I'm in. Keep posting details.

quote:

Originally posted by Zig Mackintosh:
The African Hunting Show, hosted by the African Hunting Gazette, will take place in Atlanta, Georgia January 15-16 2011. Everyone is invited!

Zig Mackintosh.

That is awesome!! Count me in for sure.

I do not know how my thread got twisted to this...but...yes, man!! I'm in 100%

Well the president elect of SCI stormed out of a meeting with the Zim PH association when awkward facts were presented. The main one being that OOA are officaialy banned from operating in Zimbabwe and yet are still advertising zim hunts...ie they are openly offering something illegal.

And yes, African Hunting Gazzette has started running their own show in Canada, and that seems to have taken off well enough to encourage them to try in the USA.

I must say that I would be much happier with a trade show where the only folk their were actually looking to book a hunt than 200,000 tire kickers who will never, ever see Africa!

For me, this year was much better than normal. 1/2 the number of people but no decrease in real interest. I suspect SCI took a hammering on entry fees (at arround $100 a day, all the missing tire kickers soon add up!!!) but was also told they had insurance against such an event.

The only thing that REALLY pisses me off about the donations is when a hunt is genuinely worth 10k and somebody buy's it for 2k...I would rather sell the hunt and donate cash or something else that will actually go on auction for close to it's real value.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ganyana:
Well the president elect of SCI stormed out of a meeting with the Zim PH association when awkward facts were presented. The main one being that OOA are officaialy banned from operating in Zimbabwe and yet are still advertising zim hunts...ie they are openly offering something illegal.

Nice professional behaviour. It's all about the Benjamins...

Jeff

quote:

The African Hunting Show, hosted by the African Hunting Gazette, will take place in Atlanta, Georgia January 15-16 2011. Everyone is invited!

I wish they would have picked a City a little more in the Central US like ST. Louis. I would like to see more details. Is there a Web Site?

quote:

Originally posted by larrys01:
Is there a Wed Site?

Actually yes. Mostly Russian girls, but they're plenty happy to wed.

Brett

I have sent an email to richard Lendrum advising him to get the girl's profiles up

I doubt Vodka and Scotch would go well togather.

Well, let's see?? Now we will have (3) three Shows in January all competing for the same crowd of Show goers. This will most likely mean a smaller attendance for each show? Cutting the pie into more pieces will mean each one will suffer in attendance and no real advantage to anyone. More expense for vendors in travel and booth fees, to display to smaller audiences?? Show goers will most likely pick just one to attend? Doesn't sound too impressive to me. The market most likely won't support this to a degree where anyone will manage to stay afloat.

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Sellers:
Well, let's see?? Now we will have (3) three Shows in January all competing for the same crowd of Show goers. This will most likely mean a smaller attendance for each show? Cutting the pie into more pieces will mean each one will suffer in attendance and no real advantage to anyone. More expense for vendors in travel and booth fees, to display to smaller audiences?? Show goers will most likely pick just one to attend? Doesn't sound too impressive to me. The market most likely won't support this to a degree where anyone will manage to stay afloat.

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

I would guess those that are dissatisfied with SCI would forgoe SCI and attend the new show instead. I'd also guess the DSC show probably wouldn't suffer much, if at at all.

Of the guys in the business I know, many are unhappy with SCI for various reasons but I don't think I've ever heard a complaint about DSC.

FWIW, I know of at least 2 PHA AGMs last year where there was a lot of debate about the SCI show but I'm not aware of any complaints about the other shows.

Time will tell I guess.

Larry- I'm with you buddy. Anyone who thinks they will be able to just attend "Only Africa" show will be in for a surprise. Just think how hard it will be to stand out in an all African Show??? How does someone buy a Truck from a room full of dealers with the same product!

All these different shows, is going to cost outfitters big time. And there aren't many people who will venture out to multiple shows a year. Especially if it's out of state.

Concerning the auction items, I do feel for outfitters being "forced to donate", however we all choose to operate our businesses in certain formats. If you're in the hunting industry, selling international hunts, I don't see how you could justify not being at DSC and SCI. It's the system...and it works.

Now for the future, I think the safari industry as a whole is going through a culling process. The amount of people with disposable income that can be spent on high end hunts is decreasing rapidly. Many of the aging big hunters are reaching or have reached retirement age, and they will not be making the same hunts. Now, big game hunts fall into a special category, but think about plainsgame. How many people will continue to hunt plainsgame???? over and over? I would venture to say, very few.

The simple fact is this, the old timers who have kept much of this safari industry moving are wrapping up their hunting careers, and there are not near enough to young hunters to fill their spots. Times are changing, and outiftters will have to continue to fight over a smaller slice of pie and still stay compeitive.

Oryx,

Buddy, I don't agree..... there's some brilliantly talented and very ambitious young PHs out there and I'd say they're more than ready to step into the shoes of the old greybeards.

As for the new show....... I'd guess that lower booth prices and absence of donation requirement plus a lower perecentage of tyre kickers because it's an Africa show might make the new one a very attractive alternative to a lot of the guys.

As I said previously. I guess time will tell.

Steve,

You've missed definition of "old timers". I'm refering to hunters, clients, not PHs. I'm saying the amount of younger people getting into the sport of international hunting is not large enough to fill the spots taken up by senior aged hunters of yesteryear! THUS the pie is shrinking.

The only way, that an all african show could possibly work is this, IMO if most african hunting companies boycott all other shows. Because why go to a show with just africans when you can go to DSC or SCI and see everyone. Remember this isn't about the outfitters, it's about what the CLIENTS are going to do. I don't know a sinlge ice-cream shop selling only one flavor that has made it.

It would be a huge risk...and people aren't going to abandon SCI or DSC, most people are not so informed, and don't give a rip about all the politics of SCI, they just want to go somewhere see tons of hunting stuff and talk to outfitters, there's tons of stuff on AR, bashing SCI that most people don't give a rip about!

Steve - I believe Oryx was talking about the "hunters" who go on the hunts and not the "hunters" PH's that conduct the hunts.

Anytime the pie is cut into addiditional pieces, everyone involved seems to suffer. I know my wife can't get by with this when that fresh apple pie pops out of the oven.

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Oryx,

Buddy, I don't agree..... there's some brilliantly talented and very ambitious young PHs out there and I'd say they're more than ready to step into the shoes of the old greybeards.

As for the new show....... I'd guess that lower booth prices and absence of donation requirement plus a lower perecentage of tyre kickers because it's an Africa show might make the new one a very attractive alternative to a lot of the guys.

As I said previously. I guess time will tell.

Sorry guys, I misunderstood.

Now I'm on the right track. I'd guess it'd be better for the buyers.

Less irrelevent stuff for them to troll through. (Probably)lower exhibition and entry prices plus of course no hunt donation.

I'd have thought the hunt outfitters prices would be lower and more affordable.

Sounds like a win win situation to me!

I started forming comments to share with the first post and by the time I got to the bottom of page 2 I forgot what the post was about, much less my various contributions to this a..."tangled thread"!

So cutting away some of the knots; so to speak, I thought the show was well attended, with an upbeat crowd both in and along side the isles.

The day auction time I spent it seemed that the straightforward quality items sold well and at significant portion of FMV. Those with lots of strings, single date openings, many not included fees, etc. sold for what may or may not have been bargain prices considering the limited audience for those types of items.

I spoke to a lot of younger people that were first timers, which were in awe and excited and will probably be back with more of their friends. Some had booked starter hunts.

I spoke to a lot of the been there, done that crowd that weren't as excited and talked about maybe not being back or at least sitting out a year somewhere down the road. (Of course some have said that for a good number of years.)

Those outfitter exhibitors I talked to by late Saturday felt is was; “not as good as 5 years ago…but certainly better than last.”

I tried to get some info from OoA regarding lost trophies for a client and got the dazed looks of a deer in the headlights, ultimately had to be satisfied with; "the trucks on the road..." !

The SCI board meeting was a disgrace!

The taxi drivers, restaurateurs, convention center employees etc were as delighted to see us and as genuinely friendly as ever.

The weather was typical and at least some that could not drive over when the pass closed took the train, and many of those that got delayed in Denver, Phoenix and elsewhere due to weather hung tough and came on in late.

……………………… and………………..

Oryxhunter1983 covered many of my comments regarding an “all Africa show”. A couple issues that come to mind as an attendee is: how to discern a “fly by night outfits from the real deal” without the ready endorsement of many vested members and likewise since an Atlanta show would very likely draw a new crowd including a large number of “mostly curious” (tire kickers) it may be tough for vendors to sort through the lot.

So…it will be interesting to see if the larger outfits do all 3 shows and the smaller outfits need to choose, whose resources will be diminished first. It would seem that with the number of folks on the SCI waiting list it could take quite some time to bring them to the table of change.

Additionally beyond the mostly courious, w/o potential deals at auctions, a familiar crowd etc. I wondering how many of the been there done that bunch will add a 3rd venue to their winter travels, or forgo the familiar?

As always...

Best Regards
Mike O

Don't see such a big deal, just another regional show (albet limited in nature), but my question is how much is the promoter going to donate back to Africian hunting causes. I sure won't spend the bucks to attend. Will just keep going to Dallas and if I have extra bucks and time go to Reno.

I may be comparing apples to oranges here but in the early 90's we exhibited at the SCI "East Coast" show. Oh what a dud it was! For that matter we exhibited at the very last Game Coin in San Antonio in the early 90's. Another dud!
Guess the early 90's were a DUD?

Rich Elliott

I would rather see us all get on the same page than splinter into more groups. I think some compromise on all sides is in order. People, especially type A people dont like to compromise on anything so it will be difficult but not impossible.


Madabula, Can you expllaqin and give some details about the board meeting?
Ganyana, I would have paid just to see that little episode over OOA.

DOJ - Interesting observation?? Seems like the speakers here for "what have you done for Africa lately" haven't popped up on this one yet?

New show, lots of expenses, questionable location and timing. My guess, if they have a profit, none will be forthcoming to anyone except the organizers. Forget Africa getting anything from this upstart.

Ditto on not spending bucks to attend a Regional show when the entire spectrum can be seen at SCI or DSC.

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
Don't see such a big deal, just another regional show (albet limited in nature), but my question is how much is the promoter going to donate back to Africian hunting causes. I sure won't spend the bucks to attend. Will just keep going to Dallas and if I have extra bucks and time go to Reno.

I have definitely noticed a decline in younger hunters coming to the shows over the years (both SCI and DSC).

This does not bode well for the future of hunting - anywhere in the world !!

Are we at a cross roads in the industry where SCI and DSC are fast becoming an "old boys club " and I am not talking about the PH's or Outfitters.

Game Coin suffered this same fate - and we all know what happened to that show.

Maybe the new "metro male" is being turned off by all the bravado, chest beating egotistical image of shooting and killing - and does not want to be associated with this type of lifestyle - in case of offending his fellow peers, where his status, as a more responsible person towards the environment in a modern society might be questioned and frowned upon.

Are the anti hunters and greenies getting to the younger generation of hunters, thus influencing them that this type of sport is no longer "fashionable", especially when there are so many other sports and outdoor activities to choose from ?

I certainly hope this is not the case !

However I cannot help but wonder that maybe our younger generation of hunters are put off by what has/is happening in the hunting profession with regards to all the unethical and underhanded dealings that are ever present in our industry.

Maybe we are our own worst enemy.

By not protecting and enhancing the proper image of sport hunting, we are setting the wrong examples for future generations.

No maybe about it. You are right on with all your observations Mark.

I may have a simplistic approach/viewpoint, but I thought the show was great! The AR gathering on Friday was fun, and I had time to ask serious questions to several PHs about 2011. There were still plenty of bargains for those willing to search them out.

Can't wait for 2011.

Rich
sixty-nine days until I am again doing that thing JudgeG speaks of...

Spot on Mark!

quote:

Originally posted by Mark DeWet:

Maybe the new "metro male" is being turned off by all the bravado, chest beating egotistical image of shooting and killing - and does not want to be associated with this type of lifestyle - in case of offending his fellow peers, where his status, as a more responsible person towards the environment in a modern society might be questioned and frowned upon.

Are the anti hunters and greenies getting to the younger generation of hunters, thus influencing them that this type of sport is no longer "fashionable", especially when there are so many other sports and outdoor activities to choose from ?

That may be the case in parts of the USA, USA overall, certainly in parts or all of Europe ... but in places like Texas and some other souther US states I would say that is definitely not the case. Walk into into any downtown bar in Dallas, Houston or San Antonio or Austin and ask who wants to go deer or quail hunting. Hell I cant hardly stop in at any store wearing a camo hat or company shirt and not get involved in some hunting conversation...

Thank God for Texas I say!!

As for the Africa-only show.... you want MORE Africans in one room????

This thread has sure taken a lot of turns. I sure wish I could contribute to the original post, but this was the first show I missed in 10 years.

I believe the thoughts on a new show dedicated to african hunting have missed a major point. While many folks (thinking more than half) attend SCI for reason other than African hunting, they are potential African hunters. To set up a show that eliminated most of them is a big mistake.

I had read O'Conner and Capstick, but attending my first SCI convention really lit the fire for hunting Africa. I was a deer hunter, but my first SCI convention changed everything.

While SCI has its issues, many of the loudest complainers are not members. Letting these few influence a successful exhibitor into leaving for an "exclusive African show" would be a mistake. Where else can an exhibitor set up a booth in front of 20,000 potential customers?

Jim,

You raise some very good issues there but I think many/most people really have no idea about the degree of resentment felt by many/most of the guys in the (African) hunting industry over both the donation and the ethics cttee issues.

Sure, the general hunting public won't hear much about these issues from the guys in the industry but the reason for that is obvious...... but I can tell you the resentment is most certainly there (and getting worse every year) and I can also tell you it's a very hot topic of conversation when only industry people get together.

Whether the show should be Africa only or hunting worldwide or whether it will be a success or not, I simply don't know but I do know that a non SCI show with no requirement for a donation would be of great interest to a lot of Africa based hunting companies at least.

All that said, if SCI ditched the donation requirement and cleaned up it's ethics, I'd guess many people would prefer to stay with SCI.

Upset Africans??? Well... I never!!!

I thought ethics were a personal thing?

I donated a (genuine) $10,000 hunt... I didnt have to, I could have paid the extra cash. The hunt sold for $9000 I think.... I got a new client (good guy it seems) and hopefully the money raised is used to further our industry in one wau or another, even if it is only to support that the show that encourages so many to travel and hunt the wild places.The only people I hear moaning about the donation are those that it has nothing to do with or those trying to climb the SCI preference ladder... the others just keep donating!!

Matt,

You misunderstand mate. I'm not referring to individual hunter's ethics, I'm referring to hunting and business ethics of individual hunting companies.

For example, where SCI members have been ripped off and filed complaints to the ethics committee who have then (repeatedly) defended the company in question. Apparently because they are large donators.

I can give you an example. A few years ago, I was in Pietersburg airport and got chatting to 2 very unhappy hunters who had bought a hunt at the SCI auction.

The package they paid for was a 2x1 hunt with camp exclusivity.

When they arrived in camp, they found 18, yes, 18 other hunters in the same camp who had all bought similar packages at the same auction.

The guys I met stayed a day and then decided to go home for the obvious reasons. They were on their way home when I met them at the airport.

They and other hunters involved all filed a complaint about the incident with the ethics committee who then found in favour of the safari company!

The same company have had no end of other complaints relating to everything from non delivery of trophies to non payment to illegal hunting made against them.

I won't comment on who the company are but I fail to understand how with their track record they can continue to get booth space at the convention.

It's incidents like that that are pissing people off and it's the illegal hunting issue that is especially and quite understandably pissing the Zimbos off.

FWIW, I personally know at least three guys in the hunting industry that have also been ripped off by the same company.

quote:

When they arrived in camp, they found 18, yes, 18 other hunters in the same camp who had all bought similar packages at the same auction.

How is that possible??? How could 19 similar hunts from the same company be sold at the one auction???

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

When they arrived in camp, they found 18, yes, 18 other hunters in the same camp who had all bought similar packages at the same auction.

How is that possible??? How could 19 similar hunts from the same company be sold at the one auction???

They were 2x1 hunts which would equate to 10 packages in total..... but you'd be better off asking SCI that question mate!

Steve,

I hope this tale of 20 hunters on one hunt, or 10 hunts, is not the entire basis for your anti SCI crusade. Unless you were there, in camp, there is no way of determining the truth, could have been two grumpy guys, that misunderstood the deal or, more likely, did not do their homework. Not much evidence here, it seems.

As far as your concern for your fellow PH/Outfitters, It seems that many do not feel strongly enough to stay away from the shows entirely as you have. They must have calculated the profit/loss of attending and come up on the positive side? Even Saeed's friends the Vincents were there, in a very nicely placed location. As were many other AR participants.

No one is forcing anyone to exhibit or attend these shows. And, the members of SCI and DSC, at least, have the satisfaction of knowing that some of the show income is going to be used in thier behalf, one way or another.

If SCI were to do away with donations and merely raise the booth prices to realize the same income, how many outfitters would even be able to attend, it is obviously cheaper for them to offer the hunts to auction than pay the [already in place alternative ] $$$ price.

And, while it is obvious that you do not care, without the donation income, there would be no SCI, and there would be none of the service they provide, [even if you do not approve of whatever they provide, these services are more than nothing!]

Now, I feel guilty about hijacking bcolyer's post here. Maybe we can continue this in another format.

Les

Mark Dewet,
I'm totally with you, this industry is dying, and if I was an outfitter, I would definitely encourage my kids to look into other avenues for jobs.

At 26, I have been very fortunate to have taken 2 safaris on my own dime, and are planning a third. However, I don't know a single other person who is in my boat. At SCI events, my peers are virtually non-existant.

Matt- I live in Texas, and go to the 2nd biggest University, A&M, which is good ol boy, hunting country...and sure everyone claims to hunt deer and quail...but international hunting is something completely different. And again, I don't know anyone else at my school that does any types of safaris.

Les,

No my friend, that isn't the only reason I'm not a fan of SCI. It's just a typical example of how that particular company behaves and how the ethics committee fail to address perfectly valid complaints from their members.

Incidentally, it's not a crusade, not do I mean to portray it a such.... it's just the firmly held opinion by one individual. Nothing more and nothing less. - Maybe partly based on my English sense of fair play.

I get the idea that you think I'm completely anti SCI? - That isn't the case at all. I've always enjoyed the company of individual SCI members immensely and I'm not even against the organisation per se. BUT, I do feel the organisation could do a lot more than they actually do and I dislike the donations system and the ethics committee intensely.

As far as the inner circle thing is concerned, it's no skin off my nose what they do but I have to say I reckon it's all a bit silly.... but hey, if that's what the guys want to do, then that's fine be me.

Just think what a magnificent organisation SCI could become if they addressed things differently. They could abandon the donation scheme and thus recover an immense amount of goodwill from the donators, start supporting their members with regard to complaints in a proper manner, address the looooong everdue issue of Mozambican elephant import into the USA just for a start.

As I see it, there's not a single organisation in the world that has the potential to do so much good for so many hunters worldwide but choose instead to persue profitability and mutual glorification etc instead.

Which is why I left.

Look everybody, we all know Steve has a hard on for SCI and nothing anyone can do or say (That includes SCI) will ever change that. I am also sure SCI could care less what his opinion is and his ramblings will not hurt SCI as those that know him via the net understand his ramblings and opinions (which he is entitled to have) and take them with a grain of salt, nuff said, eh.

quote:

You raise some very good issues there but I think many/most people really have no idea about the degree of resentment felt by many/most of the guys in the (African) hunting industry over both the donation and the ethics cttee issues.

quote:

Which is why I left

So you think leaving the organization had more influence in making the changes you seek than those members who addressed SCI leadership?

I am an annual member, not involved in any "Circle", and will never have an entry in any book, it's just not my thing. I enjoy the shows, believe there is power in numbers, and while there are issues, SCI is a major lobby supporting my world wide hunting interests.

Jim,

You said:

"So you think leaving the organization had more influence in making the changes you seek than those members who addressed SCI leadership?"

If I'd been a member in the US changing things from within might have been an option (although probably not) but as I was a UK member, the chances of changing anything from there would have been laughable.

I also note you said: "SCI is a major lobby supporting my world wide hunting interests".

If that's the case, why aren't they addressing the issue of Mozambican elephant trophy import for US hunters?

After all, they've had something like 20 years to do so but to date don't seem to have done anything about it at all. - If there ever was an issue that's right for them to lobby and take legal action to support hunters it's that one.

Like I said, I've always enjoyed the company of individual SCI members immensely.

quote:

...If SCI were to do away with donations and merely raise the booth prices to realize the same income, how many outfitters would even be able to attend, it is obviously cheaper for them to offer the hunts to auction than pay the [already in place alternative ] $$$ price.

...without that donation income, there would be no SCI, and there would be none of the service they provide, [even if you do not approve of whatever they provide, these services are more than nothing!]

Steve,

While I am happy that you still like me and I still like you...you missed or ignored the above central point.

Without the donations to be auctioned the booth rent would be very much higher. SCI takes donations in lieu of higher rents, and it obviously makes sense for all those that donate to do it that way - they all have the option of paying additional dolars if they choose.

SCI needs to generate "X" number of dollars to operate. It must come from somewhere. if they do not make "X" from the convention, then their mission will be diminished. If they make nothing from the show [no donations and not higher rents as you seem to suggest] there would be no SCI and there would be no convention. Why would they bother? Who would do all that for nothing?

We all hear you Steve, but many of your complaints will ring hollow until all the individual country's and NGO's have done ALL that they can do to rectify these issues that concern you.

Les

quote:

Originally posted by LHowell:

quote:

...If SCI were to do away with donations and merely raise the booth prices to realize the same income, how many outfitters would even be able to attend, it is obviously cheaper for them to offer the hunts to auction than pay the [already in place alternative ] $$$ price.

...without that donation income, there would be no SCI, and there would be none of the service they provide, [even if you do not approve of whatever they provide, these services are more than nothing!]

Steve,

While I am happy that you still like me and I still like you...you missed or ignored the above central point.

Without the donations to be auctioned the booth rent would be very much higher. SCI takes donations in lieu of higher rents, and it obviously makes sense for all those that donate to do it that way - they all have the option of paying additional dolars if they choose.

SCI needs to generate "X" number of dollars to operate. It must come from somewhere. if they do not make "X" from the convention, then their mission will be diminished. If they make nothing from the show [no donations and not higher rents as you seem to suggest] there would be no SCI and there would be no convention. Why would they bother? Who would do all that for nothing?

We all hear you Steve, but many of your complaints will ring hollow until all the individual country's and NGO's have done ALL that they can do to rectify these issues that concern you.

Les

Les,

From what I can understand, they don't appear to publish how much money they make from donations nor what they spend or what they spend it on so it's difficult to answer that question accurately.... which is one of the reasons why I didn't address that particular issue.

The other reason I didn't reply to that point is that we were talking about a possible new non SCI show and I saw no point raising temperatures by having it turn into yet another pro/con SCI debate.

However, I fail to see that the price of a booth in even the best location could justify what some of the big players donate.

I don't know what the value of the most expensive donation was last year but I'd bet it a helluva lot. If anyone knows, I'd be interested to hear?

I'd also be interested in hearing/reading an explanation of why SCI have failed to address/tackle the issue of USF&WS persistant refusal to allow Moz elephant imports despite the country having a perfectly legitimate CITES quota and a management plan that is as good if not better than some other neighbouring countries?