The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Alright Gentlemen: Somebody start the SCI reportGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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For the record before I start.. 1) I go to SCI every year. I have never, and will never 'donate' anything other than the minimum requirement in cash. 2) I am a life member of SCI. 3) SCI could have (and still could) make a real possitive contribution to conservation. In Africa they had a great team initially. Andre de Georges (who knew Africa and cared about wildlife) and Linda Veter (who knew something about administration). They starte to try and get the changes through that African countries were asking for, and to a limited extent what the operators wanted. Andre was replaced by someone with several 'vested interrests'. John Jacson Quit SCi as soon as he had finished his term as it's president- sued and won, and sarted his own organisation actually doing things for hunters - geting hunting areas opened, getting trophies alowed into the USA etc. Sure as heck he makes a good living out of it but he atually does something- for both US hunters and African conservation - other than encourage and perpetuate the coruption. In 1994 Zimbabwe National Parks submitted a formal recomendation to SCI to change their scoring system for buffalo. Adoctoral research programme (by a member of this forum) had shown selective hunting by American hunters Was inducing genetic drift (other nationalities were far less driven by SCI scoring criteria and helped water down the malign influence of American Hunters). They wrote again in 1996. Kevin Roberson launched a direct attack on the sytem at SCI 2 years ago...This year I met a sweet lass who was giving talks on and being funded to conduct limited research in Zim on the declining buffalo trophy quality.... 4) | |||
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Steve, I believe that you are correct. SCI does not publish how much they make from donations, nor I think, will they ever. Not that I feel they should be expected to reveal all income line items as I would not be expected to in a business. What they spend is fairly well documented on their web site and the SCIF web site. And some clearly feel that their location justifies their donation. Well,enough of this... Les | |||
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Check this http://www.showsci.org/docs/co...Africa%20Section.pdf and bear in mind it's just the tip of a very large iceberg. Firstly, those donations on top of the booth and add on price works out as a helluva expensive booth. Secondly, every donation equates to a similar value lost to the industry that has to be replaced by that value being split between the number of clients over the rest of the season. Thus driving up prices unnecessarily and penalising all the other hunters that book throughout the season. Thirdly, the sale price goes to an organisation that doesn't appear to tell anyone where the money goes. None of those things strike me as fair! | |||
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SCI? Well, just who are the men behind the organ pipes, curtains, and plumes of smoke? Who, by name, are the guys actually responsible for SCI policies? Yes, I can read the masthead, but all organizations have their true movers and shakers. So, who are the real names behind the final decisions? And---more importantly--do these same guys have business relationships with any convention vendors? Can anyone out there help us follow the money? As for competing conventions and shows. Competition is good. It's always good. In the long run, both the consumer and the industry will be better off. I'd love to see a Africa only show. 114-R10David | |||
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This is getting very boring! | |||
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I am assuming you are correct about the Moz elephant issue, and there are probably others as well. But your post would indicate they do nothing to support hunters. Are you saying SCI is not doing anything to promote hunting issues or are you saying they could do more? If so, how do you propose they pay for that increased effort? Minimum effort will get minimum results. Jim "Bwana Umfundi" NRA | |||
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Yes, I agree, I am sorry I got sucked into this silly argument again. Les | |||
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Jim, I really didn't want this to turn into SCI bashing which is why I avoided that one particular issue in the first place. What I'm saying is that as has been said, SCI is reputedly, largely a lobbying organisation that protects hunters rights...... if that's the case, I'd like to know why they have failed to challenge USF&WS over their refusal to allow import of sport hunted Moz elephant products for over 20 years, despite them having a legitimate CITES quota and a management plan that is no worse and (IMO) better than some others. - If ever there was a project tailor made for SCI to take on, it's that one. - Yet they ignore it for over 2 decades! To say nothing of the other issues such as the so called ethics committee that I've previously mentioned. Incidentally, the company I was discussing earlier have an attorney who shares the same name with the new SCI President. Whether they're related or not, I have no idea.  Les, Hey, you asked, I answered. Like I said earlier, I didn't want this to turn into an SCI bashing thread. However, as all this got discussed, I'm sure many people will now appreciate why an alternative, donation free, Africa only show would be very attractive to a lot of exhibitors. | |||
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Shakari, I think SCI would be more involved with the Moz Elephant issue, BUT there is no "Outer Circle Ring of Power" for elephant from each country in africa. | |||
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And, interestingly, some of the Moz outfitters assured us [sotto voce, of course] that the Moz elephant solution was imminent. Do they know something or was that "Marketing"? Les | |||
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Les, Moz have worked their arses off for 20 years to get things changed but so far USF&WS have been adament in their refusal....... The issue should have been challenged by SCI many years ago. Even if it were changed tomorrow it would be 20 years too late and more importantly, no thanks to SCI. Although if it did change, I have no doubt they would try to claim credit. | |||
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Mike; Essentially it went pretty much along the lines of this thread. Several valid concerns mixed with lots of opinions, toss in a few axes to grind, considerable redundancy, and many hours later mostly questions w/o answers. | |||
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Steve: It's been nearly 11 years since I retired from my post at SCI, but I am proud to be a life member and I'd like to straighten out some misinformation prevalent on the AR forum. 1. SCI is more than its convention. Although its shows are its major source of income, second only to its publications and grants, there is more to the organization than just the club we call "SCI." There also is the Safari Club International Foundation, a separate entity that does its conservation and charitable work. I have no idea how much SCIF spends on conservation or protecting hunting in just Africa, but I do know it is a lot more than the number that Saeed has claimed. The cost of operating its African office in South Africa alone certainly must be more than that number. 2. Convention exhibitors are not forced to donate items or hunts. If they want to exhibit their wares from a booth, they have the option of paying an additional $600 instead of donating anything. The outfitters I've known who have donated very expensive hunts did so because they wanted to "make a splash." 3. Not all auctioned hunts are 100% donations. On many, outfitters receive a percentage of the bid. 3. I know a large number of African outfitters who are entirely happy with SCI's conventions, and get almost all of their clients from them. At least three of these companies have exhibited only at SCI conventions since the late 1970s and are among Africa's largest and most successful. 4. I know very little about how the SCI ethics committee operates today, but I do know it has investigated and expelled many people over the years for illegal and unethical activities. Why it hasn't thrown out the outfitter that gets your motor (and Saeed"s) racing, I have no clue. I do know that past presidents have historically had little clout after their terms in office. Perhaps this also will happen with the guy you've mentioned, so let's see what happens in 18 months to the outfitter you have lambasted. 5. The Dallas Safari Club is a great organization, and if I lived in Texas I would join it. I certainly would attend its conventions (I've done so only once), but it is a local club, without the international scope and mandate of SCI. It does not have an office in Washington D.C. with lobbyists and attorneys, nor does it (to my knowledge) send representatives to the CITES and governmental meetings. At this moment, the only organization with international political clout that is attempting to represent and protect all of the world's (sport) hunters is SCI and I will continue to support it, warts and all. Bill Quimby | |||
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Granted... I think most outfitters would agree that the majority of their Int clients are 50+YO - those who can afford the time and money. Guys at A&M may well not be able to afford it now but in 20 years time they will be starting to think about such things... if they are exposed to it!! Exposing future hunters to what we offer is where SCI (and other org's) make our real money and hopefully the future... If we dont support these org's we might as well quit now... A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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Sounds exactly like the Obama Administration, and confirmed with the SOTU address?? Larry Sellers SCI Life Member
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That's rediculous Bill! Your entire argument is loused up with reason, fact, and first hand experience! I need more hearsay and inuendo! Clearly you have no idea what you're talking about! Brett DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
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You forgot speculation and lies Brett!! A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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The more shows the better. If the african safari industry wants to grow this is the way to do it. The majority of hunters in the U.S. don't have the africa bug like we do. I didn't get it until my mid to later 20's. There is a huge population of "Joe hunters" that need to be targeted. It is a very small percentage of U.S. hunters that even have an interest in hunting africa. Probably less than a third of the guys I know who hunt have any desire to go to africa. But they can catch the bug as well. Seriously how many of your average income hunters will travel across the country for a hunting show. Much less than 1% of them. But if there's a neat show within 200 miles you will draw the majority of them. Even those average joes can afford a plains game safari every few years if it's something they decide they really want to do and within a couple decades those young guys will be the ones able and willing to do the big african hunts. Don't turn it into a pissing contest with another show like SCI. But if there are good alternatives to SCI then that is even better for African PH's that want nothing to do with SCI. Another thing, if you are over 30 you owe it to yourself and the health of the sport to mentor a youngster in hunting. I do as many hunting shows across the country as I can because that's the best cost-effective way for me to build my brand. It works the same for selling hunts. | |||
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Bill, I did say I don't have a problem with the organisation per se or it's members, (hell, I generally like the members). What I said was I had a problem with the donation scheme (as do many others) and I have a problem with the ethics committee and the lack of action over Mozambique. (as do many others) I'm not even knocking the inner circle thing. Frankly, I those few objections are perfectly valid. I also said I didn't intend this to turn into a 'knock SCI' thread and even deliberately tried to avoid answering a question to ensure that. When it was asked a second time, I answered. Any chance we can get back to discussing the pros and cons of a new donation free/Africa only show?  | |||
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any chance we could actually get back to THE ORIGINAL QUESTION POSED ON THIS THREAD- before it became the monthly Shakari anti- SCI DIATRIBE? Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… To quote a former AND CURRENT Trumpiteer - DUMP TRUMP | |||
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You need to re-read my posts bwana. I keep trying to do just that and even deliberately avoided questions to achieve that goal..... but was then asked why I hadn't answered the question. | |||
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I think you'll bite yourself in the ass if it's an africa only show. Like I said the majority of U.S. hunters aren't into Africa, yet. There needs to be other types of hunting to draw the crowd. That's when you pitch them on africa and infect them with "The Bug". I think you could do a heavy africa theme but you've got to have other draws to get a big crowd. I can think of several new upstart hunting shows in the past five years that failed to last more than three years before pulling the plug. So you've got to do some serious research on location, timing and everything else. Advertising is a huge cost but if you don't invest in it you won't get the crowd. There's a lot of factors to make a show work and I don't think it's easy to make it work economically. As a vendor I've done some shows that were really weak in the past. It costs a lot of money to travel and do shows, if it's a weak show with no crowd or no spenders I never return. If you have one bad show you'll never get the vendors back. So it has to be a big success the first time out. Timing is also critical. There are so many shows competing for the same weekend between Jan-March that this will also make it tougher. There are some real successful july-august shows but that wouldn't work for safari companies. April seems to be a dead time for shows so it may be easier to find quality vendors. Of course that's when you're competing with spring fever and everyone wanting to get outdoors for fishing, turkey hunting and everything else. I think your best option is to find an existing successful hunting show and partner up with them to have a huge semi independent africa section and make an even larger and better show. The people with good shows have been doing it for years. They know what works and already have the regional sportsmen trained to show up every year for the annual event. I'm sure if you have a big enough group together you could get some huge savings on money, logistics and headaches. Plus what promoter wouldn't look at that as an added value to an already successful show. Otherwise I think it's a very steep uphill battle to make it work. A large african fraternity might appeal to a promoter wanting to take their show to the next level. Sorry for rambling, it's late. | |||
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Gee Steve why is it the only person that thinks you are NOT on your usual anti-SCI DIATRIBE is you. Oh yea the rest of the world is wrong only you and Saeed are correct, eh. MY MY MY! | |||
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DOJ, You might like to practice your reading skills.  | |||
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I guess all of us do then, eh. | |||
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I rather think most understand the written word....... however, maybe not quite all.  That one was just toooo tempting to let go. | |||
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Well I see which end of the tack describes you. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Alright Gentlemen: Somebody start the SCI report
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