Hi Guys
We need to raise $1.6 per year to fund the rent on the concession.

Say......

1. Benevolent donations some memebers are more able to contibute than others.

2. Float a company and offer 1.6 million shares @ $1 per year each. New concept here as instead of recievivg dividends you pay dividends back to the company.

3.Establish a quota for the animals to be hunted actioned off to the highest bidder with some animals set aside to be raffled or won in competitions to alllow access to the common man.

4.Sell videos of Hunts.

5.Offer select animals to non hunting conservations to pay for them not to be hunted.

6.Advertising on AR web site.

7..............?

Regards
Deafdog

yes lets do it!

I'm interested

I'm in.

Cheers,
Andy

Not to piss on your parade guys, but I reckon you might possibly need a bit of a reality check on the practicalities of the safari industry and safari life. Before you're ready to go hunting, you'll need at least the following - and probably a whole lot more..... You will need:

To hire someone (probably more than one person) to negotiate with the Government and local game dept and check out the legalities etc and act as your agent throughout the season for purposes of meet and greet, firearms import/export & licence purchase etc.

To buy 2 at the very least, 3 if possible, hunting trucks, plus a standby truck and then equip them. That's close to US$100K each.

Then you need the finances to maintain and run them. - That can't be done on the cheap.

Another, larger supply vehicle. - Also needs to be equipped, maintained and fuelled etc.

Then you need to hire reliable local staff, not only to run the camp, but also build roads, airstrip and conduct what I would guess would need to be fairly large scale anti poaching and security operations. - These staff will need to be equipped with tools and accommodation and you have to feed them and keep them healthy.

Then you need to finance and equip the camp with tents, beds, tables, chairs, linen, cutlery, cooking utensils, generators, fuel, supplies, booze, pumps, bathrooms etc etc.

Then you need to hire, accommodate and pay a team of reliable, qualified, supervisory staff & Professional Hunters etc who will run everything. That same group will also have to maintain good relations with local government, game dept and local residents.

Then you have to work out exactly what quota and export/import permits will be issued and what can and cannot be hunted. - Won't be easy in that country. Then you actually have to get that quota & paperwork in a timely fashion.

Then you have to sort out your own dip, pack (including building of crates etc ) and export arrangements.

Then you have to work out who's gonna get to hunt at all, and for what, and then you have to work out who's gonna get peak season and who isn't, and explain why, then you have to find a way to tell the majority of guys that although they've paid, they won't get to hunt that year.

Lets say the hunting season runs for 6 months of the year. That's 24 weeks. Then lets say those 3 hunting vehicles run every single day of the season with 2 hunters and a PH on them and hunts are of 7 days duration each. Thats a total of 144 hunters a season. - Almost certainly far more than you'd have quota for in any one year. It also means that 2856 forum members wouldn't get a chance to hunt at all.

In reality, you'd need to calculate how many hunters could be put through the area during a season and then divide the costs between that number. If every forum member contributed, it'd take over 20 years for everone to get one hunt.

And that ladies and gentlemen, is why the cost of an African hunting safari is so damn expensive!

And I haven't even mentioned the cost of comms. You'd need radios for vehicles, camp and handhelds, plus a repeater, plus sat phones plus running costs......

Other than that, it'd be a doddle!

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Not to piss on your parade guys, but I reckon you might possibly need a bit of a reality check on the practicalities of the safari industry and safari life. Before you're ready to go hunting, you'll need at least the following - and probably a whole lot more..... You will need:

To hire someone (probably more than one person) to negotiate with the Government and local game dept and check out the legalities etc and act as your agent throughout the season for purposes of meet and greet, firearms import/export & licence purchase etc.

To buy 2 at the very least, 3 if possible, hunting trucks and then equip them. That's close to US$100K each.

Then you need the finances to maintain and run them. - That can't be done on the cheap.

Another, larger supply vehicle. - Also needs to be equipped, maintained and fuelled etc.

Then you need to hire reliable local staff, not only to run the camp, but also build roads, airstrip and conduct what I would guess would need to be fairly large scale anti poaching and security operations. - These staff will need to be equipped with tools and accommodation and you have to feed them and keep them healthy.

Then you need to finance and equip the camp with tents, beds, tables, chairs, linen, cutlery, cooking utensils, generators, fuel, supplies, booze, pumps, bathrooms etc etc.

Then you need to hire, accommodate and pay a team of reliable, qualified, supervisory staff & Professional Hunters etc who will run everything. That same group will also have to maintain good relations with local government, game dept and local residents.

Then you have to work out exactly what quota and export/import permits will be issued and what can and cannot be hunted. - Won't be easy in that country. Then you actually have to get that quota & paperwork in a timely fashion.

Then you have to sort out your own dip, pack (including building of crates etc ) and export arrangements.

Then you have to work out who's gonna get to hunt at all, and for what, and then you have to work out who's gonna get peak season and who isn't, and explain why, then you have to find a way to tell the majority of guys that although they've paid, they won't get to hunt that year.

Lets say the hunting season runs for 6 months of the year. That's 24 weeks. Then lets say those 3 hunting vehicles run every single day of the season with 2 hunters and a PH on them and hunts are of 7 days duration each. Thats a total of 144 hunters a season. - Almost certainly far more than you'd have quota for in any one year. It also means that 2856 forum members wouldn't get a chance to hunt at all.

In reality, you'd need to calculate how many hunters could be put through the area during a season and then divide the costs between that number. If every forum member contributed, it'd take over 20 years for everone to get one hunt.

And that ladies and gentlemen, is why the cost of an African hunting safari is so damn expensive!

Other than that, it'd be a doddle!

Steve,
Just curious... seems at a rate or $1000/day we would need 1600 day of hunting to break even. 24 weeks equal 168 days, so it would seem that 10 hunter per day would be needed to get close to $1600000/year. Seems like concessions must be going for alot less than this unless my math is way off.

Retail costs vary from area to area and country to country and depend a lot on things like government fees, quota and what you do with it etc - but believe me, no-one (who's honest) in the safari industry makes a fortune and profit margins are considerably lower than any other industry I know of. In most cases, it's more a way of life than a good living.

You've also assumed you need to reclaim all your investment in the first year. That isn't the case. In reality, your vehicles would only need changing every 3 or 4 years for example. BUT you do have to buy them in the first place.

In Tanzania for example, you can pay between about US$44K to US$70 odd K for a 21 day hunt (plus T/Fs) - anything much lower than that, and you won't be hunting a good area but the higher end doesn't mean you're getting ripped off, it means the company is doing things such as paying the trophy fees & Community Development Fees etc for the whole quota but only taking half the quota, which in turn and in time means fabulous trophy quality. Most people who book these areas are usually money rich and time poor.

Hi Shakari

Further to my answer to your post on the other thread the cost of running the concession sets the target for the funding required to finance the concession above the $1.6m needed for the lease.

It is an oportunity to explore "outside the box" solutions for generating funding for such an endeavour.

For example it may be possible to establish web based subscription sites to "sell" aspects of the concession. Live web cams centred on select old growth trees that people can subcribe to, to whatch who lives or roosts in the tree and in so doing protect the tree from logging.

The gorilla's certainly lend themselves to web cam observation that could generate substantial revenues as would other wildlife that is not desirable to hunt such as reptiles,small mammals and birds.

I'm sure there are other inovative funding proposals that I have not thought of but others may suggest.

One thing about a world wide forum such as this that at least on paper (computer screens) many of the pros and cons can be aired and discussed and a level of concensus could be reached.

Consensus on this forum may be dreaming but it might happen.

Regards
Deafdog

Buy your AR-16s by the case they are cheaper that way...Be sure and stock up on granades and C rations...One must clear the muck of hostiles that roam that countryside...Get after them boys, I am cheering for you......

Ray, It's AR-15s or M-16s not AR-16s.

Deafdog,

Hey, there's nothing at all wrong with ambition and if you think you can raise US$1.6 million a year (and increasing) and set it all up, then you should go for it. My point is that it's nowhere near as easy or as straightforward or as cheap as your original post suggested. - My advice would be that at that price in that location, there's not a hope in hell of that sort of plan working. ESPECIALLY with gorillas in the neighbourhood. The eyes of the world would be upon you, and every time one was poached, it'd be the hunters who took the rap.

My advice would be that if you wanted to take an area and run it on a syndicated basis of some kind, you would be far better off looking elsewhere in Africa where it would be considerably cheaper and involve less hassle. - Even then, I'd point out that Africa is littered with the shattered ambitions of similar plans made by similar people....... But hey, go for it, and I'll even give you free advice about who, how, where, when and how much, if you want me to.

I wish you the very best of luck.

Here is another idea to play around with, with $1.6 mil a year you could buy up a ot of land in either Namibia or South Africa and build your own big playground. Best part is that its all privately owned no government to dictate what you may or may not shoot on most species except for Cites animals.

Your income will also be much higher with privately owned land and the best part of it is, if you sell it one day you will see all that money back not just paying in year after year without any reward.

$1.6 mil a year will take you a long way in South Africa and Namibia. It may never come close to the 850 000 hectares but at least it's safer and your money is invested instead of just paying a fee each year.

Hi Atkinson
With AR Hunters on the prowl the poachers would be too frightened to come into the area.

Shakari, Safari-Hunt
I know you could probably do it else where in Africa but it's the idea of 830,000 hectares of virgin rainforest jungle that the consewrvationists don't want, that makes it a challenge to make a point. Yes I know I'm dreaming.

What I need is a wealthy resident of some small oil rich country that is into African Hunting to take an interest and finance the project.
Or maybe a wealthy Amercan tycoon that is feeling benevolent or a Mutinational that is looking for tax benefits from carbon credits by investing in forests.
Know anyone??

Regards
Deafdog

Hey Carbon Traders

Any AR carbon traders?

Maybe a carbon trader who hunts?

All you need is a bunch of AR guys to manage it for you.

Taken from
http://news.mongabay.com/2008/0215-cameroon.html

One possibility is that carbon traders will look at the value of carbon stored in the vegetation of Ngoyla-Mintom and conclude that it is worth protecting for the stream of offsets if could generate under Reducing Deforestation and Degradation (REDD), a nascent mechanism for fighting climate change by protecting tropical forests. While REDD is only in its earliest incarnation, there are signs that it is progressing. Last week Aceh province in Indonesia signed the first official REDD deal and the World Bank has committed US$300 million to its newly created Forest Carbon Partnership Facility, a scheme that will offer tropical countries carbon offset credits to preserve forests.


A conservative look at Ngoyla-Mintom shows that its 830,000 hectares of forest store upwards of 200 million tons of carbon dioxide (assuming 250 tons of carbon dioxide per hectare — actual values may exceed 700). Should Ngoyla-Mintom qualify for REDD, the forest protection scheme would seem likely to offer competitive returns relative to logging.
The REDD calculations

Between 2000 and 2005 Cameroon lost an average of 1 percent of its forest cover each year. For calculating the potential revenue generated from REDD, this figure is applied to the 830,000 ha of Ngoyla-Mintom forest cover, amounting to a forecast annual loss of 8,300 ha.

Assuming emissions of 160 tons of carbon dioxide per hectare from logging, at $3 per ton of CO2, REDD would generate credits worth $64 million (net present value over 30 years using a 5 percent discount rate), well in excess of the $26 million in concession fees (NPV over 30 years at a 5 percent discount rate). The $38 million difference seems likely to more than make up the opportunity costs of forgoing the jobs and local development from timber harvesting.

These calculations err on the side of caution. Carbon emissions from the logging or deforestation of Ngoyla-Mintom would likely be considerably higher than the figures used, especially if the land was later converted for agriculture. Further, REDD credits are presently higher than $3 and European ETS credits currently trade for more than $90 per ton. Even so, the current model suggests that at a price point of $1.21, REDD credits would break-even with revenue from logging concessions.
Carbon traders, not conservationists, could become the saviors of Ngoyla-Mintom forest.

Regards
Deafdog

As someone who spends his days finding funds for various projects and programs, to say this idea would be a stretch to find funding for, would be a savage understatement, IMHO. You would have to organize a 501 (c) (3), appoint a generous board who likes to give away their own money and a benefactor or 50 who wouldn't ruin the investment they were making by flying in and pissing on everything and in-fighting...

Best of luck,

Brian

I am a Cameroun born hunter. I have hunted in most every open spot in Cameroun on a “chasse libre†basis over the last 25+ years, along with a lot of Congo Brazzaville and CAR. I have looked into buying a concession and will point out that it is very expensive, with many ongoing costs. You need eyes on the back of your head to negotiate with the Cameroun government on deals like this. They are in it simply for the highest bidder.
If you read Hatari times you remember his last jaunt to Cameroun in the Dja area? Two weeks and lots of snares, but no animals later he left without firing a shot. Same story; new area that was supposed to be pristine, buyer beware!
I know one guy who just bought a concession and told me all about it. I happened to know that the government had just sold it to another person as well! If the loggers are not bidding on the concession and they can get upwards of $100,000 per tree the area must be seriously overpriced!! I would be glad to bring to the table a 100 other reasons you would lose your shirt, but if you plan to I would be glad to help with advice on how to do it thread by thread. If someone really had this kind of money it would be a fascinating project.
Camshaft

The idea/concept for AR to consider purchase/or other is feasible (IN THEORY) ...

The main THING IT MUST BE LIMITED IN SHAREHOLDERS TO BE A SUCCESS. TOO MANY COOKS SPOIL THE BROTH.

Just remember the key to success or more specifically peace of mind investment is to MAKE SURE YOU HAVE some local bona fide' entity to fully manage the property as IMHO the biggest issue is to have non-resident landlords and not put a fail safe management company in control.

There is/are nice tracks of land available, but it SOMETIMES is a small nightmare to get the property legally titled game fenced and fully up to an acceptable standard without the input of some local management and or shareholder input and advice. Someone of the ILK of Shakari whom knows Africa like the back of his hand is the type of person that would need to be involved I believe as it is definately not a walk in the park to set up and manage to shareholder satisfaction

We (Balla-Balla Safaris) in partneship with a (local Africa professional developement organisation) are personally working on our own VIP ranch (equity share ownership project) initially within Zambia but with plans to encompass 5 regional Southern Africa countries including (if it goes to PLAN & we get ALL THE DUCKS in a row) SA, Bots, Namibia M'Bique Tanzan etc. It is a MASSIVE and expensive (Widlife/Leisure project UNDERTAKING) that is uniquely (ONE of a KIND) within Southern Africa

Keep the DREAM ALIVE as they say

Cheers, Peter

7......?

Every now now and then, we got one of those silly ideas that beggars any sort of logical explanation.

And this one sems to take the cake!

Imagine a concession owned by a vast number of individuals, each has the idea of using it as his own concession.

Imagine too this same, vast number of individuals, complaining in mass, that they are not getting what they expect from this.

Yep, I can imagine Don Causy working over time publishing all the negative reports.

Anyone who wants his own concession in Africa better dig into his own pockets, and be prepared to live by the rules they have there.

Of course, there are those who wants to use other people's money to get what they want, with promise they already know that cannot be fullfilled.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
7......?

Every now now and then, we got one of those silly ideas that beggars any sort of logical explanation.

And this one sems to take the cake!

Imagine a concession owned by a vast number of individuals, each has the idea of using it as his own concession.

Imagine too this same, vast number of individuals, complaining in mass, that they are not getting what they expect from this.

Yep, I can imagine Don Causy working over time publishing all the negative reports.

Anyone who wants his own concession in Africa better dig into his own pockets, and be prepared to live by the rules they have there.

Of course, there are those who wants to use other people's money to get what they want, with promise they already know that cannot be fullfilled.

Ooohhh - some of you guys are actually serious??? I thought it was just a joke?

Guys
The two mining companies mentioned above

GeoVic Ming Corp
http://www.geovic.net/

Sundance Resources (the owner of Cam Iron)
http://www.sundanceresources.com.au/

This is a copy of an email I have sent them
-----------------------------------------------
DearSir/Madam

With regard to your mining project in Cameroon.

I am seeking an expression of interest from your company as regards donating to or funding the Nygola-Mintom Forest conservation concession in Cameroon.

You may be aware of this if not here are links with some details
http://www.economist.com/science/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10688618
and
http://news.mongabay.com/2008/0215-cameroon.html

My proposal would be to manage the concession as a conservation hunting project to keep the loggers out and to give value to the wildlife as a way of managing and funding anti poaching patrols.

If funding could be obtained to lease the forest area, income could be generated from sustainable hunting with quotas of animals to be hunted set by scientific assessment. The trophy fees would help fund anti poaching patrols to stop the devastating trade in ivory and bush meat it would also lead to employment of local support staff.

Some discussion of the issue on an African Hunting Forum is here
https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1411043/m/599108518
and here
https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1411043/m/448108518

Yours faithfully
Deafdog
-------------------------------------------
Any nominations for positions on the board of Management??

Regards
Deafdog

Interestingly enough I have hunted the forest under discussion. I know the chief of Mintom personally and he has hunted with me and I have stayed at his house numerous times. I hunted there for about 8 years, but quit about 5 years ago due to the high level of poaching. It is very nice virgin forest. I was always under the understanding that the type of trees growing there were not the most profitable for loggers and that is why it did not sell as a logging concession. Also the swampy nature of the center area makes roads very difficult to install.
In the first years there were quite a few elephant in the zone, but the Baka pygmies are very well provisioned by the local authorities with firepower and the decline in elephants was precipitous over the time period I was there.
I know of one lady who did her doctoral thesis on the hunters using the National Park of the Dja, just north of this area, for their meat source. The off-take was substantial, so you get some idea what would be happening in the open zone.
There are a few bongos in the area, but in 8 years of hunting it every year and knowing many hunters to go there, I know of no western person killing one, or even seeing one. I was shown some very nice horns, but I do not think the soils there are to the bongos liking. I have shot sitatunga there, along with forest buffalo and lots of duikers, once you have walked for 2 days to get away from the snare lines. Since access is available from both sides there is only a small center core of space that is not heavily poached, and the elephant loving Baka find nothing extraordinary about following a large set of tracks for a week, so they are pursued all through the area.
For those of you getting Hatari Times read his last Cameroun article. He was in the area immediately adjacent to this zone to the west. (see previous posing.)
I am off for Cameroun in a few hours, and repeat my offer made above to help in any way, I have spent most of my adult life negotiating things in West Africa and I know the area intimately. I would be glad to lend my local knowledge. It would be nice to see a conservation project of this size, but the practicality of this one throw the weight against you.
Camshaft.

Hi Camshaft
Thanks for your input. Local knowledge will be of immense value if I can get some funding.

I reckon that is two potential members for the board of management so far, Camshaft and Shakari.

Any others?

Regards
Deafdog

Deafdog

My thoughts are (if you are deadly keen) is to look at some form of (EQUITY SHARE) arrangement as we are doing privately ourselves in Zambia/other.

With the power of the internet it makes things that much easier to promote and also to get potential investors/expression of interest participants.

Maybe look at say maximum of 100 equity share investors including genuine wildlife people whom want to visit and also possibly some (sleeping partner) investors.

Thos are just my initial of the cuff thoughts, obviously you need to narrow the focus somewhat and come up with a draft business plan to float and to get comment upon.

If I was not so busy myself commercially with our own enterprise and hunting operations I would assist BUT presently I dont have any real free time

Cheers, Peter

Whoa there,

All I've done is tell you how impossible it'll be and that I know how to survey areas...... The only way you'll get me involved is on a strictly business basis. And even then, I've already told you it's a waste of time and money.

Give them 1.6mil zim dollars im sure they wont notice

quote:

Originally posted by Deafdog:
Hi Camshaft
Thanks for your input. Local knowledge will be of immense value if I can get some funding.

I reckon that is two potential members for the board of management so far, Camshaft and Shakari.

Any others?

Regards
Deafdog

You're joking right??

Mike

Hi Shakari
Ok, maybe you can tender for the job of project consultant if your not interested in standing for election to the board of management.

Ok Balla Balla
Thanks for the advice. I am narowing down my focus for potential funders, and am looking for expressions of interest from potential funders.
The mining company Sundance should be interested as they want to build a railway right through the concession to take iron ore to the coast. I agree that the internet is the way of the future for promoting and discussing new ways of doing things.

Hi Bowhunr
I'm not joking. I have contacted the Cameroun Forestry Department for details of the lease and asked if their cool with the hunting.
Stranger things have happened.

If a bunch of green conservationists can get together and fund conservation why not firearm owners and hunters. You don't have to be a hunter to want to contribute just a belief that the value hunting places on animals makes it a better proposition for preserving the wildlife and habitat for future generations. The side benefit here is that you save a rain forest as well. So not only are you preserving wildlife you are helping alleviate global warming.

Firearm owners and hunters have to look to the future and preserve the habitat and wildlife for potential hunting and as a reason to buy and collect arms. Especially countries that don't have an ammendment.

Big things can start from small "silly" ideas.

Regards
Deafdog

No one, outside of some rappers, will send a hundred thousand dollars US to a couple of guys called Deafdog and Camshaft.

Seeing we are starting to get on the mad side of silly in our discussions ....

How about we get the UN to fund it, they sure know how to spend good taxpayers money without any receipts.

OR just go for broke and get the CHINESE to cough up, they already have infiltrated AFRICA and have a MEGA SURPLUS of US Dollars to Burn

Cheers, Peter

Hi Gator
I don't want anyone to give me any money. I am trying to get expressions of interest in the concept of funding the concession for hunting. What made you choose the $100,000 figure? I have not specified any amount for donations.

I would expect to form an entity (company) such as the "Nygola-Mintom Hunters Collective" with an elected board to manage any funds collected.

If the Cameroun Forestry Department won't allow hunting in the concession there is not point in persuing the concept.

I await some response from the question I posed on the Government of Cameroun web site.
http://www.spm.gov.cm/acceuil.php?lang=en

an extract from this site

PM receives iron ore explorers from Australia
Prime Minister, Ephraim Inoni, on Tuesday, February 12, 2008 granted audience to the chairman of an Australian Company, Sundance Resources Ltd. Mr Geoege F. Jones who is on a prospection mission in Cameroon seems to have taken a keen interest in the iron ore reserves in Mballam, in the South Eastern region of the country.

Speaking to the press at the end of the encounter with Cameroon's Head of Government the Australian businessman said their discussions had centred on the final phases of of the contract before extraction of the iron ore deposits in the above mentioned locations. At the moment negotiations are going on between the Government and CAM IRON and the audience was the forum to expedite the conclusion of the convention so that by the end of this month all will be concluded.

Sundance Resources Limited acquired 90 percent of the shares in CAM IRON in 2006 based on its commitment to provide the required funds and expertise. Construction work is expected to begin in 2009 while the extracting will commence in 2011. For the time being, work is going on to facilitate the drilling programme by building the resource pipes to the required level.

The project, whose cost has been estimated at US$ 3.4 billio , will equally entail building a 500 kilometres railway line connecting Mbalam to Kribi along the Atlantic coast, so as to facilitate transportation and evacuation through the deep-water port in that city. Other socio-economic infrastructure will be also be built such as hospitals, schools,etc.



Regards
Deafdog