I have only delt with Kathi once. I was trying to get tickets to Gaborone for mid July.

Due to the outstanding reviews of her service by members of this site and her involvement on the site I decided to give her a try. I mentioned this when I talked to Kathi. I spoke to Kathi on the phone about getting tickets from California to Botswana. My trip was about eight weeks out. My dates were flexible. Kathi said she would get back to me after the weekend. I did not hear back so I called the next week and she said she would get back to me "in a few days". I called again and was told an email would be sent soon. A week passed and I sent an email asking(pleading) if she could get things lined up as I was ready to buy. I went so far as to state that I was not a "tire kicker" and wanted to buy ASAP. Several days passed and still nothing.

I began to panic. My trip was about five weeks out at this point. I called Susan at Gracy Travel and was fixed up in one day. This was my third time dealing with Susan, she has always been great. I told her about my experience and told her I had learned my lesson. I have used her again, this time I am headed to Lusaka in December.

I have no idea what went wrong with my deal with Kathi. She may have been too busy with all you other forum members. But I still don't understand what I took to be stalling on her part.

At the time I really felt like posting about my experience just to to contrast the "Kathi love-fest" that was going on on this forum. I held back because I knew you guys would come out guns-blazin. I see I was right.

If anyone shoud delete their posts it is those of you who posted things like:

quote:

I was introduced to Kathi briefly at DSC last year and all I can say is that she seemed to be a class act, don't think she would mess anybody up.

You must be one hell of a judge of character to be able to make such a statement after being "introduced briefly".

No doubt many of you have good reason to stick with Kathi. She has done well for many of you. In my case I felt that she flaked. This added a great deal of stress to my pre-trip planning. I have no idea what went wrong on her end, she may have had a good reason but I never did hear from her.

Jason Brown

Whenever I mail out my company profile document to hunters particularily from the USA this is what is included in the document /

If traveling ex: USA via JNB onwards to Pietersburg or Livingstone consider these Travel Agents

Mention [ Peter Bird from Balla-Balla Safaris ] referred you

Gracy Travel San Antonio TX /
Travel Studio Toronto Canada /
Premier Tours Philadelphia PA
WildTravel (Kathi Klimes) IL <kathi@wildtravel.net > ph: 708-425-3552 - fax:708-425-4188

Good luck and good travel

Peter

(Ok, so we give credit to posters that dont provide their real name in stories of "good" doings, but on bad doings we dont? Seems odd to me.)



Unknown new poster with 5 posts, hiding behind a internet name. One-sided story, retold by a third party.
Credibility O

My name is Leonard Burke, I live in Moore, Oklahoma, and I had a similar experience with Kathi this year planing for my Zambia trip. I had used Shawn at Gracy Travel for four complicated trips before. All trips went off without a hitch. For some stupid reason, I decided, on recommendations from the forum, to give Kathi a try. I spoke to her early in the year and she said she would arrange everything. I didn't here from her for a couple of months.I figured she was busy with others who were leaving well before me and she would get back to me at the proper time. I made numerous attempts to contact her both on the forum and by phone in May and through June without success even though she continues to post on the AR fourms. I contacted her originally in March and finally in early August I was getting pretty nerveous. After calling Kathi every day for a week both early and late, I got frustrated. Finally I called Shawn and within a couple of days the plans were worked out. The bad news was that the tickets were almost twice as much due the lateness of the arrangements. I don't know what happened with Kathi. She seemed to have a good reputation on the forum. Perhaps she got to busy with high profile clients "Saeed" to look after me, I don't know. I now have used Gracy Travel five times and each time a complicated itinerary, with three or more countries involved and if I did my part, the plans went well.

This years trip to Zambia was a tough one. We missed our connecting flight out of Chicago to London because of the air show in Chicago. This had never happened to us before. Shawn arranged for us to fly out the next day and we only lost one day on the trip.

Kathi left me hanging like JBrown and cost me money. I don't know why. I tried numerous times to contact her without so much as an acknowledgement either by phone or by mail. My experience alone is not necessarily indicative of poor service, however, after several other similar instances being reported, one has to wander. Let the buyer beware, you all have been warned!!!!! I don't have an ax to grind, however, if a forum is to be taken seriously, any issues should be able to be aired and accepted at face value. I met with similar resistance and distain three years ago when reporting misrepresentation and poor performance from an outfitter. All the outfitters that speak through this forum somehow turned it around and it was my fault I was lied to and cheated and intimated that I was the type that was never satisfied. They wanted to know the name of the outfitter which I resisted as I could see where it was headed by their very demeanor. Because I resisted giving the name I was therefore a bogus deal.BUKUM! Sometimes bad shit happens and for no reason. Just because your experience was different doesn't mean the bad shit didn't happen to someone else. If you want more particulars on the Kathi incident, PM me. If you don't, take it at face value!

The man making the most sense on this issue is T. Carr.

It looked to me like all the commercial interests wanted to immediately circle the wagons.

If only positive comments and smoke-blowing is allowed, this isn't much of an open forum.

If you guys want our business and don't deliver, I think it is perfectly acceptable to mention the problem here.

If Kathi had something to say in her defense about what transpired, she would have said it by now I suspect.

The best damage-control is immediately addressing the grievance.

The last I heard from Kathi she was starting a long trip abroad. She may well still be on that or have had to extend it...When I was in contact with her several times,she knew she was never going to make a nickel off me,but still helped me to no end..I guess I can only speak personal experience...I wonder if maybe we all should?Or not speak?

quote:

The last I heard from Kathi she was starting a long trip abroad. She may well still be on that or have had to extend it...When I was in contact with her several times,she knew she was never going to make a nickel off me,but still helped me to no end..I guess I can only speak personal experience...I wonder if maybe we all should?Or not speak?

As I recall, you were the one that slept on the jailhouse concrete floor while in transit on your recent Africa hunting trip, right?

DB

Seeker
I called your work several times and left messages for you to call me.
I was leaving for Africa and would not be able to handle your friend's tour arrangements.
I gave your friend's information to an agent that I had worked with in the past.

You are correct"The Ball was dropped" And I have to take responsibility for trusting someone to do their job, while I was away.
I apologize to your friend and you.

J Brown Listed are the e-mails. After I responded to you I did not hear back.....


-------Original Message-------

From: Kathi
Date: 06/03/05 10:11:32
To: jbrown1@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: Tickets for Jason Brown

Jason,
I have been trying to see if a wait list would clear but it won't for the date you want to leave

the addon from sfo-iad /sfojfk - sold out
the flight from atlanta sold out

do we have alternate dates ?


Regards,

Kathi Klimes

Wild Travel
kathi@wildtravel.net

708-425-3552
708-425-4188 fax


"The world is a book, and those who do not travel read only one page."



-------Original Message-------

From: Jason Brown
Date: 06/03/05 03:40:37
To: kathi@wildtravel.net
Subject: Tickets for Jason Brown

Kathi

I contacted you last Friday, about getting a RT ticket for(about) July 16- Aug 18 from SFO to JNB, and sill have not heard back. I guess you are either real busy, or think I am a tire kicker(I am not). If you can put this together I will buy... I want to set this trip in cement real soon.

Drop me an email when you get a chance.

Take care,
Jason Brown

Well,on a side note. Who would you book with or recommend T Carr. Could you recommend an Agency?
Thankyou

quote:

Originally posted by Dungbeetle:

quote:

The last I heard from Kathi she was starting a long trip abroad. She may well still be on that or have had to extend it...When I was in contact with her several times,she knew she was never going to make a nickel off me,but still helped me to no end..I guess I can only speak personal experience...I wonder if maybe we all should?Or not speak?

As I recall, you were the one that slept on the jailhouse concrete floor while in transit on your recent Africa hunting trip, right?

DB

And that means what exactly? If you get your head out of the boys club arses,you'll note that Kathi had nothing to do with the flights...That was a flight strictly booked by me with air emirshits....OOPS,I'll get banned now for some other reason

quote:

Or not speak?

You did sleep on the concrete Jailhouse floor, right or wrong? No one said Kathi Klimes or any other service put you there.

You said you were going to post a tell all of your African Hunting Safari. Did you ever get around to that? Maybe I missed it on the African Hunting Report.

DB

I think the lesson learned here is, nobody is perfect, and buisness is buisness. I also e-mailed Kathi about tickets, and when no response I spoke to her on the phone twice over a couple week period. As I got no info from her I moved on to someone else. I dont hold it against her if she was to busy, and I doubt she holds anything against me for wanting my tickets ASAP.

i never used kathi ...i recently used discover africa which i found to be average at best...had a problem half way thru my trip and had to pay out of pocket for my return....they said i was shit outta luck for the paid return ticket...is that normal?

Just weighing in on this folks but it seems to me that problems like these occur with any outfit you deal with when time sensitivity is a premium.
Schedules, flights, laws and regulations are always difficult to coordinate on a case-by-case level.
I don't think I've ever known any organization to get it right 100% of the time.

I must say that those of us in business know we try to please all of our clients. Are we 100% successful, probably not, but we try.

Unfortunately, the old adage "one Oh shit wipes out ten atta boys" is a fact we all have to be aware of.

All you can do is learn from the "oh shits" and move forward, trying to avoid the same situation.

Thats life folks, not perfect.... are you?

quote:

Originally posted by Robert johnson:
Anybody accusing someone of wrong doing should post under their real names if they expect any sort of credibility!

That sounds like a double standard to me. Are we to believe that we can post records of accuracy with our custom rifles, robin hooded arrows at 40 yards, etc. under nicknames or internet names but the moment one has something negative to say or report the standard is REAL names only or you're lying? Kathi has responded on the thread directly to Seeker, so now do you believe he has credibility? In fact, she was so honest (it seems to me) that she did infact "drop the ball."

quote:

The people involved here might have a very valid complaint, how can you tell?
At best we have a one-sided story, retold by a third party

Simple--give someone the benefit of doubt. Additionally, you make a great point...how can we tell? In fact, how can we tell if my real name is whatever I post?

From what I've read (after Kathi's responses), seems to me that there's been some gaps in communication. Well, that happens from time to time.

But I respectfully disagree that a "complaint" requires a real name and "positive" posts require any name you come up with or you have no credibility. In fact, 5 posts, 55 posts or 5500 posts shouldn't even be part of the equation when judging someones credibility. AnotherAZ writer had a good idea about double checking the IP address to see if it is someone using a second name.

Why do we have to be a long standing member of the fraternity of forums to make valid complaints or report negative issues, but if a new member comes on board on the 3rd post and show pictures of a nice trophy or a good shooting group, we are "welcomed" to the forum?

That type of double standard is not why I ever signed on as a member. As we can all read, others have come fwd and admitted less than adequate service from Kathi and they were hesitant in doing so and for obvious reasons. Fear of being burned at the stake.

quote:

Unknown new poster with 5 posts, hiding behind a internet name. One-sided story, retold by a third party.
Credibility O

Kathi comes forth directly responding to Seeker, admits dropping the ball in an unfortunate circumstance that turns in to a "lose lose" situation. To that, I would ask this, do you retract your "credibility 0" comment and apologize?

And do the others apologize as well? I'll bet no one will. This is sad, this is definitely a "guilty till proven innocent" scenario. It also demonstrates cleary that members are waiting in the wings to throw stones to those that have genuine complaints just because they've had very few posts.

How do we know that Seeker hasn't been reading the forums for 5 years, just never signed on as a member?

Derek McMurry

I deal with the public daily. Most folks appreciate the quality of service and promptness of my clinic. Sometimes the ball gets dropped...not often, but it happens. When it does and I am made aware of it, I apologize to the affected client directly, make it right if possible, and thank them for letting me know about the problem. More often than sometimes, though, expectations of dissatisfied clients are unrealistic and/or uncommunicated. These people are the squeakiest wheels. Were I a mind reader, then dealing with them would be a snap. Communication is the key to minimizing problems such as the ones relayed in this thread and it appears to me that Kathi is trying to do her part...at least she didn't try to dodge this thread. I don't know her and have not used her services, but I enjoy reading her posts here much more than I enjoy reading dirty laundry posts. JMO

Is airing a conscern considered airing dirty laundry? I don't think so. I call it communication. If it is true then there is good information shared. Those that can appreciate trueth rather than BS should say so. No one is perfect and as with TSJ, I just moved on to a professional travel agent and didn't have to look back. Do I owe anyone an apology??? NO! If it helps someone else from making a mistake then I have helped a little. There are so many variables in an African trip, eleminaating known problems earily makes the experience better.

I don't know all the specific details on this story but looks like some of you guys are coming down pretty hard on the lady?

quote:

Originally posted by mikeh416Rigby:

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
I have no issue with Seeker's post except one: it is his fifth post - which means he is probably an existing member using a different name and does have some other agenda.

Terry:
It would be a great service if you could list those users who post under identical IP addresses.

Good pick-up!

I have no dog in this hunt, but since I am asked:

I looked up the IP address. It is a block owned by XO communications which services the Chicago Area. THe IP is also unique to this user.

Just because you don't agree with the post does not mean the poster is an imposter. Also, just because Seeker only has 5 posts does not mean he doesn't come here and read. He's been a member for 6 months.

I don't know whether Seeker has an ulterior motive or not, but my feeling is with the exception of a handful of people here most of our members are totally anonymous and that should guide you as to what to make of information relating to something you are going to put hard earned $ on.

Kathy uses her real name, business address etc. She has nothing to hide.

Not every business dealing is 100% satisfactory. And when things go wrong there is usually more of the story that should be public before reaching a conclusion.

Don

I agree with lb404 - if this is "airing dirty laundry," then we need more of it.

In the greater scheme of things, $12k isn't big hunt, but it's what I'm planning. In another context, it's the vinyl cladding of my house, and I'm foregoing it for a hunting trip. I don't sign with a house sider without checking references. As a first-timer, I have to tell you the lack of unhappiness to now had me wondering if it were being censored!

It's hard to believe this many people spending this much money with so few visible complaints. It appears now that many (and not merely about this one travel agent) failed to post. It was remarkable to see how quickly the problem became "his fault."

Let's hear the good, the bad, and the ugly...

Jaywalker

doc,

Are you really saying that you don't see the difference between posts about rifles, or arrows, or pictures from a trip and the kind of post that seeker put up about Kathi. Comments about equipment or showing pictures of a recent trip have very little chance doing harm to anyone. Posting a bad experience will cause harm. I am not saying hold off on a negative post. It just seems to me that there should be a higher standard of proof for a negative report.

What bothered me about seeker's post also seemed to bother quite a few others - it was one-sided and retold by a third party. That made it less credible. You suggest that we should have given seeker the benefit of the doubt. I disagree. Working with what we were given I think that the fair response was to give Kathi the benefit of doubt.

I don't really see a good way to balance our desire here to see a steady flow of information about experiences good and bad with the fact that some of it will be BS. I do, however,think that the give and take between the different points of views does tend to clarify the issues

In the end I am with T Carr. Caveat Emptor

Doug

Doug, of course I see the difference. But why should one party get the benefit of the doubt and not the other? Again, even though we had but the originators post to start, giving only Kathi the BOD, is still a double standard.

If posting a bad experience causes harm, then to what degree? I think it's better to tell the truth, which sometimes, "the truth hurts." Furthermore, if the shoe fits, wear it. I think everyone should be willing to share both good and bad experiences whether it causes harm or not.

Seems like Kathi has a large following and still a solid reputation. I don't see any harm done.

quote:

It just seems to me that there should be a higher standard of proof for a negative report.

Then why doesn't this hold true for the stone throwers as well? Why didn't everyone simply wait for Kathi to respond until making a post? I don't disagree with you at all, but how do you suggest a higher standard of proof be implemented? It's easy to smell BS and see it coming but it's awfully pessimistic on the behalf of some of the members to start slamming Seeker from the getgo.

You say seeker's post is one sided. ALL stories are one sided when presented by ONE individual. By a third party? What difference does that make? Would it help if the "friend" came on board, signed on as a NEW member, made his first post, and reported his less than desirable account with Kathi? I doubt it. In fact, I'd bet that would cause a free for all, posts of total zero credibility, etc. That has already been made obvious to me.

I get where all of you are coming from. I just didn't think it was fair. From the history of this forum Kathi has/had every chance to come fwd and state her position, which she did. If I were to book a trip to Africa in 2006 (which I plan on), I will still most certainly consider using her services. Kathi's cohort is who really dropped the ball according to what I read.

When someone has a problem and speaks about it that is one thing. When three others also have a similar problem during the same time frame then that adds credibility to the original statement. Why would you attempt to discredit the complainer with colaboration and not at least acknowledge that there was a problem that was addressed. And "THANK YOU VERY MUCH!" This doesen't have to degrade to a Kathi and supporters on one side of the line and all you stupid, inconsiderate, lieing, inexperienced worthless unenlightened folks on the other side.
Kathi has acknoledged the problem existed and appologised. Argueing with the complainer discredits you and adds nothing to the issue.

Many of us came to this forum for enilghtnement. There is much experience here to draw from. Open discussion is usually encouraged even from those that have limited experience and demostrable lack of expertise. Discussing the issue usually leads to clarity or at least a lively duscussion. If your experience is different say so and let the others sort it out for them selves with the scapegoat diatribe.

I just dont see how one or a few comments are going to " ruin" someones reputation. I would assume we are all smart enough to look into things and make up our own mind. Again, I see this as a learning experiance, dont wait to long before you move on to get what you want.

quote:

Originally posted by TSJ:
I just dont see how one or a few comments are going to " ruin" someones reputation. I would assume we are all smart enough to look into things and make up our own mind. Again, I see this as a learning experiance, dont wait to long before you move on to get what you want.

TSJ

Your post is dead on on all counts. Four negative posts compared to maybe 100 positives shows that she is doing right by most of her clients.

You are correct about moving-on quickly if you don't get what you want. The only problem here is that, sometimes you don't know until it is too late. And on top of that no one wants to drop an agent too soon as we know that they put in a great deal of work and don't get paid if we end up using someone else.

Jason

Don:

I think a lot of posters who are "exposed" (eg Wynwood) come back with different names. Periodically published those who post with multiple names would be helpful.

As for my opinion of Kathy, I don't use a travel agent anyway.

quote:

I don't use a travel agent anyway.

OK, so how do you book your tickets? All the online sources are way over-priced for travel to Africa from what I have seen. Buying direct seems more expensive also.

Jason

I think that there are "favorites' on this forum and there are "non-favorites". You are "in" or you are 'out". Kathi is IN and therefore everyone leapt to her defence without knowing anything. Ann Horsman is IN. 500grains is in..he goes hunting and there are 5 pages of people falling over themselves to wish him luck (plus a few people stirring...!). Just for the record, before I get flamed by the "regulars", I used Kathi for my trip to Namibia last year, She seemed to be just getting started, and everyone was recommending Gracy. Well, I used Kathi and had no problems at all. That does not mean that Kathi is infallible, just that in my case things went well. 500grains has also been very helpful with his knowledge of doubles both on the forum and via PM. If you are "IN", then the "regulars cut you more slack. There is a higher standard required if you post something negative about someone who is "IN".Just FWIW.
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:
OK, so how do you book your tickets? All the online sources are way over-priced for travel to Africa from what I have seen. Buying direct seems more expensive also.

Jason

Some online sources for any travel are excellent. Just periodically check out the top 5-7 sites and see what they provide.

Further and may be best, buying directly from the airline, through their website is often cheaper than buying through a travel agent. The Airline usually removes all or part of the commissions that the agent would have taken and you may accumulate bonus points or addtional $ off by purchasing online. Trust me, as I was one of the key consultants who helped develop the business case to create a major Airline online travel booking site.

Also, buying tickets in segments can come out even cheaper than a through travel ticket.

Finally, using your accumulated points may be best of all

I've used Kathi flying between Texas and Africa. She has also arranged flying my best man there from Hawaii to join me on safari. Kathi's four for four getting me either a whole row to myself, or a unique seating with extra space/leg room for crossing the Atlantic.

When Delta canx'd the Austin to Atlanta leg of my last trip less than 12 hours before it departed on account of Hurricane Katrina, providing no other alternatives that would get me to Hartsfield in time for my SAA leg to Jo-Berg, Kathi found me a flight from San Antonio that fixed the problem. And, she called my cell at 4am her time to make sure I'd made it to the terminal, and gotten my bags checked thru.

I've never met Kathi, nor do I have any commercial interests associated with her or this board.

Stuntpilot

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I had a similar thing happen a few years ago with another booking agent. Everybody gets busy; I like the fact that Kathi admitted the problem and apologized.

I just read one of the gentlemens posting about who is "in" and who isn't?

That smacks of elitism don't you think?

quote:

Originally posted by Wolfman454:
I just read one of the gentlemens posting about who is "in" and who isn't?

That smacks of elitism don't you think?

Probably just more of who has established a track record of credibility with the online members.

I have been reading this forum for a few years now trying to learn more about Africa hunting. I am not an avid computer user and have mostly read not posted. Of the few times I have posted the responces were very limited.

The statment that posters with the same IP adress should be marked so others can know. I feel that is a good idea. What is of more value to the general public is that any person that post on this forum that has any commercial or monatary interest related to hunting travel or information put on this site some how be marked as a commerical vendor.

The comments of the potential damage done by the post has value. The comments that this is all second hand information is much less valid because the opportunity happened due to his recommendation. I hope more people will post their experiences with out fear of this type of abuse. We do not know how long seeker tried to contact her. Every one deserves a chance. With this many people responding to and following this situation this initial post could be of more value to her for future business depending on the reasons for the lack of responce.

I feel that far to many posters are using this forum for personal gain. The protectionism is for the select few is done by a group of people with their own agendas including special treatment from the vendors they want to protect. That value does not have to just be monatary or your source of income.

I feel everyome should use their real name. What are you afraid of or what are you trying to hide.

George K

This thread is really boring.

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:
This thread is really boring.

NITROX, It's getting old also! I didn't turn my dogs out of the pen because as some said, "if you don't get what you want, move on to another operation" or to that effect. What's the difference between changes sporting goods dealer or a plumber and going to a different travel agent.
There have been references to "tire kickers" in the posts. It seems to me one has a much right to compare offerrings from a travel agent as you do a S&B scope deliveried to your house.
Yes, I have to agree I see a certain "clubiness" in the postings, but AR is still the best I have seen.

One good thing about this thread is we all learn from it. We all make mistakes and have done things we would like to redo. The important thing is that we learn and try hard not to repeat our mistakes. Good luck Kathi!


465H&H

Kathi did the travel arrangements on a somewhat complicated itinery for my brother and his fiance to Africa and England this past July.

My brother exhausted a large corporate travel agency as well as a specialty for-fee travel club before I suggested he contact Kathi to see if she could do it. On the first two attempts, the travel agents he talked with barely knew where Africa was let alone advising on details regarding firearms transport and connections. I think that Kathi's experience in safari-related travel saved him a lot of headaches - particularly with is add on trip to the UK following Africa. She added a dimension that did not exist with the other organizations.

From my brother, a big Thanks Kathi!

Doug