PH Rifle Choice?

01 October 2005, 09:42

Tex21

PH Rifle Choice?

Gentlemen,

I have never been to Africa, but dream of going someday. Until that day comes, I have to content myself with reading about it.

That said, I've read a Capstick book, several articles, and lots of stuff online and I notice one thing that seems recurrent: lots of professional hunters carry 458 Win Mags. Sure, lots of them carry big 470's, 500's, etc, but I keep running across 458 toating PH's mentioned over and over again. When I see something in more than one place, I am often lead to believe there's something to it. So, is it true that many PH's carry 458 Win Mags as their working/stopping rifle and if so why? From everything else I've read, the 458 Win seems to be a marginal performer and I'm kinda curious why a professional would stake his livelihood on something of that nature.

Again, I've never been to Africa and really don't know much about it. But my curiosity has finally gotten the better of me and I have to ask.

What do you gentlemen think?

Thanks,

Tex

01 October 2005, 10:02

Mickey1

Read the article in the latest Rifle Mag on the comparison between the 458 WM and 458 Lott. The 458WM is not the best but it is good enough.

If I was going to buy a 45 cal. bolt rifle, although I can't imagine why, it would be a positive feed 458 WM, not a Lott.

Lighter, handier, less recoil and with the newer powders equals or surpasses the 450 and 470 Doubles for energy with the same or similiar bullets.

01 October 2005, 10:24

T.Carr

Most PHs select the .458 Win because it is the cheapest and most readily available big-bore rifle and ammunition. Simple economics, most PHs can't afford a double.

I would be more concerned about how a PH shoots in a pressure situation, than the rifle he is carrying. Unfortunately, I know of no way to determine this in advance.

Regards,

Terry

01 October 2005, 10:28

invader66

I am stuck because Mickey tells me not to hunt
with a cartridge younger than me.

So I must use the 30-06 and 375H&H. I do, dispite his advice, own a Lott. It dose an honest 2300fps with 500gr and will shoot 458 Win.Mag. Cost is the same and you won't fill the case up. The Win.Mag will kill anything. I just like a choice so i have the lott. In the Ruger RSM it is not that bad. It do kick but at 5'9" 165lbs
and almost 60 yrs old it is not painful to me.
botton line is your$$$$- your gun, get what you are happy with. Try to shoot both first and get what you want.
gene

01 October 2005, 18:07

JPK

I know a Zim PH who shoots a 458wm. I was at a lunch with him and we were chatting. I asked him if he'd considered the Lott. He said yes but that he stuck with the 458 because he'd never found it wanting. (He also mentioned that some of the PH's he knew who had converted their rifles had on going feed issues. Must be a shortage of good smiths?)

He had some photos with him and leafed through til he got to a couple and showed me a series of photos of a charging buff he'd killed. 458 solid just above the nose and through the brain. No problem. He used the Speer tungsten cored solid.

JPK

01 October 2005, 18:13

Will

Many PH's hardly ever shoot their rifles at game, and many that I know are shooting the 416's, and are still alive. The 458 is good enough and the Lott is better.

Anything you read in the gun rags are suspect, as they never saw a rifle or cartridge they didn't like!

01 October 2005, 19:15

465H&H

Here is a list of the rifles and calibers carried by the PHs I have run into over the years in Africa.

404 Jefffery, Cogswell & Harrison
450/400 3 1/4, Westley Richards
458 Lott, CZ 550
458 Lott CZ 550
450 WATTS, CZ 550
375 H&H, CZ 550
470 Nitro, Merkel
460 Wea., Weatherby
458 Lott, ????

465H&H

01 October 2005, 19:39

surestrike

And here are some of the rifles I've seen PH's carrying over the years.

.458 Lott Ruger RSM
.458Lott Brno
.450-400 Brit double
.375H&H German Mauser
.458 Win Mauser
.458 Win PF M-70
.470NE Belgium built Double
.416 Rigby Ruger RSM
.500 Jeff vektor action

01 October 2005, 20:30

MacD37

I think you will find a lot of 458 Win Mag rifles in the hands of PHs, and most I've seen have been Mauser, BRNO 602, or Win PF Mod 70s. A far greater amount of the rifles you'll see will be 375 H&H BRNO 602s. Many of the PHs, lately, have been either tradeing their 458 rifles for 416 Rem Mag rifles of many brands, and others are converting their 458 WMs to 458 LOTT. The reason you see certain rifles in the hands of PHs has more to do with what was available when they bought the rifle they use, than what is best today. When you are restricted as to how many rifles you can own, and the availability of ammo is a consideration, you make do with what you have, and you use it till it wears out.
Today the 458 Win Mag is a viable cartridge, as long as you load it properly, to avoid the draw backs that gave it a bad rapp in the first place. These problems are easy to make happen if you get sloppy. The only reason for the Lott is, the case capacity is just enough better to make it VERY reliable, and somewhat forgiving. I believe a lot of folks mkake a mistake by trying to get all the Lott can muster, when all they need is the origenal "ADVERTIZED" balistics of the 458 WM, with less pressure, and without powder compaction. More power is not needed over the 458 WM, but better reliability is what you should look for. If you duplicate the old 450NE 3 1/4" with a 500 gr bullet, nothing is lost that pushing the LOTT case to it's limits gains other than heavy recoil. The buffalo will not know the difference. A 500 gr .458 bullet of proper shape, and construction at 2150 fps is enough medicine for anything that walks, crawl, or flies, and upping that to 2350 fps will not kill them any deader, or quicker! The 458 LOTT is what the 458 Win Mag should have been in the first place!

01 October 2005, 20:38

JJHACK

In the early 90's many of the PH's I met there before living there used 375HH rifles, however lots of them had a 458 but did not pack it along much. Then there was a trend of RSA PH's to work with a partnership in Zim for DG hunts. Dueing that early period most switched to the 458, and then about the late 90's it seems most of them have had the 458's sold off or modified to 458 Lott. I Had John Ricks build mine on a Model 70 action in 458Lott and I don't think I could want for a better rifle then this one.

I'll also mention that most resident PH's strongly desire a model 70 action for their Lott. It has either a reputation or true functional advantage that I'm asked every year to find and bring back model 70 actions for them. I think the attraction is that it's a CRF and is far lighter to build the Lott on then the mauser action. We all pack them around much more then we shoot them!

01 October 2005, 21:03

458RugerNo1

MacD37 made me think of something I've pondered for a long time...

If I had a .458 Lott (I don't, both my .458's are Win's) I think I'd not try to push it to it's MAX velocities, but as Mac said, take advantage of the ease with which you can reach the Classic standards of a 500 at an honest-to-God 2150fps and not punish yourself with the additional recoil to try and eek out an extra 150fps.

My thought is why not take advantage of that extra case capacity and do something that I really think would make a significant improvement in performance that you CANNOT get from a .458 Win... Go to the 550gr Woodleighs and run them at about 2150-2200fps. I think this is where you'd see a more significant increase in performance and penetration (esp with the solids) than you do running a 500gr at 2300fps.

Am I mistaken here or any other thoughts on this? I've heard virtually no such discussion on the 550's and Woodleigh has a sterling reputation, so it's an excellent bullet to do this with. Bullet WEIGHT is a crucial factor when it comes to penetration.

01 October 2005, 21:22

JPK

458RugerNo1,

I believe Woods in his book discusses the 550gr Woodleigh out of his Lott at 2100 or 2150. He really liked it and much prefered it to the 500gr Woodleigh at higher velocities. IIRC he was most fond of the heavier soft.

JPK

01 October 2005, 22:05

JJHACK

If the Lott is used as protection against animals then you must consider the animals your up against. I would not perefer solids on lions or bears, or leopards. But the Buffalo, rhino, hippo, elephant is prudent choice.

It's very hard to beat the 450 grain X bullet for perfect all around use. If you're lucky enough to have a barrel that shoots them it's the best solition I have seen to use in the Lott. It may be just a bit too long OAL for the Win mag, but the X bullets slight expansion and fantastic penetration is a combination I have not managed to beat in this Lott of mine.

I have shot Swift Aframe bullets into a couple Elephant and they penetrated well and expanded to a huge diameter. But they are not as good over all in my opinion as the X bullet.

Many will say that the 450 grain weight is too light, but when launched at 2300plus it's penetration is amazing, even when compared to the 500 grain solids. It's hard for me to say it's always better because every situation is different.

Different species and odd angles shot placement and distance is all piled together it's hard to make a blanket statement about any one bullet being always better then another. Not to mention that my shots at really big game are more limited then my plains game experience. I have a lot of clients that have shot more then I have were Hippo, elephant, and Rhino are concerned. However I have seen lots of clients shoot with their own rifles to have a somewhat experienced opinion on the results.

01 October 2005, 22:29

458RugerNo1

Thanks for the input JJ, I've always enjoyed your input as a Pro and that of the others here. True, you often don't do the actual shooting on such game, but you're "right there" with the client and are able to see - perhaps better than the shooter at that particular moment - the effects of rifles, ammo, shot placement, etc. Of course the dissection of the game later also tells you volumes, so your experiences and observations are of great interest.

01 October 2005, 22:49

ALF

01 October 2005, 23:21

Mickey1

I used to work for/with a pretty well known PH in Zambia in the early 80's. He had a 470 that he always carried in the case behind the seat. Normally he carried a 375 Mauser but when going after nasty things or into the Leopard blind he always packed the 470.

He hadn't fired it in 4 years on Safari. Just luck? I don't know, maybe he just knew how to pick his clients.

01 October 2005, 23:28

458RugerNo1

quote:
Chances are that the 375 or 458 guy would be doing more actual shooting than the exotic double guy, so though only a observation and gut feeling based on personal experience of shooting and owning guns there I expose myself to the slaughter that is about to follow

I don't find this surprising at all. A guy who knows his rifle intimately through years of use and carrying will invariably be a better shot. He knows it instinctively and that rifle is a PART of him through total familiarization and years of companionship. A cool head and wealth of experience is of major importance in such stressful encounters. Yes shooting is a perishable skill that needs to be kept freshly honed, but one thing that can't be bought is a cool head. When under tremendous stress with just a second or two to react and perform this is what is most impressive. A worn, battered old .458 in the hands of such a fellow who is a cool operator is what you want I dare say. The life of these PH's is a very rugged one in many ways and a rifle that's spent much time in the bush will show it plainly. Pretty rifles take a dreadful beating and don't stay pretty for long I'd wager.

A truly skilled shot will shoot by instinct that comes with much repetition from shouldering that rifle thousands of times. It should fit him like a good bird gun, where no adjustments or fidgeting are necessary - no conscious thought is required to get that safety off, shoulder the rifle and get that bead on target and fire... When the time comes to perform it's all done by instinct with little or no conscious thought. A man with a well-worn rifle who knows it well will perform with deadly efficiency.

02 October 2005, 00:46

shakari

I've never really thought about it much but I'd agree.

I only ever carry my .500. (hell, I even take it dinner with me) It's beaten up and scratched to hell but it shoots well for me and has never let me down..... This year I've stopped close range charges on 3 wounded animals: Lion (15 yards & a funny story) Leopard (6 yards) and Buffalo (7 yards)...... but in all 3 cases I was unable to recall what happened in the couple of seconds before the shot. I obviously recall every moment of the follow up and I remember after the shot but the moments between identifing the charge and the shot itself are a complete blank......weird huh?

does anyone else out there experience the same thing?

.....I'll add to my comments by saying there's good and bad PH's the same way there are good and bad hunting clients - some shoot well and some shoot not so well.....

02 October 2005, 01:00

BFaucett

Natasha Illum Berg bÃ¦rer en kaliber 458 patron rundt halsen. Den skar hun ut av hjertet pÃ¥ sin fÃ¸rste bÃ¸ffel.

http://www.dagbladet.no/magasinet/2004/09/18/408602.html

-Bob F.

02 October 2005, 01:01

Atkinson

Everywhere but on this thread it is believed that the .375 is still the number one choice of PHs..I believe that to be a fact with the .458 running second and the 416 Rem. at 3rd place...A number of PHs have had their .458 chambered out to the Lott I have heard....

A very few PH can afford a double rifle and those that have them were either gifted them or picked them up years ago when they were cheap and a dime a dozen, yes, even the Holland and Holland Royals.

Old timer Ron Van Heerden has or had a closet full to them he bought for under $500 apiece...all fine high grade doubles. He told me you couldn't find ammo or even components back then...

I have turned many find doubles down and even bought a few for under $2000 not that long ago...In 1960 I bought a clean but very used .470 WR for $2000 at a gun show, A near mint Army Navy 450-400-3" for $1300. As late as 1980 I have seen high grade doubles for $2500. I passed on a .470 H&H at Boise for $2500, its was a clean but well used gun, I sure wish I had bought it...

02 October 2005, 01:08

Atkinson

BFaucett,
Natasha has carried a 465 H&H double for years and that is the gun she PHed with as long as I have known her and thats a long time..

I don't know the history on the gun you picture her with..She did have some bolt guns in her gun cabinet, but seldom used them according to her..

02 October 2005, 01:14

ElCaballero

quote:
Originally posted by BFaucett:

Natasha Illum Berg bÃ¦rer en kaliber 458 patron rundt halsen. Den skar hun ut av hjertet pÃ¥ sin fÃ¸rste bÃ¸ffel.

http://www.dagbladet.no/magasinet/2004/09/18/408602.html

-Bob F.

I wish I could read the article seems interesting. Can you offer a translation? Or atleast a summary.

02 October 2005, 01:18

vapodog

I've never read anyone bad mouth the 470 Nitro but the .458 Win Mag which duplicates the performance in bullet weight and velocity seems to constantly get a bad rap.

Go figure!!!

02 October 2005, 01:23

fritz454

The following is simply my opinion. I am not looking to start a â€œwhich bullet is better than any other bulletâ€ war. I admit to bias freely and I think you all know why.

IMO the 458 win is a great cartridge if you use it wisely. I have extensive use in media and some American animals. No African DG so my conclusions are really not even to that level (conclusion). I simply have so many tests into media of many types and I feel I have enough information to say that if I were going after DG this is what I would do with a 458 win and a Lott.

In the win I would use a good solid, you all know which one I would choose, the weight would be 450 gr and I would run it at 2100-2150 tops. There is nothing to be gained my pushing up the pressure for a few more fps. You are only opening the door for Murphy to wreak havoc.

In the Lott I would again run velocities at 2150 and maybe to 2200 if the pressure was low and I mean by a good margin. I would however use a 550 or better yet a 600 gr solid. Again, you can guess which one.

IMO the new materials and bullet designs and manufacturing techniques have enabled us to lower the magic SD number of .300 to something a bit lower. What it is I canâ€™t say with certainty but todayâ€™s bullets and I donâ€™t only mean my bullets there are plenty of very good bullets to choose from and what it used to take a bullet with a SD of .300 to do it can now be done with a bullet of, say .270, (that is a guess but hopefully somewhat educated).

The same is true of the old magic velocity number of 2400. There still, I believe, something to it and with todayâ€™s stoutly built bullets even higher velocities work very well but somewhat lower velocities will work well too.

I see no issue in having a PH with a 458 win. If he can shoot and is calm under pressure (most important), loads his gun wisely it is a fine choice. Chances are I will be heavier armed but he will out do me in experience and that is far more important and the reason we all spend the bucks to have a PH. They know how to do the job all the time not only when things go perfectly but when it all goes to shit as well.

Shoot a 458 in good health. When it was introduced it should have been a Lott with the powder and bullets of the day. In 2005 that is not the case. It can be a perfectly sound and wise choice for your trip to Africa for any animal that is on your dance card.

The above is MHO and I mean to offend no one. I only offer my experience (limited) and logic (hopefully not flawed)

John

02 October 2005, 01:29

BFaucett

Ray,

I know that you know much more about it (and her) than I do. I just posted the photo that was shown in the article located at the link I gave. I have no information about the rifle, or why is she shown with it, beyond that.

ElCaballero,

Sorry, I can't help with a translation. I believe the article is in Norwegian (Swedish?). Maybe one of our Scandavian forum members can help out. I'd like to know what the article says too.

-Bob F.

02 October 2005, 01:30

Atkinson

John,
Absolutly correct..A 45 cal. 500 gr. bullet at 2000 FPS is deadly on any animal with the proper bullet construction...

A 470 at the same is ultra deadly...I do believe that killing power in the ultra big bores is based on penitration and bullet cross section...

Velocity is a killer, but its place is in the smaller medium bores and under IMO....

The above only applies with certain types of monolithic bullets..

02 October 2005, 03:15

formerflyer

The biggest drawback to the .458 Win seems to me to be when using long-for-weight bullets like the TSX or many of the monolithic solids. Iâ€™d agree with fritz454 here that Iâ€™d be inclined to use 450 gr bullets (sectional density above .300) in the Win. The biggest advantage to the Lott is that you donâ€™t have to worry about trading powder capacity for bullet length, and you can comfortably add a little bit of speed if that is your wish. However, I wouldnâ€™t worry about using a .458 Win for anything that walks on the planet, when properly loaded.

The same type of situation crops up for those of us using the .376 Styer, as compared to the .375 H&H. You can either load a 270 gr monolithic bullet at 2350 or a 300 gr conventional bullet at 2300. You cannot load a 300 gr monolithic solid to much over 2200. For my needs, Iâ€™m loading a 270 gr TSX for plains game and keeping the magazine full of 300 gr Hornady FMJâ€™s for â€œjust in case.â€

My choice for my primary DG rifle is a custom M-70 in .458 Lott, shooting TSX and Solids at a relatively mild speed of 2250 fps. Accuracy is outstanding, standard deviation is in the 15 fps range, and the knock-down power is all that I could ever need. There are certainly better choices out there, and I congratulate anybody that is shooting a combination that has an edge over my equipment, but what I have is going to be very adequate for all of my needs.

02 October 2005, 03:16

ErikD

quote:
Originally posted by BFaucett:
Ray,

I know that you know much more about it (and her) than I do. I just posted the photo that was shown in the article located at the link I gave. I have no information about the rifle, or why is she shown with it, beyond that.

ElCaballero,

Sorry, I can't help with a translation. I believe the article is in Norwegian (Swedish?). Maybe one of our Scandavian forum members can help out. I'd like to know what the article says too.

-Bob F.

The article is in Norwegian. Natasha (born in 1971) became a PH apprentice at the age of 24, in other words 10 years ago. I presume she was an apprentice for at least a couple of years but it doesn't say)

Here is a quick translation:

quote:

Swedish Natasha Illum Berg (33) lives by shooting lions, leopards and buffalo. One day she was suspected of shooting her boyfriend too.

Tough: Natasha Ilum Berg carries a caliber 458 bullet around her neck that she cut out of the heart of her first buffalo.

Woman amongst Men: - "I have been scared over how women are treated here. You wouldn't believe it".

Scouting: The hunter rests her eyes on the wandering prey.

Primitive: Natasha lives in a simple cabin in Arusha, Tanzania. She has 3 workers, a computer and her trusty rifle.

Natasha sits on her staircase in front of her home in Nairobi, Kenya. She is screaming, while holding a man in her arms. It is her boyfriend who is shot thru the heart. He breaths weakly, then dies.

How did she end up here? In the middle of darkest africa, a blond 29 year old woman form the south of Sweden?

And why would they suspect her of the murder?

It's 3 years since that happend now, but Natasha is still breahtless when she talks into the phone about it. It's soon nightfall in africa. She tells of the british artist Tonio Trzebinski, the love of her life. They had just recently decided to come out in the open as a couple, when he was shot on the way to visit her. The murder is still not solved.

Natasha has nowwritten the book "Tea in the blue sofa", about the writer and Big game hunter "Anoushka"s relation to his lover. He is killed, near her home.

"It isn't much differant from my life, as anyone can see" Natasha says.

(Blablabla, a qoute from her book)

"I am leading a hunting team of 13 men tonight. We have just shot a big antilope out here and are very happy". Natashas voice reaches us over the cracking telephone line. She has travelled far into the bush, away ffrom her primitive cabin, which lies on a hill near Arusha. She lives there with her trusty rifle, 3 workers, a solar powered computer, and the letters of her dead boyfriend.

She tells of the big necklace around her neck in gold: a cartridge in calibur 458. (I presume the journalist meant "bullet"?)

"I cut it out of the heart from my first buffalo". "A buffalo doesnt slacken it's speed down to a trot from a gallop just because I'm a little blond form Sweden" she says.

She has lost many collegues to the wild animals. But that is not the worst. The thing with Tonio is.

"Can you talk about the day he died?"

"We could talk abot it for hours" she replies.

She remembers the blood. That she lay down beside him and screamed.

TT was married when he met N. His wife; Anna Cunningham-Reid, was in the Us at the time, escaping the threeway drama. It was Natasha, the tall, blond beauty that had come between them.

T was a well built man, an artist who lived the good life and painted popular abstract pictures. 2 weeks before the murder, Anna had found out about the affair. They agreed to get separated.

T must have known his murderer, according to "everyone".

The area is known for armed robbery, but nothing was missingÂ¨. Not his Alfa Romeo, Rolex or wallet with money. Rumors began to pop up. Was it a contract killing?

N refused to speak to the press. It was she that pressed the alarm buttoon in her house when the shots rang out. The press smelled blood.

"I was called the Icequeen by the English press and whites in Kenya. Others called me "The blond model". "It is incredable how hard people can be, they dug into all the details, how much time we spent together, if we had sex, what the last thing he said was".

N was not allowed to partake in T's funeral, who was one of Kenya most known personalities. She had a plane fly her over the ceremony, so she could say farewell.

The police stuck to that she was the murderer. They brought few others into interigations. "I went thru it all, for 1 1/2 months. I almost went crazy".

She was questioned for 6 hours every day for 50 days, and they took her computer away.

"I had a half finished book saved there, that they studied. They said "you'll get it back tommorrow" for a montha nd a half. I had no motive. It would look good if they got it to look like a white person did it". "I thought: "Go to hell". In the end I took a chance and marched into the police station and screamed: If that's what you think, then take me,a nd let me rot in prison in this damned country of yours. Your corrupt country. FOr something I dind't do". "I screamed Where I come from, a person is honost. And I want my computer back. Now!"
OK, Here is your computer they said. On the way out she said: "I can't be bothered with this anymore. Talk to someone more imposrtant than me. I'm leaving the country. Goodbye."

She didn't consider going back to Sweden.

"No, as long as the case was being investigated, I wanted to be near. It was my responsibility. I know I instinctivly belong in africa. I must have the adrenalin, nature, and all that I love".

She went to Tanzania.

"It appears that I'm best when under pressure". "Suddenly I could write, and the hunting clients started booking. I built my little cottage. And then when everything was set, I went to Sweden. That is when I broke down, at my mothers place. I almost lost my mind".

N stayed at home for a half a year.

Now she is back, and has begun to write the book she must write.

She is in the deep bush when she is talking to us on the phone:

When I was done with the manuscript, I gave it to my consultant in Denmark". " I said: I dont know what this is, but it comes from the bottom of my heart. I have to get it out before I can do anything else".

The consultant came back after 3 days and said we have to get this book published.

She talks softly into her cell phone. It is late, there are animals, big animals nearby.

"It is 3 years since T's murder, it is only the last 3-4 months I've started to live again. Now I feel strong. The pain will never go away, but the love I had..." She stops.

"I have been loved, and I have loved back. That is more than most people have experianced".

The cellphone line is broken.

"What I meant to say was that where other people can go into a church,and declare their love, where others can have children, I must scream out my love in a differat form. For me the book is about closeing a dooe. Slowy. the door into death, and into Tonio".

Have you been scared?

"No. Why should I have been? I am not the kind of person to run when I am attacked. When 5 policemen are trying to press you, you cannot show fear".

Who killed T?

"I have a theory, but can never be 100% sure.It's a corrupt country".

How is the investigation going?

"This case will never be closed"

Why are you so negative?

"I have hope, but don't really believe it. Scotland Yard is on the case I have heard".

Her life has all the elemants of a hollywood film. Directors are already fighting over the rights.

It is 15 years since N fisrt left her heart in africa. She grew up on a farm in southern Sweden. A Danish mother and Swedish father. N wnet to RSA to educate herself in hunting and conservation. She dropped out of the school, and ended up in Tanzania where she became an apprentice. She then went home but was bitten by the africa bug.

"I approached a man who was going to make a documentory about hunting in africa. And was allowed to join him. I scraped together my last funds, and invited my mother out to lunch in Copenhagen, where I told her I was leaving, and wouldn't return".

"The biggest moment in my life was when I was 14 years old. I realized that the world was mine for the taking. I grew up with hunting. My father hunted. Luckly my parent forgot to tell me that it is not expected of girls to hunt".

Nothing could stop her.
" I'm an adventurer. I have to go out and explore. This is my home now. When I opn my eyes and look out on the savanna, I see the giraffes and zebras. I feel loved by nature. If there is anything I fear in nature it is when I meet other people. Not animals".

Do you miss home?

"I don't miss Sweden or denmark. It's nice to visit though. To midsummer eve and sausages. I can also be nostalgic. And there is something we don't get here- The safety and security you get as a woman in Scandinavia. I have been scared of the way women are treated here".

Do you have any advice for your sisters in the north?

"If anything; Try to be yourself. And be more quiet. Try to live alone for some months, at least a couple of times in your life. Try to feel the silence. Find a place where you can hear yourself".

Where she is sitting on the other side of the world, she says:

"This is not a place you can escape from . Today we have walked ofr 12 hours. I'm so in contact with nature. Everything is so pleasant now. I'm happy. What I love in life is to write and to hunt. tHe ultimate hunt for me is for buffalo. It is an intelligent and dangerous animal. I would be lieing if I said I hadn't been afraid during the hunt, but when I'm out hunting, such as tonight, it is jsut so beautiful. And these animals. God, I've been lucky.

Both animals rightists and other women have critisized her.

"Many say hunting is the same as murder. They accuse me of being evil, for not caring abouyt nature, just because I shoot lions. But the same people eat meat, and wear shoes made of leather."

She knows her book will create havoc.

"I'm prepaired for the lies that will come, but I promised the man to look after his soul"

Will you love again?'

"I keep the door open. I won't be bitter, only loosers are bitter. Then I might as well have shot myself. I want a lover, that is for sure. But that I will love a man again, let him all the way... That I'm not so sure of. That person must really be something then. I can not go back to something mediocre in my life"

02 October 2005, 05:20

ElCaballero

Sorry Tex.

Thank you Erik for the translation.

What a tragedy of a story. I would sure like to get my hands on that book. Of course I will have to have Erick read it to me. Sounds like a hell of a woman!

02 October 2005, 09:28

BFaucett

Tex,

Yes, me too, sorry for the thread hijack.

Erik,

Thank you very much for taking the time and effort to translate the article!! I enjoyed reading it very much.

Sincerely,
-Bob F.

02 October 2005, 09:41

shakari

I met her a couple of years ago and it is a .458 (mono) bullet she wears around her neck.... but she told me it was from her first charging Buffalo and not her first Buffalo......which kinda brings us back on topic..........

02 October 2005, 15:02

Tex21

No problem with the diversion guys.

I've got the answers I wanted and I've really enjoyed the discussion.

Thanks all!

Tex

02 October 2005, 20:26

Atkinson

BF,
I was just adding some knowledge as to what pHs carrey for what it was worth, added that tidbit of info on Natasha...

She is a fine lady..I believe she was presented the 465 double as a gift early on...

She is a good friend of Pierres and Hammish Manning, that is how I met her..

02 October 2005, 20:49

Pete E

If anyone is looking for bolt action a .458 these days, is there any reason not to go for the Lott? Or is the Lott still a handloaders round?

02 October 2005, 20:58

465H&H

458RugerNo1
I have used the 500gr Woodleigh in a 458 Lott to take 5 eles and one buff. The amount of peneration I experienced was impressive. Velocity was 2,140 fps. In one case I placed an insurance shot between the shoulders of a large downed cow. The 550 gr solid went though the spine and was found under the skin on the brisket. I didn't measure the depth of penetration but it had to be around 5 feet. I think if you want deep penetration out of the Lott give the 550 gr woodleigh a try. You won't be disapointed.

465H&H

02 October 2005, 21:04

surestrike

Pete,

The Lott is comercially built by Ruger, Winchester and CZ. The ammo is factory loaded by Hornandy and possibly others? (I am a hand loader so I really don't know about factory ammo in this round.)

I think that it is gaining popularity by the day. When I built my first heavy rifle it was a Lott and I have never looked back.

Seeing that the Lott will shoot both rounds capably I think it is the no brainer choice. Kind of like a .44 mag vs a .44 special. Just get the bigger one and then you have the option of shooting both rounds.

02 October 2005, 21:18

Pete E

surestrike,

I tend to agree with you, but i am wondering if there is something i am missing?

Is there any down side to using a .458win mag ammo in the Lott for instance? Is Lott ammo difficult to get hold of in Africa? Much more expensive over there maybe?

I also wonder just how many PH's load their own?

Regards,

Pete

02 October 2005, 21:54

Mickey1

Pete

There is a problem when you use any smaller cartridge in a rifle with the pressures you are dealling with.

The Win. case is shorter, thus tapered more. The end of the shell will have space around it to expand upon firing. The bullet will be seated into the chamber where the shell would normally sit in the Lott/.375 Weatherby/any other similiar case.

Will it work, sure. Will hurt the rifle? Maybe. The more you do it the more problems you create.

Better to just load the Lott down.

03 October 2005, 01:23

Jarrod

What was this thread about again? I kind of lost my concentration after all those pictures of Natasha were posted.

03 October 2005, 06:34

surestrike

quote:
Originally posted by Pete E:
surestrike,

I tend to agree with you, but i am wondering if there is something i am missing?

Is there any down side to using a .458win mag ammo in the Lott for instance? Is Lott ammo difficult to get hold of in Africa? Much more expensive over there maybe?

I also wonder just how many PH's load their own?

Regards,

Pete

Pete,

Good questions all. I have seen a tremendous intrest in the Lott from all of the PHs I talk to in Africa. The lott craze seems to be in full swing on in Africa as well.

But I can't answer your questions because I just don't know what the availability and expense is for this round "over there".