I have noticed over the past few years that animals - medium to large African plains game size - shot from a broadside angle, are mostly (would say ± 7 out of ten times) found lying dead with the exit wound on the up side.

Why?

Any logical explanation for that?

This is due to the blood flow coming out of the exit hole at a faster rate than the entrance hole. This in turn causes the animal to weigh more on the entrance side, thus the weight pulls them down to that side.

Just kidding Jagter. I have no explanation for the phenomena Interesting point however.

quote:

Originally posted by L. David Keith:
This is due to the blood flow coming out of the exit hole at a faster rate than the entrance hole.

The "Jet effect"

David

Are you sure about that? The blood weight difference would have to be fairly minimal at best. Is there a study on this you’re quoting?

It would make more sense to me, if there is a directional preference at all, if it had to due with muscle damage and the inability to function due to larger amounts of muscular damage on the exit hole side of the body. I'm not saying that's what does it (if it happens at all) it's just an idea.

It would be interesting if PHs kept a running tally for the interest of science as to the side game is found on.

Brett

Brett

Brett, as I mention at the end of my reply, I was only joking with Jagter. Thus the "just kidding" remark I have no explanation as to why his observations result in the game falling to one side or the other. We best stop discussing this or the US Government will order a Congressional study on this subject. Time will be wasted, jobs will be jeopardized, pets will be neutered, monies will be exhausted and results will be inconclusive...in other words: status quo in Washington DC

Apparently I'm blind.

I couldn't agree with you more. Luckily they're too busy spending money on baseball hearings. Thank God that's being taken care of!!

Brett

Southern hemisphere. In the northern hemisphere, they fall with entrance wound up.


Seriously, I think it is just your perception. Too many variables at work to predict what side will be up.

John Taylor also commented on the same observation. He wondered why animals almost always fall on the entrance side. I have also noticed this factoid. Why? I don't know but it may be because that is the side first hit and the muscles on that side may give out sooner than the off side.

465H&H

Someone can do a study and tell me if it actually happens before I use any brain power on this one. For now I'm going with Duckear's theory.

Brett

They fall always to one side or the other due to the hunter's imagination and too much time on their hands.

This is pretty easy....IF you think about it!

The "entrance side" happens first and causes a significant amount of discomfort. Much later, depending on the speed and penetration caracteristics of the bullet, the "exit side" happens.

Obviously by the time the "exit side" happens the pain from the "entrance side" is less and therefore the animal goes down on the least uncomfortable side.

Makes sense to me

/

I'm not really concerned what side the animal falls down on just as long as it does fall down.

ALF!

Your are definately sick!

465H&H

How amazing that all of you, with all the hunting experience you collectively have, seem to have missed why this is happening.

If you shoot an animal, broadside, on his right side, and he runs off. He will drop on the side he was shot if he turns to the right as he drops.!

If the same animals decides to turn to the left at his last gasp, he will fall on the exit side.

I would like to hear Walter's explanation of this!

Maybe it just has something to do if the animal was right or left handed like you can see on horn and tusk wear.

Or rather I should say Right hoofed or Left hoofed.

Some nice replies.

Let us just examine the facts given in the question without doing the statistics if the question is really valid: Exit wound side up. This implies there is an exit wound. Any animal that fell without the bullet passing through does not count in my reply.

Let's assume good expanding bullets were used. This is a fair assumption as we are talking about hunters and animals that fell down! The energy required to punch through the skin on entry, before the pointed bullet expansion, is much less than the energy required drilling the properly expanded bullet through the exit side skin. This is surely true as how often is an expanded bullet found just under the skin on the opposite to entry side?

Now, anyone who has ever attempted to hook a rather blunt meat hook through animal skin will know how very tough the skin is. You apply more and more pressure, the skin just stretches more and more and the blunt hook simply refuses to go through. Your blood pressure starts to rise a bit, and you apply more and more strength to the hook. No way that I can, maybe a stronger you can, get a blunt 1/4" round steel hook through a bigger animal's skin. Can you imagine how much force must be applied by the bullet that may have expanded to about 1/2" in diameter to actually penetrate the skin and exit? Can you think how far away from the animal's body the skin stretches before the bullet actually penetrates and exits? Well on exit there is nothing holding the very stretched skin away from the animal's body and it springs back with a thud! This thud as the stretched skin jumps back to it's original position is the force that knocks the - by now dead on it's feet - animal to fall with the exit side up?

If my argument holds true it should hold true more so for most animals that were "bang-flopped" without throughout penetration, as the bullet stretched the skin, but could not break through and now the stopped bullet plus stretched skin jumps back to knock the animal down with the bullet just below the skin side up?

That's my best attempt at an explanation. Sorry if it's not good enough!

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

What a lack of imagination from some folks here. Clearly, it's because of the innate balance that animals possess. Lead is heavy, y'know. Throws off the whole internal gyroscope thing.

On a slightly more serious note, in my casually thinking back to the animals I've poked hole(s) in, the answer is perfectly clear: I have no freaking idea, and care even less.

KG

Here is Walter's explanation.

He says as the bullet gets into the animal, spinning and moving so fast, heats the meat as it goes along.

The temprature of the meat close to the exit hole would be warmer than the temprature of the meat at the entrance hole - for those with no imagination, he says that side is beggining to cool down.

So heat tends to travel higher, hence the animal falls with the exit hole up.

Because the meat on that side is warmer.

Walter,

You genius that is the best logical explanation I have read in years ! It all makes perfect sense now.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Here is Walter's explanation.

He says as the bullet gets into the animal, spinning and moving so fast, heats the meat as it goes along.

The temprature of the meat close to the exit hole would be warmer than the temprature of the meat at the entrance hole - for those with no imagination, he says that side is beggining to cool down.

So heat tends to travel higher, hence the animal falls with the exit hole up.

Because the meat on that side is warmer.

Well that's it then. Can't argue with science!

Giving due consideration to the above responses and, if you employ a "texas" heart shot, would you expect to find the animal standing on its head?

Bull1

A further complication 'for the phenomena' -

Is it possible that the type of bullet used (exiting type) causes it to happen more often or that the non-exiting type of bullet doesn't cause it that often and/or not at all?

Any logical ideas?

quote:

Originally posted by Andrew McLaren:
Some nice replies.

Let us just examine the facts given in the question without doing the statistics if the question is really valid: Exit wound side up. This implies there is an exit wound. Any animal that fell without the bullet passing through does not count in my reply.

Let's assume good expanding bullets were used. This is a fair assumption as we are talking about hunters and animals that fell down! The energy required to punch through the skin on entry, before the pointed bullet expansion, is much less than the energy required drilling the properly expanded bullet through the exit side skin. This is surely true as how often is an expanded bullet found just under the skin on the opposite to entry side?

Now, anyone who has ever attempted to hook a rather blunt meat hook through animal skin will know how very tough the skin is. You apply more and more pressure, the skin just stretches more and more and the blunt hook simply refuses to go through. Your blood pressure starts to rise a bit, and you apply more and more strength to the hook. No way that I can, maybe a stronger you can, get a blunt 1/4" round steel hook through a bigger animal's skin. Can you imagine how much force must be applied by the bullet that may have expanded to about 1/2" in diameter to actually penetrate the skin and exit? Can you think how far away from the animal's body the skin stretches before the bullet actually penetrates and exits? Well on exit there is nothing holding the very stretched skin away from the animal's body and it springs back with a thud! This thud as the stretched skin jumps back to it's original position is the force that knocks the - by now dead on it's feet - animal to fall with the exit side up?

If my argument holds true it should hold true more so for most animals that were "bang-flopped" without throughout penetration, as the bullet stretched the skin, but could not break through and now the stopped bullet plus stretched skin jumps back to knock the animal down with the bullet just below the skin side up?

That's my best attempt at an explanation. Sorry if it's not good enough!

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

Andrew.... Could the "thud" we hear, be the bullet impacting the animal, or is it the skin snapping back?

The logical conclusion for further examination from this discussion is to butter the exit wound side of the animals and then see how they fall...

Kyler

I think Kyler is on to something with that.

Now I'm confused... So according to ALF, a 6 meter tall elephant should flip 3 times in midair before hitting the ground, but a 3 meter tall one would only flip twice?

quote:

Giving due consideration to the above responses and, if you employ a "texas" heart shot, would you expect to find the animal standing on its head?

Around here we refer to that as the "Oklahoma brain shot", and like our Okie friends, the downed game is usually found with its head up its ass. (My humble apologies to those on the north side of the Red, I just couldn't resist.)

Ok I have an idea:

I'm personally available to stay in Africa (obviously full and WELL paid), and to hunt 7 days a week and all the time will be possible, only to have data enough to manage a basic statistic.

I do not know how many years will be necessary to obtain the wished results (10? 20? more?), but I'll hard work to have them.

It will be necessary take photos and prepare a registration sheets where all the info will be inserted.

And now, please, be so kind to approve my proposal, don't say all together "me too, me too" only to come with me, it will be a serious research, a hard work for the science.
Seriously

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Malinverni:
Ok I have an idea:

I'm personally available to stay in Africa (obviously full and WELL paid), and to hunt 7 days a week and all the time will be possible, only to have data enough to manage a basic statistic.


I do not know how many years will be necessary to obtain the wished results (10? 20? more?), but I'll hard work to have them.

It will be necessary take photos and prepare a registration sheets where all the info will be inserted.

And now, please, be so kind to approve my proposal, don't say all together "me too, me too" only to come with me, it will be a serious research, a hard work for the science.
Seriously

Steve,

It isn't necessary as I have already done it and have the data in hand. Send enough $$ for a PAC bull hunt and I will release the data to you.

465H&H

no research is necessary unless I get to do it!

Here is the upshot to this interesting meaningless observation:

the animal, when shot, will always land on the opposite side than ends up------end of story

or rather:

the side that ends up, will always be the opposite side that it lands on.

Could it be that the animal naturally favors the exit side (due to most recent and severe trauma) and elects to fall to the opposite side?

Or, could it be that animals fall at random and the hypothesis is flawed? That one gets my vote.

Kind of on the subject still; since ALF brought up the buttered toast. Since cats always land on their feet, what happens when you tie a piece of toast butter side up on the back of a cat, and then you drop the cat?

From a professorial point of view, it depends upon whether the subject container, regardless of fluid, is half full or half empty.

I think a key part of the grant should be buttering the 'buff before shooting it... I would feel that such a study would be worthy of my tax dollars...

I have no idea why, though -- it wouldn't be too hard to arrange, if everyone on here started keeping track -- maybe someone could post a poll...

Aglifter wrote:

quote:

I have no idea why, though -- it wouldn't be too hard to arrange, if everyone on here started keeping track --

Now we are getting somewhere!

Since no one here, except perhaps Andrew's 'thud' theory, could give the faintest logical answer, it would be nice if everyone on AR from now on could keep track and record of all their hunts on the following:
1. Exit side up; or
2. Exit side down;
3. Bullet exited; or
4. Bullet did not exit.

All this on broadsided shot game only.

Let's say in 6 months time we all again report back on this thread.

It's an easy one, not much of a technical challenge, but perhaps a challenge to increase your observation abilities out there in the hunting place where it really matters!

quote:

Originally posted by Jagter:
I have noticed over the past few years that animals - medium to large African plains game size - shot from a broadside angle, are mostly (would say ± 7 out of ten times) found lying dead with the exit wound on the up side.

Why?

Any logical explanation for that?

It is so obvious!
It’s just a question of balance!
Seven out of ten times the bullet does exit, and because the exit side has suffered a greater meat loss the animal will drop with the heavier entrance side down. The three times the bullet doesn’t exit, the animal will be pulled down by bullet weight and thus with entrance side up!
As simple as that!
Not true if you use a 45/70. As it is known as not having enough penetration, the animal will always drop entrance down!

B.Martins

Some more brilliant responses. The lack of serious comment on my "skin streach and snap-back" theory made me realize that something may be amiss.

If, and only if, there really is any truth in the reported observation that animals with a broadside bangflop shot fall with exit side up, then there MUST be an explanation for the phenomenon. I have proposed one “explanationâ€. Here is another one for consideration and comment.

First some background: We have all debated what is a “banflopâ€, and we all know that it is a shot where an animal dies in it’s tracks. What is required to get the “bangflopâ€? A fast enough expanding bullet of adequate caliber seems to be required to get a true bangflop to happen. IMHO a bangflop is more likely if a bullet with easily disintegrating front section, i.e. old Nostler Partitions and H-mantle are used. What causes the “instantaneous†death of the animal shot broadside through the lungs with such a bullet? All of us know that an animal shot through the lungs with a slower 500 grain .45 will still run something like 100 or more yards before collapsing. How can a fast 80 grain Nostler Partition in .243 caliber bullet entering at the same spot cause “instant death†or a bangflop? I believe that the pain and nerve stimuli caused by the disintegration of the front section to result in a large number of very small fragments of bullet and lead to blast through the lungs simply “overloads†the central nervous system and the animal dies as a bangfolp. But the shock wave of the bullet entering the animal also cause trauma and nerve stimulation. The shockwave starts at the entry side and propagates in concentric circles from the entry point, and along the bullet path. So the nerves on the entry side are stimulated - or rather over stimulated – first, before the nerves on the exit side. This death has absolutely nothing to do with lack of oxygen to the brain as a result of internal bleeding into the lungs. It is an stimuli overload that causes death. The animal dies from over stimulation of the CNS. Now upon the instant death the disrupted nerves allows the muscles on the entry side to collapse first, at a time when the legs on the bullet exit side is still standing upright. The very small time differential is all that is required to let the legs on the bullet entry side to collapse before the legs on the bullet exit side. This results in the animal falling with the exit side up.

What value does this possible explanation have?

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

The phenomena is simply explained by the graivitational pull between the hunter's fat ass and the animal. The closer the hunter is at the shot the more likely the animal will fall onto its wounded side. It is a distance affect.

As the hunter approaches the hunter is leaning toward the animal (just look at all the hunting photos). This due to the graivtational pull between the hunter and the animal.

What is missed is the animal is also leaning toward the hunter from the equal but opposite pull. When the aninal is shot it takes off and the gravitational pull decreases. You can see this in the videos as the hunter is now standing upright.

The animal now experiences the same decrease in gravitational pull, and as it tries to escape it over compensates and looses it balance, the sudden decrease in graviational pull tipping the animal toward the opposite side, and hence winds up on the ground with its wounded side up.

Therefore it is a false premise that the animal falls on the wound side. Just the opposite is true.