We all don't like poachers. What would you do to help your families?

22 June 2010, 04:55

white north

When I went on my hunt in Africa, my tracker told me he once was a poacher. He said he needed the money to support his family. How far would you go if you had hungry kids to feed? Are most poachers like the above tracker? or is most of it organized,by pros?

White north

22 June 2010, 05:01

RVL III

Poacher meaning putting meat on the table when there was no other way? OR Poacher meaning part of a organized criminal activity, killing animals for pure profit?

Meat on the table, sure.
Part of criminal activity, what other options are available. Safaris = jobs, we all know that, but where does one live, what are your options? Poaching may seem easier than honest living?

22 June 2010, 06:07

SGraves155

I would poach to feed my family.

I would hope that if the circumstances were such that my only way of getting beer money was poaching and selling bush=meat, that I would not do it.

Poaching for ivory/riches, I would hope not.

22 June 2010, 06:14

daleW

Food stamps?

22 June 2010, 06:51

JBrown

quote:
Originally posted by daleW:
Food stamps?

In Africa?

Jason

"You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core."
_______________________

Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt.

Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry
Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure.

-Jason Brown

22 June 2010, 07:16

jetdrvr

I would poach to feed my family.

I would not poach for profit.

22 June 2010, 08:20

Mike Smith

First I despise commercial poaching. I understand poaching for survival. It isnt quite as black and white as some would think. First it is one thing to poach to put food in your families belly. So what about trading it for medicine or clothes or any one of many things that might be necessary. It isnt like you are doing it to get a big screen tv. blurs the lines a little dosnt it?

22 June 2010, 08:33

Michael Robinson

I think that most people would poach to feed their families.

That's why the subsistence poacher is such a sympathetic character to most of us.

Not to say it's right; but it's understandable.

Commercial poaching, on the other hand, is organized crime against the local fauna, which may be endangered - and in some cases, it's organized crime against the entire ecosystem.

I have no sympathy for that.

22 June 2010, 08:53

RyanB

I would do anything for my family. ANYTHING.

22 June 2010, 10:19

Ganyana

Probably 90% of the poachers and support staff killed by us during the 'rhino war' (1988-1994) were refugees from the congo who had been recruited in Zambia and were now trying to earn enough money to get their families out of the refugee camps. The 'boat men' who bought them acros the river were simply batonka tribesmen who had been hired for the trip and had no real knowledge of what was going on but were happy for some cash income.

We only killed one 'political' and two 'professional' poachers who were not bottom feeders and were there for the money. Out of over 900 dead poachers those are not good statistics....

Oh and we lost the war anyway.

If we really wanted to save the Rhino, we needed to kill 4 indian buisnesmen in Lusaka (who were arming and funding the main poaching effort), the vice President of Zim and the director of Zim parks who were co-ordinating the poaching by the Zim army and working with the Indian's from Lusaka... that would have stopped all poaching in the North,

To stop the opoaching in the South, we needed to kill two SA military intelegence guys that were in charge of Ivory and horn collection and the US CIA man who was co-ordinating the poaching by our own parks staff.

9 dead instead of over 900....

As with drugs ..kill the boss not the footmen

22 June 2010, 17:44

Die Ou Jagter

The next time you see someone shoplifting in the grocery store just remember they are stealing only to feed their families. That will make it OK and you can appear at their hearing as a witness for the defense.

22 June 2010, 18:12

Bwana Moja

Interesting post Ganyana. To pick up on your note, I believe poaching in Africa is like cocaine trafficking in Columbia.

1) It's easy to be successful at it.
2) It's a necessity for many families.
3) It would be reduced if there were other economic opportunities.
4) Big arrests are made periodically claiming law enforcement has put a big dent in it.
5) Government officials take part in it.
6) It will never be eradicated.

22 June 2010, 20:47

JTEX

quote:
As with drugs ..kill the boss not the footmen

Yes Sir! They are nothing but cockroaches anyway.

.

22 June 2010, 22:27

DTala

I have no experience on poaching in Africa unless you count finding a lot of snares and seeing fresh footprints in the Save in 05.

But, I have 26 years experience catching poachers in Alabama as a GW. I hazzard a guess that less than 5%, maybe less than 1% of poachers have no other source of food. I caught maybe 2-3 in my 26 years and let them off with a warning. Hard to arrest a man for feeding his poor as a rat family on game killed in his garden.......

About as hard a saying the fella driving a two year old four wheel drive and shooting a $1000 rig is poaching because he has to in order to eat......

troy

22 June 2010, 22:39

ledvm

quote:
If we really wanted to save the Rhino, we needed to kill 4 indian buisnesmen in Lusaka (who were arming and funding the main poaching effort), the vice President of Zim and the director of Zim parks who were co-ordinating the poaching by the Zim army and working with the Indian's from Lusaka... that would have stopped all poaching in the North,

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22 June 2010, 22:55

jvw375

Ganyana for President!

The biggest problem in Africa these days, at leat in my humble opinion, is that most people are drowning in political correctness.

Wake up and smell the AK empties! It's killing Africa!

22 June 2010, 22:55

MacD37

quote:
Originally posted by jetdrvr:
I would poach to feed my family.

I would not poach for profit.

I would shoot animals, trap animals steal food from a store if my family was hungery, and there was no other way to feed them. That is called survival, and IMO, most poachers in Africa are food gathers to feed their families, or even their village in hard times. Those guys get my pass, as justified.

The bastards that shoot ele, and rhino for ivory, or horn, leaving the the meat in the field for the hyenas should be staked out FOR the hyenas.

22 June 2010, 23:28

jetdrvr

quote:
Originally posted by MacD37:
quote:
Originally posted by jetdrvr:
I would poach to feed my family.

I would not poach for profit.

I would shoot animals, trap animals steal food from a store if my family was hungery, and there was no other way to feed them. That is called survival, and IMO, most poachers in Africa are food gathers to feed their families, or even their village in hard times. Those guys get my pass, as justified.

The bastards that shoot ele, and rhino for ivory, or horn, leaving the the meat in the field for the hyenas should be staked out FOR the hyenas.

Well said.

23 June 2010, 00:38

Equinsu Ocha

quote:
Originally posted by RyanB:
I would do anything for my family. ANYTHING.

23 June 2010, 01:11

KPete

It's interesting that many in our community herald notorious poachers like Pondoro Taylor and Ian Nyschens, among others. Most often European (and white), these poachers were seen as 'anachronistic', 'romantic' and 'colorful', with books describing their exploits being among the best-sellers in hunting lore. Yet some of these same persons vilify native Africans who commit similar crimes with similar motives. I wonder why that is?

23 June 2010, 01:57

Brooks Carmichael

I can understand everyones point of view the need to feed ones family. But, in today's world at least in your modern countries thereare alternatives.

I am going one step further. What is the difference in robbing a bank, stealing from your neighbor, robbing a person and poaching. When it comes down to the nuts and bolts Poaching is nothing more then stealing. You are stealing from the person who paid for a license, paid an outfitter to legally take that animal that you have killed and he will no longer have the opportunity to take. Meat from that elephant goes to feed local people. The money from the license fees going to support Game and fish organizations. The list goes on.

I am just giving you a different point of view. Not saying I do not understand some peoples reasoning for poaching. Tho I may not agree with it.

23 June 2010, 01:57

ledvm

It is hard to be angry with someone for killing something for them to eat or feed hungry kids.

Rhino poachers and lion poisoners are what really get me.

24 June 2010, 05:39

Adrian Parham

I once asked a young game scout if he needed food for his family if he would shoot an impala or such. He, of course, said he would. Most of us here would do the same. Commercial poaching is what most would consider a real crime.

Kpete has a good point. The old double standard is alive and well.

24 June 2010, 09:29

Sevens

quote:
It's interesting that many in our community herald notorious poachers like Pondoro Taylor and Ian Nyschens, among others. Most often European (and white), these poachers were seen as 'anachronistic', 'romantic' and 'colorful', with books describing their exploits being among the best-sellers in hunting lore. Yet some of these same persons vilify native Africans who commit similar crimes with similar motives. I wonder why that is?

I was thinking the same thing. I could of sworn I read about Pondoro saying he got a license in one country for 5 elephant and would poach the rest in the neighboring countries.

My grandfather used to poach birds with a .22 when he was a boy to help feed his family, I'd imagine I would do the same.

24 June 2010, 10:26

BrettAKSCI

quote:
Originally posted by SableTrail:
Interesting post Ganyana. To pick up on your note, I believe poaching in Africa is like cocaine trafficking in Columbia.

1) It's easy to be successful at it.
2) It's a necessity for many families.
3) It would be reduced if there were other economic opportunities.
4) Big arrests are made periodically claiming law enforcement has put a big dent in it.
5) Government officials take part in it.
6) It will never be eradicated.

Good post Marc. Until they have economic alternatives not much is going to change.

Brett

DRSS
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24 June 2010, 10:31

BrettAKSCI

quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
Rhino poachers and lion poisoners are what really get me.

Rhino and elephant are one thing, but lion poisoning is a whole other issue. How do you discourage people from taking care of problem animals when they directly affect their financial situation. They need to see some sort of economic benefit or have a more diverse economic structure (read not livestock based).

Brett

24 June 2010, 10:41

RyanB

quote:
Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
The next time you see someone shoplifting in the grocery store just remember they are stealing only to feed their families. That will make it OK and you can appear at their hearing as a witness for the defense.

Separate the moral and the legal. It really brings things into perspective.

24 June 2010, 11:32

Otjandaue Hunting Safaris

My Ranch is 20km from Omaruru in Namibia, here they don't poach for there families, it's a big money making scheme. They will come into your propperty and put out fourty snares at a time and start with the killing spree. They caught an estimated 18 Oryx on my propperty while I was busy hunting,fortunately for me I was avoiding my Leopard baits and drove along my fence when I spotted a Oryx leg lying in the road. The poachers dropped a leg and I asked my workers to check the next day while I hunted, that's when we found the slaying, they stayed about a mile from my fence into the neighbour propperty and came into my propperty for the poaching. It was about 7 miles from the fence from the road which I never suspected that they would go in that far into my propperty. At the end of the day I suspected my workers because they knew exactly where my waterhole were and I got rid of all of them, I only use bushmen from the north of the country now and I walk a lot to check for snares and they patrol my ranch with horses so it's been quiet now. You sometimes spend more time looking for poachers then you have time to do your ranching activities.

I can tell you guys it's not a pretty sight snaring animals and they waist a lot of meat which they can't carry. In our country it's very seldom that it is of stardom, the black market for meat is huge.

24 June 2010, 16:11

Die Ou Jagter

When I was about 6 yrs old I contracted Scarlet Fever and my whole family were in quartine. My father was a butcher at the time and of course could not work. It was in the fall of the year and he hunted for our meat, ie pheasant, squirel, rabbit etc.. We survived but never once did he kill more than the legal limit.

25 June 2010, 02:19

Idaho Sharpshooter

poachers for profit rank just above drug dealers in my book.

Rich
DRSS

25 June 2010, 03:47

larryshores

Maybe they should ask Obama for a bailout or a stimulus.

25 June 2010, 05:03

Joe-S

the only way to get rid of poacheing for profit is to get rid of the demand but I think we will never achive that.
Even a chance of being shot and killed does not seem to deterr the poachers
Joe

25 June 2010, 05:45

RBHunt

quote:
Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
The next time you see someone shoplifting in the grocery store just remember they are stealing only to feed their families. That will make it OK and you can appear at their hearing as a witness for the defense.

When someone breaks the law in order to feed themselves, they should be aware of the consequences if they get caught. If you are hungry, is it OK to kill the family next door and take their food? I don't like to see anyone go hungry, and I always give some of the meat away when I hunt. I have seen poacher's camps in the bush, and the snares they leave, often not returning, and leaving animals in snares to die a slow death.

25 June 2010, 07:17

SGraves155

Many of the most primitive poachers grow up in small villages, are un-educated, and have no idea of what game-laws are for or about.
They are likely far better hunters than we are.
They may individually be a "better" person than many a Sportsman.
If we have decided that wild-game must be conserved, and that only legalized hunting can be allowed, and that we shall kill or imprison the resident primitive-culture-folks who are only trying to survive by the taking of game on the land that they were born on, and that their deaths are therfore morally "justified", we are then no better than murderers who kill other men to take what we desire/covet for our pleasure or to keep others from having it.

I am not talking about organized poaching for profit.

25 June 2010, 14:06

ghundwan

This is what is been justified on this thread?

Make your own decision.

Poaching with snares in completely indiscriminate, what ever gets caught in the snare dies. More often than not the poachers don't even check the snares and the animals are left to rot.

Poaching has got NO place and can not be justified.

I worked in an anti poaching unit for a long time - saw the most horrific acts - arrested poaches killing roan and sable on a breeding farm. They got R100 (US$13) fine.

However they ALL had money to pay the fine / bail but not to feed their families - make you think.

25 June 2010, 16:37

SGraves155

Snares are usually slow ways to die. Without a rifle, and in areas where-- if spotted-- the hunter is killed, the snares are sometimes the only way to acquire protein.
Of course veal, cabrito, and Kosher meats all have their horrors also. Ever seen a truck-load of pigs sent to the abbatoir? They know what's up. They can smell the death smell.

Man needs protein to live. If we are failing to provide protein more effectively to the people in the bush than the village poachers, then primitive snaring will continue.

Killing people you don't know, who are not a direct threat to your life, is one definition of murder.

The professional poachers, in trucks, shooting tons of bushmeat at night with lights need to be shot. They are, however, frequently better armed than the gamescouts/PH's.

25 June 2010, 17:12

zhaba

Very simple!!! lets take Zim as an example. Get someone like Ian Smith back in charge of the country as i am told and can read eveyone had a roof over there head,a job,money in their pocket,food in their belly and an export market that exported more cattle/beef to europe than south america does to the USA!!!!!!!What have they got thank to Bod and his fools???? JACK SHIT!

25 June 2010, 17:29

ghundwan

quote:
Originally posted by zhaba:
Very simple!!! lets take Zim as an example. Get someone like Ian Smith back in charge of the country as i am told and can read eveyone had a roof over there head,a job,money in their pocket,food in their belly and an export market that exported more cattle/beef to europe than south america does to the USA!!!!!!!What have they got thank to Bod and his fools???? JACK SHIT!

Well said

25 June 2010, 17:30

brevex

Hunting to feed the family may be a moral obligation. Hunting wild game for commercial gain is a legal matter. Indiscriminate snaring, creating commercial gain while damaging the longevity of the herd and making it dangerous to walk the forest due to injured buffalo/cats/eles is clearly illegal and immoral. Paraphasing Sutton, follow the money. Disrupt theorganization while providing alternatives for the people on the ground. Offer an economic incentive for better behavior and people will follow.

25 June 2010, 18:51

Bwana Moja

quote:
Very simple!!! lets take Zim as an example. Get someone like Ian Smith back in charge of the country as i am told and can read eveyone had a roof over there head,a job,money in their pocket,food in their belly and an export market that exported more cattle/beef to europe than south america does to the USA!!!!!!!What have they got thank to Bod and his fools???? JACK SHIT!

Can someone interpret that for me? I'd like to try to understand this gentleman's point of view.