quote:

Originally posted by JudgeG:
The proper way to go looking for a wounded buffalo: Taking the Dangerous out of DG

JudgeG,

What is the going price on those bad boys? Are they "legal" in Zim?

QUICK! Somebody invoke Elmer Kieth and settle this issue for all eternity

funny you'd invoke EMK. I took my wife shopping at the Boise Cabela's where all of his double rifles and other firearms are on display. Thirty-plus years ago I had the privilege of shooting most of them at his gunsmith Don Mijalevic's (Mi-hail-O-vic's) range. We stood and watched the diorama and looked at his big bore collection. My kind of man. He dealt with a lot of personal tragedy in his life, being burned so badly as a child, and then having his only daughter catch her scarf in the spoked wheel, of their car and getting her neck broken and killed. He and Miss Lorraine were tough. You had to be to survive in those days.

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
A buff with a 500J would be cool in my book.

Just going Cape Buffalo hunting is wonderful.

Rich

Agreed!

All you guys who got your bowels in an uproar sure made me laugh. Rich likes arguement. He can take either side. Recently on another thread, I stated, in my opinion, the 45/70 isn't a DG cartridge. Rich proceeded to list all the one shot kills on buff that the round had to it's credit. Rich, I like your crusty soul.

thank you. I'd prefer a spirited discussion, but...

Rich

Well,
I finally read the article by Ganyana and found it rather disturbing.
Ganyana seems confused.

Rich has real combat experience, with the most dangerous of game, maybe more than Ganyana
... unless you count shots to departing buffalo derrieres with a .308 as combat,
ISS has at least equal credentials in true life and death situations.

This was no mere little peccadillo of for ISS.
Shot placement?
Of course! Everyone agrees with that.

Ganyana can't manage it with something bigger than a 9.3x62?
He touts a diabolically poorly designed cartridge like the 500 Jeffery,
but admits he can't handle it well enough for field use?

I'm going to look up "ganyana."
Maybe it is Swahili for "little peccadillo?"

ISS wins.

DRG says: "Kiss my liberal grits!"

quote:

Rich has real combat experience, with the most dangerous of game, maybe more than Ganyana

"equal credentials in true life and death situations"
Hmmm, I though this was the African Hunting Forum and the question was whether or not the 9.3x62 was adequate for Cape Buffalo. My sincere apologies....
Oh as Ganyana would say: "What a wanker!".
Peter.

Survival philosophy is applicable whatever the game.

Ganyana is a town in Zimbabwe.
Not Swahili.
Still working on the translation ...



wait for it ...
various:
"Gay Olde Town"
or
"Jackal Town."

And here is a gay blade:



Wank, wank, wank ...

DRG says: "Kiss my liberal grits!"

quote:

Originally posted by JudgeG:
We have been very fortunate at the AR parties at DSC in the past that every single attendee has been a lady or gentleman (at least as to getting into public fusses).

I would hopefully expect that to continue regardless as to bizzarenss of internet behaviors.

In other words, face to face, the ones that show up actually get along with each other.

Let's continue that.

With all due deference and respect to m dear friend Ernest; "you can't unring a bell" and there are some individuals-past and present- on this Forum that it would be best if we never met.

All that aside, if Ganyana says it works, it's good enough for me. jorge

I am with Jorge. I prefer the experience demonstrated by Ganyana.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Survival philosophy is applicable whatever the game.

Ganyana is a town in Zimbabwe.
Not Swahili.
Still working on the translation ...



wait for it ...
various:
"Gay Olde Town"
or
"Jackal Town."

And here is a gay blade:



Wank, wank, wank ...

DRG says: "Kiss my liberal grits!"

your first sentence is one of the dumbest statements i have seen in a while. to equate armed combat with DG hunting diminishes both of them and neither is a game. apples and oranges are both fruit but they are NOT the same.

j$,
The "game" referred to was in the sense of "quarry."
But by your concept of "game" as in "pleasurable diversion,"
only "DG" hunting qualifies, for diminishment.
It is a mere luxury, a game for wankers, according to the name caller.

Please show some respect for the buffalo and recommend something bigger than the 9.3x62.

DRG says: "Kiss my liberal grits!"

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Rich,

"Buzz shoots a big double?" Really? I'm not a collector of hunting videos but in the two videos I have of Buzz doing his thing he is shooting I believe a Ruger in 416 Rigby. Perhaps he has purchased a double recently? I beg to differ about how many expereinced PH's shoot doubles. I've hunted with three PH's so far that used them. In two of the three cases the rifles were gifts. PH's as a rule cannot afford to buy or shoot a big double. What you like to shoot and how much you shoot it has no bearing on what is reality for a PH who has to buy his ammo OTC. It's like comparing apples to oranges. Priced a box of 500's lately? A guy making $100-$200 a day cannot afford such an inpractical luxury.

I'm not one of the 9.3 wonder caliber club but I am completely convinced that as a client you do not NEED a genuine big bore to kill buffalo with. If a big boomer floats your boat that's fine but trying to say or at least imply that anything other than a big bore is inadequate is pure bunk.

Mark

Well said MArk

quote:

Originally posted by infinito:

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Rich,

"Buzz shoots a big double?" Really? I'm not a collector of hunting videos but in the two videos I have of Buzz doing his thing he is shooting I believe a Ruger in 416 Rigby. Perhaps he has purchased a double recently? I beg to differ about how many expereinced PH's shoot doubles. I've hunted with three PH's so far that used them. In two of the three cases the rifles were gifts. PH's as a rule cannot afford to buy or shoot a big double. What you like to shoot and how much you shoot it has no bearing on what is reality for a PH who has to buy his ammo OTC. It's like comparing apples to oranges. Priced a box of 500's lately? A guy making $100-$200 a day cannot afford such an inpractical luxury.

I'm not one of the 9.3 wonder caliber club but I am completely convinced that as a client you do not NEED a genuine big bore to kill buffalo with. If a big boomer floats your boat that's fine but trying to say or at least imply that anything other than a big bore is inadequate is pure bunk.

Mark

Well said MArk

+1

That's just crazy talk considering the tens (or more likely hundreds) of thousands of buffalo that have died to .303s, .318s, .350s, 9.3mms, and .375s.

Brett

Posted Nov 9, 2:19 PM
Here's the deal. You have just been given a free two week safari to hunt Cape Buffalo.

Results (122 votes counted so far):
Which of the two rifle packages do you want?
Defend your choice.
Rich

45 (37%) A. you and your PH are packing 9,3x62's
77 (63%) B. you are packing a 416 Rigby and the PH has a 500 3"NE double

*************************************************************
Most who chose to vote showed some respect for the cape buffalo.
*************************************************************


DRG says: "Kiss my liberal grits!"

I still believe that when you choose a rifle for hunting dangerous game; that you do not make that choice based on the best case scenario, but the worst. I grew up on a farm, and we butchered three or four beef cattle every Thanksgiving week. My Father did the shooting until I could talk him into letting me do it. From 4-6 feet away a 22lr solid in the forehead did the trick. That proves a 22lr solid was suitable for the job; and interpolation takes us to the idea that at the same distance that round is a Cape Buffalo killer. Ludicrous, eh?
I shot my buff with a 500gr Swift A-frame. I still "paid the insurance". Twice. I have no desire to compare Buffalo horn scars with anyone.
Respect for the game is the answer here...


Rich

Rich,
Remember that Ganyana wrote that article for mass consumption. Meaning many of the readers have little experience with any caliber larger than a 30-06. Most hunters contemplating their first African safari simply can not handle the recoil of something like your 550 Magnum. They don't have the experience nor the desire to buy and learn to shoot the cannons that you recommend. I don't think I can and I have shot a couple of dozen buffalo and almost that many elephants. The 458 Lott is at the upper limit of what I can handle efficiently and accurately. I have used the 465, 470, 458 win and 458 Lott for my DG hunting and my PHs have told me I can handle much bigger calibers than most clients. Clients using too big of a gun is one of the primary reasons for wounded and lost DG. Since you weigh almost twice what I do, that may be the reason you can handle more recoil than me. Saying that I think a client should use the biggest caliber he or she can handle efficiently and accurately. If that is a 9.3 then so be it. Two weeks ago a PH at the Segwa Research Area was pounded by a cow buff with a leg snare that charged from close range. He failed to stop it with two shots from his 500 double. He didn't need a bigger gun. He needed to place his bullets better.

465H&H

*************************************************************
Most who chose to vote showed some respect for the cape buffalo.
*************************************************************

All well and good if one can handle the weapon. If you paste him in the arse however...different story...

Jeff
DRG says: "Kiss my liberal grits!" [/QUOTE]

every ph I have ever asked about rifles and calibers answered the same way "whatever one you shoot the best"

I thought Ganyana was Ndebele for wild or painted dog. As for the original option question, I also think Mark H. Young was also spot on and I would be very happy to hunt a buffalo with a 9.3, especially if it was relatively light rifle and had something like a Leupold 1.5-5X scope on it. I would prefer my PH to have a much heavier rifle, but I would rate his experience and what he was comfortable with rather than just the calibre of the rifle he was carrying alone.

The 9.3 has proven itelf to be adequate and is legal in Zim/Moz and with good bullets and good shot-placement you will have a dead buff end of story. It is not the best DG calibre, but accuracy and shooting ability are much more important in general hunting than calibre. If you have the shooting skills and knowlege of buff anatomy with an accurate scoped rifle with shooting sticks within 30-70m (prob the average hunting distance in Zim/Moz) you should even be able to take CNS shots if you are comfortable with the shot and situation if you are confident and practised enough. If you have mastered shooting a heavier calibre with good consistent accuracy then happy days, but one should never underestimate the importance of accuracy and shooting form as these are probably far more important than calibre in most situations. Just look at Saeed and his videos of his .375/404, notice how with many of the buff he shoots the majority simply drop right there...job done, but then that is due to excellent shooting and good animal anatomy knowlege!

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Rich,
remember that Ganyana wrote that article for mass consumption. Meaning many of the readers have little experience with any caliber larger than a 30-06. Most hunters contemplating their first African safari simply can not handle the recoil of something like your 550 Magnum. They don't have the experience nor the desire to buy and learn to shoot the cannons that you recommend. 465H&H

The above is quite true! Just yesterday a friend and I went to a local fireing range to zero a new rifle he just mounted a scope on. I had my 470 NE double in the back of my 4X4 so after we finished with the zeroing of his scope, he wanted to shoot the 470NE so I brought it to the 50 yd range, where a few guys were playing with their "gang banger" AKs and M14 type rifles. We had to wait for a spot for on the fireing line. When I uncased the double rifle understandably it drew some interest from this crowd. I set upt eh bench where I would shoot, and sat to wait to place a target. A guy about 45 yrs old sitting beside me started asking questions about the double and I asked if he'd like to shoot it. Yes was the instant answer. I placed a couple rounds in the chambers, giving him the normal warnings about the recoil, and how to work the back trigger first so he wouldn't get a double discharge by hitting the back trigger after fireing the front trigger. He listened to my warnings about hugging the rifle tight against his shoulder.
When he fired the rifle I have never seen a more strickened look on a man's face, and I thought he was going to drop the rifle, but he didn't. He also declined the second shot. He stated that the largest chambering he had shot was a .308 Win.
IMO, folks who suddenly decide to go to Africa, or decide they want a big bore or double rifle tend to buy one that is far larger than they can handle. Because the doubles look so much like a shotgun, the tend to think the recoil will be in that class, so the say well I want a 600NE, but some store clerk talks him down to a 470NE. This is the third mistake, but made by the clerk, not the buyer.
Even the 470NE is a BIG mistake! Because they have no experience with very heavy recoiling calibers. He buys the rifle, and the first time he goes to the range he promptly sits down at the bench, and the first shot, and even if he doesn't get a double discharge on the first shot,he has developed an instant fear of that rifle. SO because he has spent so much money on that rifle he is determined to use it in Africa. That is his second big mistake. What he should have done is bought himself a nice bolt action 375 H&H at least six months before he is to leave for his first safari, and shoot about 100 rounds through it before leaving. Then he can experience his safari rightly and if he wants move to a double or a larger chambering later if that is what he wants. This would also make the PH a happy camper!
....................................

What Mac said.
I took my first Buffalo with a 375, for my second I worked my way up to a 404J. Even though I have a 458, a 470 NE, a 416 Rigby and a 416 Rem, I'm not sure that I won't top out at the 404j. I'm not going to face a buffalo or elephant with a gun I'm afraid to shoot.
Start with a 9.3 or a 375 and work your way up. If your not comfortable with something bigger than a 375, than stick with that.

Just my 2 cents, worth what you paid for it.

not to stir the pot, but for those who posted that Ganyana uses a 500/416 when guiding clients, according to his post on a thread in the double rifle forum, he swapped that rifle for a 375fl. I don't know what he uses to back up clients now but appearantly it isn't the 500/416 anymore.
That is unless he had two.

I have only once ever carried the double when guiding a client. Normally it lives in the truck for just in case. Before I got the .416 I had a .458 Lott and prior to that a .404.

Since 1986 I have shot only one animal with something bigger than my 9,3. A hippo in a field one night I shot with the .458 Lott

As of Yesterday I no longer have the 500/416 having swapped it for a .375 FL (still a Krieghoff). I prefer the balance of the .375 and might be more inclined to carry it. In fact the intention IS to carry it in any area where I am not likely to encounter armed poachers (then I want the large mag on the 9,3!!)

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
I have only once ever carried the double when guiding a client. Normally it lives in the truck for just in case. Before I got the .416 I had a .458 Lott and prior to that a .404.

Since 1986 I have shot only one animal with something bigger than my 9,3. A hippo in a field one night I shot with the .458 Lott

As of Yesterday I no longer have the 500/416 having swapped it for a .375 FL (still a Krieghoff). I prefer the balance of the .375 and might be more inclined to carry it. In fact the intention IS to carry it in any area where I am not likely to encounter armed poachers (then I want the large mag on the 9,3!!)

+1

Ganyana as myself use to instructs many men ,civilians,cops and soldiers ,so he recommends a rifle easy to shoot for most of the shooters.
I operate a small hunting business and shooting training here and i can see that very few people knows how to shoot heavy rifles.Indeed i see many more hunters interested in nature -its good but...-than in guns and shooting.I believe a course at GUNSITE or with GANYANA or similar its recommended for responsible hunters.
Here i conduct a practical shooting course with hogs ,cebues and water buffalos .
Recently in POLAND with GANYANA we killed hundreds of boars stags and roe bucks with his 9,3x62 testing NORMA AMMO .It was a really good training ...Juan

We have learned something on this thread.

"Ganyana" means "wild dog" in Ndebele.

That place in Zimbabwe is not a town. It is a hill. A little kopje named "Ganyana Hill."

Someone must have found their thrill on Ganyana Hill ...

DRG says: "Kiss my liberal grits."

I think Juanpozzi hit on a truth here.

Isn't Ganyana working for Norma now?

Doesn't NORMA manufacture a substantial portion of the internationally available 9.3 ammo?

Any of you all surprised that a employee shills his employer's goods?

I will admit a 9.3/.375 is all the more a client needs for Buffalo if you use good ammo and you are a reasonable shot, assuming its legal.

If you are a good shot, a 7mm or a 7.62x39 will kill them, but its not a charge stopper so IMHO its not a good idea for a PH to be armed with anything that will not reach the CNS from any angle, but that was not the point of the article.

Lots of us like to buy big rifles and use them as intended on African dangerous game. If I went over there and my .416 or .470 or .375 did not arrive when I did, I sure as heck would not sit in the tent if the only choice was a 9.3 camp rifle.

quote:

Doesn't NORMA manufacture a substantial portion of the internationally available 9.3 ammo?

Any of you all surprised that a employee shills his employer's goods?.

Norma has never (to my knoweldge) loaded 9,3x62 (or 74) for that matter with bullets suitable for elephant hippo or buff.

Also...as pointed out by someone in an earlier post, I use Woodleigh Solids for elephants, Stuart softs for buff and speer 270grn for most plainsgame and practice. The Norma Oryx load is great for lion and adequate for eland. I have always tried to get Norma brass for my 9,3 because... RWS brass didn't fit in a standard US shell holder (the rim was made to original specs)- these days RWS have changed teir brass to fit but the stuff we were issued for the buffalo culls was effectively single use only stuff- it might as well have been berdan primed. The other two makes of brass redily available (S&B and PMP) have a significantly shorter case life and less powder capacity.
I love it when people add 1+1 and come up with 3

And yes..Norma make both .375 FL and 500/416, but I have never used it (yet). My hunting ammo or the 500/416 came from Superior...

unfortunatly norma dosen't load 9,3x62 with 320 gr wl solid like they do in 375 PH line i would love to see them do so. somebody should tell them to load 9,3 with wl 320 solid too. norma like other scandinivian ammo makers lapua and sako is known for very high quality ammo and it is not because i am living in sweden . sometime telling the reality would be understood look like being biased

Ganyana

I guess I'm confused.

According to their web site they load a Swift A frame, and a 325 gr Vulkan (which looks like it has a pretty heavy jacket).

I assumed that they were suitable as softs for buffalo. The solids may have to be a different company's load, but most clients only shoot softs except for elephant anyhow.

If you are trying to say that these are not suitable for buffalo, then to me you have contradicted your argument in the article.

I thought the issue was buffalo, not elephant or hippo.

My experience with hippo hunting as a client, I would have no problem shooting a 9.3 (but this is not dry land shooting either- I doubt the majority of client shot hippo are on land either, for that matter.

Again, for a client, shooting a 9.3 is certainly acceptable. Ideal?, well that's an individual choice, no? Looking at numbers alone, a .338 Win Mag would seem adequate; heck, Barrie Duckworth told me that the .338 works fine, its just not legal in Zim.

Well, now that Ganyana is working for Norma, maybe they WILL start loading Woodleigh 286gr Softs and Solids in the 9,3x74, and the 9,3x62.

crbutler, yes you are confused! If you had bothered reading the original thread where Idaho started yapping at Ganyana's heels, you would have seen that I posted a question about the bullets used. here is the answer:



Posted 09 November 2009 19:37 Hide Post

quote:
It appears to me in rereading it that Ganyana says a good vital or CNS shot with a 9.3X 62 is better than a poor shot with a larger caliber. He also says soft points of today are better than softpoints of yesteryear and that if you want to use solids he suggests over 40 caliber.



Good advice from a man (Ganyana) that has shot enough buffalo to talk from practical experience. The quality of the bullet is certainly a primary consideration, as in the end it is the bullet that is doing the killing. Thus frangible Softs is out of the question. Ganyana is using premium Softs, and have stated numerous times that he is using Ken Stewart's Hi-Performer - a thick jacket core bonded bullet. This bullet is tough and performs well by holding together and does not over-expand, but expands in a controlled way to a sufficiently large diameter (2.0 to 2.2 times original diameter in my wetpack tests) to create a wound channel that is bigger than a .510 non expanding solid.

9.3 mm times 2.2 = 20.46 mm
.510 inches times 25.4 = 12.95 mm

Ganyana has seen many a time how long it takes for a buffalo to go down when shot with a Solid bullet. In fact he has published an article on this very issue some years back in the Man Magnum magazine.

Here is the Soft bulllet in question (Stewart Hi-Performer) that Ganyana uses:-

Sorry, it looks like the cutaway picture of the Stewart did not copy over. Softpoints are used for Buff.
Peter.

quote:

then having his only daughter catch her scarf in the spoked wheel, of their car and getting her neck broken and killed.

Wow, that sucks. She never read The Great Gatsby, I guess...

"B" Because I actually OWN a 416 Rigby



Questions?

crbutler.

The Vulcan is a quick expanding soft point- non bonded core- intended for driven pig hunts. Also uses a light bullet.

The Swift is a great bullet- unfortunately prior to this year only available in 250grn and 300grn weights. (Norma loaded the lighter one) which makes a great bear/lion, eland load but not a buff one. If they had loaded the 300grn... that would have been a different story. That said- I have never actually seen one of the 9,3 bullets loaded with the swift- presumably Norma's African Agents saw they were not suitable and didn't import them.

Yes- With Swift now offering a 'standard weight' 286grn A frame, Norma will probably replace the 250grn loading with it- or perhaps even add it to the line up.

There is a difference between 'work for' and 'consult'

The 250grn Swift 9,3 load was introduced 3 years ago and production halted after a single run pending the introduction of the 286grn Swift. With a MV of 2625fps it actually makes a nice load for all the bigger plains game and gives the 9,3 a bit more 'reach'. However, it has not proved particularly popular.

Thanks for straightening me out gents!

i am looking to try the 286 Swifts if they are designed for the 9.3. I had high hopes for the 300 Swifts but they are simply .375 bullets sized down and carry their diameter too far forward to chambe in any of my three 9.3x62's when crimped at the cannalure.