg bærer en kaliber 458 patron rundt halsen. Den skar hun ut av hjertet på sin første bøffel. http://www.dagbladet.no/magasinet/2004/09/18/408602.html -Bob F. | |||
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Everywhere but on this thread it is believed that the .375 is still the number one choice of PHs..I believe that to be a fact with the .458 running second and the 416 Rem. at 3rd place...A number of PHs have had their .458 chambered out to the Lott I have heard.... A very few PH can afford a double rifle and those that have them were either gifted them or picked them up years ago when they were cheap and a dime a dozen, yes, even the Holland and Holland Royals. Old timer Ron Van Heerden has or had a closet full to them he bought for under $500 apiece...all fine high grade doubles. He told me you couldn't find ammo or even components back then... I have turned many find doubles down and even bought a few for under $2000 not that long ago...In 1960 I bought a clean but very used .470 WR for $2000 at a gun show, A near mint Army Navy 450-400-3" for $1300. As late as 1980 I have seen high grade doubles for $2500. I passed on a .470 H&H at Boise for $2500, its was a clean but well used gun, I sure wish I had bought it... Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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BFaucett, Natasha has carried a 465 H&H double for years and that is the gun she PHed with as long as I have known her and thats a long time.. I don't know the history on the gun you picture her with..She did have some bolt guns in her gun cabinet, but seldom used them according to her.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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I wish I could read the article seems interesting. Can you offer a translation? Or atleast a summary. | |||
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I've never read anyone bad mouth the 470 Nitro but the .458 Win Mag which duplicates the performance in bullet weight and velocity seems to constantly get a bad rap. Go figure!!! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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The following is simply my opinion. I am not looking to start a “which bullet is better than any other bullet†war. I admit to bias freely and I think you all know why. IMO the 458 win is a great cartridge if you use it wisely. I have extensive use in media and some American animals. No African DG so my conclusions are really not even to that level (conclusion). I simply have so many tests into media of many types and I feel I have enough information to say that if I were going after DG this is what I would do with a 458 win and a Lott. In the win I would use a good solid, you all know which one I would choose, the weight would be 450 gr and I would run it at 2100-2150 tops. There is nothing to be gained my pushing up the pressure for a few more fps. You are only opening the door for Murphy to wreak havoc. In the Lott I would again run velocities at 2150 and maybe to 2200 if the pressure was low and I mean by a good margin. I would however use a 550 or better yet a 600 gr solid. Again, you can guess which one. IMO the new materials and bullet designs and manufacturing techniques have enabled us to lower the magic SD number of .300 to something a bit lower. What it is I can’t say with certainty but today’s bullets and I don’t only mean my bullets there are plenty of very good bullets to choose from and what it used to take a bullet with a SD of .300 to do it can now be done with a bullet of, say .270, (that is a guess but hopefully somewhat educated). The same is true of the old magic velocity number of 2400. There still, I believe, something to it and with today’s stoutly built bullets even higher velocities work very well but somewhat lower velocities will work well too. I see no issue in having a PH with a 458 win. If he can shoot and is calm under pressure (most important), loads his gun wisely it is a fine choice. Chances are I will be heavier armed but he will out do me in experience and that is far more important and the reason we all spend the bucks to have a PH. They know how to do the job all the time not only when things go perfectly but when it all goes to shit as well. Shoot a 458 in good health. When it was introduced it should have been a Lott with the powder and bullets of the day. In 2005 that is not the case. It can be a perfectly sound and wise choice for your trip to Africa for any animal that is on your dance card. The above is MHO and I mean to offend no one. I only offer my experience (limited) and logic (hopefully not flawed) John | |||
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Ray, I know that you know much more about it (and her) than I do. I just posted the photo that was shown in the article located at the link I gave. I have no information about the rifle, or why is she shown with it, beyond that. ElCaballero, Sorry, I can't help with a translation. I believe the article is in Norwegian (Swedish?). Maybe one of our Scandavian forum members can help out. I'd like to know what the article says too. -Bob F. | |||
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John, Absolutly correct..A 45 cal. 500 gr. bullet at 2000 FPS is deadly on any animal with the proper bullet construction... A 470 at the same is ultra deadly...I do believe that killing power in the ultra big bores is based on penitration and bullet cross section... Velocity is a killer, but its place is in the smaller medium bores and under IMO.... The above only applies with certain types of monolithic bullets.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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The biggest drawback to the .458 Win seems to me to be when using long-for-weight bullets like the TSX or many of the monolithic solids. I’d agree with fritz454 here that I’d be inclined to use 450 gr bullets (sectional density above .300) in the Win. The biggest advantage to the Lott is that you don’t have to worry about trading powder capacity for bullet length, and you can comfortably add a little bit of speed if that is your wish. However, I wouldn’t worry about using a .458 Win for anything that walks on the planet, when properly loaded. The same type of situation crops up for those of us using the .376 Styer, as compared to the .375 H&H. You can either load a 270 gr monolithic bullet at 2350 or a 300 gr conventional bullet at 2300. You cannot load a 300 gr monolithic solid to much over 2200. For my needs, I’m loading a 270 gr TSX for plains game and keeping the magazine full of 300 gr Hornady FMJ’s for “just in case.†My choice for my primary DG rifle is a custom M-70 in .458 Lott, shooting TSX and Solids at a relatively mild speed of 2250 fps. Accuracy is outstanding, standard deviation is in the 15 fps range, and the knock-down power is all that I could ever need. There are certainly better choices out there, and I congratulate anybody that is shooting a combination that has an edge over my equipment, but what I have is going to be very adequate for all of my needs. "If you can get closer, get closer. If you can get steadier, get steadier." | |||
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The article is in Norwegian. Natasha (born in 1971) became a PH apprentice at the age of 24, in other words 10 years ago. I presume she was an apprentice for at least a couple of years but it doesn't say) Here is a quick translation:
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Sorry Tex. Thank you Erik for the translation. What a tragedy of a story. I would sure like to get my hands on that book. Of course I will have to have Erick read it to me. Sounds like a hell of a woman! | |||
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Tex, Yes, me too, sorry for the thread hijack. Erik, Thank you very much for taking the time and effort to translate the article!! I enjoyed reading it very much. Sincerely, -Bob F. | |||
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I met her a couple of years ago and it is a .458 (mono) bullet she wears around her neck.... but she told me it was from her first charging Buffalo and not her first Buffalo......which kinda brings us back on topic.......... | |||
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No problem with the diversion guys. I've got the answers I wanted and I've really enjoyed the discussion. Thanks all! Tex Jason "Chance favors the prepared mind." | |||
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BF, I was just adding some knowledge as to what pHs carrey for what it was worth, added that tidbit of info on Natasha... She is a fine lady..I believe she was presented the 465 double as a gift early on... She is a good friend of Pierres and Hammish Manning, that is how I met her.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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If anyone is looking for bolt action a .458 these days, is there any reason not to go for the Lott? Or is the Lott still a handloaders round? | |||
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458RugerNo1 I have used the 500gr Woodleigh in a 458 Lott to take 5 eles and one buff. The amount of peneration I experienced was impressive. Velocity was 2,140 fps. In one case I placed an insurance shot between the shoulders of a large downed cow. The 550 gr solid went though the spine and was found under the skin on the brisket. I didn't measure the depth of penetration but it had to be around 5 feet. I think if you want deep penetration out of the Lott give the 550 gr woodleigh a try. You won't be disapointed. 465H&H | |||
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Pete, The Lott is comercially built by Ruger, Winchester and CZ. The ammo is factory loaded by Hornandy and possibly others? (I am a hand loader so I really don't know about factory ammo in this round.) I think that it is gaining popularity by the day. When I built my first heavy rifle it was a Lott and I have never looked back. Seeing that the Lott will shoot both rounds capably I think it is the no brainer choice. Kind of like a .44 mag vs a .44 special. Just get the bigger one and then you have the option of shooting both rounds. | |||
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surestrike, I tend to agree with you, but i am wondering if there is something i am missing? Is there any down side to using a .458win mag ammo in the Lott for instance? Is Lott ammo difficult to get hold of in Africa? Much more expensive over there maybe? I also wonder just how many PH's load their own? Regards, Pete | |||
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Pete There is a problem when you use any smaller cartridge in a rifle with the pressures you are dealling with. The Win. case is shorter, thus tapered more. The end of the shell will have space around it to expand upon firing. The bullet will be seated into the chamber where the shell would normally sit in the Lott/.375 Weatherby/any other similiar case. Will it work, sure. Will hurt the rifle? Maybe. The more you do it the more problems you create. Better to just load the Lott down. | |||
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What was this thread about again? I kind of lost my concentration after all those pictures of Natasha were posted. "Science only goes so far then God takes over." | |||
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Pete, Good questions all. I have seen a tremendous intrest in the Lott from all of the PHs I talk to in Africa. The lott craze seems to be in full swing on in Africa as well. But I can't answer your questions because I just don't know what the availability and expense is for this round "over there". | |||
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