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Is there a difference? Is either legal in Zimbabwe? I would love to hear some of the REAL experts chime in on this. It is being offered and would be an opportunity for some to go ele hunting that would typically not be able to afford it. Reservations about getting into something that is not legal. | ||
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Me too. I've received at least three offers for $6500 or $6499 elephant hunts. Nobody is using the word PAC, but it sounds / smells like a PAC to me. Will J. Parks, III | |||
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Only 3!!! | |||
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. . . in the past ten days, of course. Will J. Parks, III | |||
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Ok, that makes alot more sense. | |||
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Hello Hunters: Just a quick mention: I have a PAC (marauding bull) elephant opportunity in Zim, Omay area, this can be done at night by moonlight/flashlight, or by tracking in the mornings. Date window is March 1 -10. $750/day plus success fee of $3500, plus gov't taxes, and you can fly in with the PH, he has a Navajo, for $1500 round trip. If these dates don't work, I have another PAC possible in a different area, but don't leave it much later than end March. Here is an email I just got today from one of the regular posters on this board. I guess I need to clarify that I RECEIVED this email. I AM NOT SELLING ANY HUNTS! Crl The average man's love of liberty is nine-tenths imaginary. It takes a special sort of man to understand and enjoy liberty; and he is usually an outlaw in democratic societies. | |||
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Well, I kinda think PAC hunts are ONLY legal for Zimbabwe residents!! And as far as I know, the "Management" quota has not even been set in Zim yet either? I'm sure some Zim dudes can comment on this better than me. | |||
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so are these hunts legal or not? some call them depredation, now marauding ele's, sounds like PAC, where are our Zimbo's on this? | |||
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crl, That doesn't sound like a normal PAC hunt format even if it was legal for non Zim residents to hunt. My experience is you pay a flat fee per ele and there are no taxes or other costs unless the PH wants to charge for a road transfer. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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505 - PAC hunts are legal to Zim residents only, and I'm pretty sure Zim Nat Parks, has not set any "management" quotas yet either. That's all I know. | |||
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Unless something happened over the weekend, I am not sure that the Management quotas have even been set yet. It is illegal to sell PAC hunts to foreign clients. I am hoping that Martin Pieters will chime in on this soon, but maybe Martin can make a straight forward post with the law relating to PAC and management hunts which members can use as a reference each time PAC hunts are posted | |||
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May I also, for my own knowledge and also on behalf of many AR Forum members who are South AFrican Hunting Outfitters tempted to see if they can make some money in Zimbabwe, ask some real expert to explain the knowledge needed to identify fake from real legal offers. I well know that a single posting will not do it all, but plaese try to cover 80% of the situations with 20% effort. You will be doing me, and many other HO's and hunters, a great service with this. Thanks. Andrew McLaren | |||
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PAC is ILLEGAL. I did happen in the past and was abused and as a result it has been made abundently clear from Parks that PAC is to be done by local Zimbos only ( normaly appies gaining experience) and NOT by FOREIGN PAYING CLIENTS As of this morning Management hunts have not been authorised by Parks Head Office although they are still working on it! | |||
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Buzz, How would i as a Zimbo get to have a go at PAC. PM me if you prefer. Thanks | |||
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PAC is quite difficult for even Zimbos to get hold of purely and simply because, as Buzz said, most operators try to use them to get experience for their appies. You may however be able to find an operator that would allow you to hunt PAC animals in certain areas. They are certainly few and far between tho. | |||
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Hi crl Not sure which Omay area you are advertising PAC hunts in, but we do not sell them, our PH"S attend to any PAC whilst on the ground, if a client is present, he may accompany the PH , period. Please email me details of who is offering these hunts regards Martin martin@bulembisafaris.co.zw martinpieterssafaris@gmail.com www.martinpieterssafaris.com " hunt as if it's your last one you'll ever be on" | |||
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Martin: You may want to look at the wording of a non exportable elephant hunt in Binga currently being offered on AR for Zim by a booking agent. It reads as a PAC type of hunt. Thoughts? | |||
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It sounds to me like anything that is not "trophy" ele hunts in Zim right now (i.e. "depredation", "marauding", "grumpy". etc., etc.) is ILLEGAL and unauthorized. THat's funny, we have 1 being offered right now here on AR by L.David Keith. comments? | |||
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How about if the PAC is shot by the client without any fees being charged and of course the PH is with him? BigB | |||
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Please read my post. I said I received this email from an AR regular selling these hunts. I am not advertising anything. The average man's love of liberty is nine-tenths imaginary. It takes a special sort of man to understand and enjoy liberty; and he is usually an outlaw in democratic societies. | |||
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Thank you for the clarification Clark, just to reiterate, my PH"S and apprentices take care of PAC, if a client is present on safari whilst there is a PAC report, he is more than welcome to accompany the PH on the hunt and have some fun Martin martinpieterssafaris@gmail.com www.martinpieterssafaris.com " hunt as if it's your last one you'll ever be on" | |||
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Buzz and I had experience of this exact situation last year in the Dande East communal area when lions were eating livestock. The locals were all playing hell with the Parks Department to get the culprits shot. The appi that works for Buzz had already shot one lioness, but the cattle eating had contuinued and the local council contacted Buzz for help. Buzz told them that he couldnt help because he was hunting with a client unless the client could do the shooting. Initially they agreed, but Buzz was suspicious and insisted that written permission be given. When we visited Parks for the paperwork it clearly stated that the client could be present, but that any shooting had to be done by the PH. We therefore continued with our own hunt and left the Parks department to sort it out themselves. | |||
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Martin, This Omay hunt was offered to me by Scott Guthrie who says he got it "from another operator" and I assumed that was you! If you want to know who the other operator is, call Scott. PAC restrictions make no sense to me at all. Where have Parks been the last 5 years ... aside from sending their scouts out to monitor these same hunts they now say are to be done by Zimbabwe citizens only? I have personally spent quite a few evenings sitting around a fire with Parks scouts waiting for elephant to come into the maize. I doubt you can find one district council that will turn down a couple of grand and a pile of meat. This is the same Parks dept that allows foreign hunters to shoot elephants on the rations quota, and is actively negotiating a several hundred elephant management quota with the operators (and has been known to allow foreigners to shoot multiple elephants INSIDE the boundaries of the National Parks). The fact is, this time of year, there are elephants in the croplands (and it's no mystery where ... they come back to the same areas year after year) and when that happens, Parks issues PAC permits to the operator who is responsible for that area. I don't get the angst regarding who pulls the trigger, or the qualification that you can shoot one if you happen to be there (who goes to Zim in Feb for anything but a PAC hunt), but you can't sell a PAC hunt in advance. What Parks needs to clamp down on is the practice of shooting trophy bulls in the National Parks and calling that a PAC or management hunt. I think the real problem may lie in the fact that Parks gets no money from a PAC hunt. The money is split between the operator and the local district council. By definition, PAC hunts take place outside Parks-controlled Safari areas. Russ Gould - Whitworth Arms LLC BigfiveHQ.com, Large Calibers and African Safaris Doublegunhq.com, Fine English, American and German Double Rifles and Shotguns VH2Q.com, Varmint Rifles and Gear | |||
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Exactly what Russ said. As for American's, nothing is exported, no laws are broken, so no Lacey act is involved. No seized lands that are off limits to American's are involved, and at no time will any reputable Zim PH allow ANY wildlife laws to be broken. And for those of you who think your clever in trying to smuggle out an Elephant hair braclet, you damn well better have a receipt from the souvenir store or face serious consequences. Also, I for one only work with Zimbabwe resident PH's/land owners; none from other countries operating within Zim's borders and wouldn't unless they are working under the cooperation of Zim Wildlife/Parks and a licensed Zim PH (although I have yet to ever do this). I do not, nor would ever knowingly offer an illegal hunt. LDK Gray Ghost Hunting Safaris http://grayghostsafaris.com Phone: 615-860-4333 Email: hunts@grayghostsafaris.com NRA Benefactor DSC Professional Member SCI Member RMEF Life Member NWTF Guardian Life Sponsor NAHC Life Member Rowland Ward - SCI Scorer Took the wife the Eastern Cape for her first hunt: http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6881000262 Hunting in the Stormberg, Winterberg and Hankey Mountains of the Eastern Cape 2018 http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4801073142 Hunting the Eastern Cape, RSA May 22nd - June 15th 2007 http://forums.accuratereloadin...=810104007#810104007 16 Days in Zimbabwe: Leopard, plains game, fowl and more: http://forums.accuratereloadin...=212108409#212108409 Natal: Rhino, Croc, Nyala, Bushbuck and more http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6341092311 Recent hunt in the Eastern Cape, August 2010: Pics added http://forums.accuratereloadin...261039941#9261039941 10 days in the Stormberg Mountains http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7781081322 Back in the Stormberg Mountains with friends: May-June 2017 http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6001078232 "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading" - Thomas Jefferson Every morning the Zebra wakes up knowing it must outrun the fastest Lion if it wants to stay alive. Every morning the Lion wakes up knowing it must outrun the slowest Zebra or it will starve. It makes no difference if you are a Zebra or a Lion; when the Sun comes up in Africa, you must wake up running...... "If you're being chased by a Lion, you don't have to be faster than the Lion, you just have to be faster than the person next to you." | |||
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So, who should we listen to? | |||
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I'm not doing PAC hunts so I couldn't say. Besides, I'm not saying anything else as I wouldn't want to put several thousand PAC hunters in trouble...they've been doing that for years. LDK Gray Ghost Hunting Safaris http://grayghostsafaris.com Phone: 615-860-4333 Email: hunts@grayghostsafaris.com NRA Benefactor DSC Professional Member SCI Member RMEF Life Member NWTF Guardian Life Sponsor NAHC Life Member Rowland Ward - SCI Scorer Took the wife the Eastern Cape for her first hunt: http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6881000262 Hunting in the Stormberg, Winterberg and Hankey Mountains of the Eastern Cape 2018 http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4801073142 Hunting the Eastern Cape, RSA May 22nd - June 15th 2007 http://forums.accuratereloadin...=810104007#810104007 16 Days in Zimbabwe: Leopard, plains game, fowl and more: http://forums.accuratereloadin...=212108409#212108409 Natal: Rhino, Croc, Nyala, Bushbuck and more http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6341092311 Recent hunt in the Eastern Cape, August 2010: Pics added http://forums.accuratereloadin...261039941#9261039941 10 days in the Stormberg Mountains http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7781081322 Back in the Stormberg Mountains with friends: May-June 2017 http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6001078232 "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading" - Thomas Jefferson Every morning the Zebra wakes up knowing it must outrun the fastest Lion if it wants to stay alive. Every morning the Lion wakes up knowing it must outrun the slowest Zebra or it will starve. It makes no difference if you are a Zebra or a Lion; when the Sun comes up in Africa, you must wake up running...... "If you're being chased by a Lion, you don't have to be faster than the Lion, you just have to be faster than the person next to you." | |||
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Hi All Yesterday I asked a Senior Parks Official what the position was regarding PAC and management animals. His response was quite clear. No operator may sell a PAC animal to a foreign client. If this does occur both the operator and the client are in contravention of the Parks and Wildlife act and can be prosecuted as such. I asked about management animals and he clarified the difference netween management animals and PAC. Management animals are set at the start of every season and are done in areas where there is deemed to be an excess of such animal in a non hunting area.Ie an area bordering a hunting area or in a communal land etc. Management animals are a population control method. PAC animals however are animals which will raid crops, villages etc and the term PAC is only applied if said animal has actually been active in causing such problems. Therefore, it is impossible to pre sell such animals. The Parks Official also touched on the fact that it had previously permitted the Sale of PAC animals, however this was stopped a few years ago due to rampant abuse . It was made clear that at this point in time, the sale and most certainly the hunting of PAC animals to or by foreigners IS ILLEGAL. The Management quota has not been released yet so it would be "unadvisable" to sell management hunts. Please note I am only reporting what was conveyed to me by National Parks. I was at Parks on a different issue and only asked the question out of interest due to this thread. I am not taking sides nor am I accusing anyone of any wrong doing. | |||
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Does anyone know how the PAC hunts were abused? 465H&H | |||
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Summation: Trophy hunt: big bucks for the biggest set of teeth you can find, export the trophy, 100% legal Management Hunt: quota for population control that has not been set at this time, non export, cheap hunt, 100% legal PAC: problem animals identified on the ground as problems occur, only Zimbos can pull the trigger, clients can tag along, hunts cannot be sold to foreign clients nor can foreign clients shoot, 100% illegal for foreign client to buy or shoot Seems to me that the line between PAC and Management is pretty nebulous. If you have a problem ellie in an area where there is a management quota established, couldn't the elephant be shot as either PAC or Management depending on who was available to pull the trigger at any given time. Will J. Parks, III | |||
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Will, a lot of the confusion comes from the misuse of words, myself included. PAC has been applied to many other terms such as "festival," "crop raider," "marauder," "community," "meat hunt" and on and on. PAC (Problem Animal Control) hunts are no longer available to non Zimbabwe residents. These hunts are more spur of the moment and are taken care of by Parks personel or in the case of a Safari company, their Apprentice PH (usually). Management hunts (what I'm offering) could and will be called by a variety of names and thus, the confusion. Season in Zim is typically March-December, but in fact, you can hunt year round on private land. Therefore, we anticipate a management quota soon, but I will not take any funds until we have permits in hand. Booked dates are tentative upon permit release. I hope this helps clear this up and the witch hunt stops 505 Gibbs. If you had any intention or interest in this hunt, why didn't you PM, email or call me....like all the INTERESTED fella's did??? You say you don't want to crush anyone's balls but your doing your damned best to target me as selling illegal hunts! You want to know something about my business, you ask ME. I have nothing to hide...friend. LDK Gray Ghost Hunting Safaris http://grayghostsafaris.com Phone: 615-860-4333 Email: hunts@grayghostsafaris.com NRA Benefactor DSC Professional Member SCI Member RMEF Life Member NWTF Guardian Life Sponsor NAHC Life Member Rowland Ward - SCI Scorer Took the wife the Eastern Cape for her first hunt: http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6881000262 Hunting in the Stormberg, Winterberg and Hankey Mountains of the Eastern Cape 2018 http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4801073142 Hunting the Eastern Cape, RSA May 22nd - June 15th 2007 http://forums.accuratereloadin...=810104007#810104007 16 Days in Zimbabwe: Leopard, plains game, fowl and more: http://forums.accuratereloadin...=212108409#212108409 Natal: Rhino, Croc, Nyala, Bushbuck and more http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6341092311 Recent hunt in the Eastern Cape, August 2010: Pics added http://forums.accuratereloadin...261039941#9261039941 10 days in the Stormberg Mountains http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7781081322 Back in the Stormberg Mountains with friends: May-June 2017 http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6001078232 "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading" - Thomas Jefferson Every morning the Zebra wakes up knowing it must outrun the fastest Lion if it wants to stay alive. Every morning the Lion wakes up knowing it must outrun the slowest Zebra or it will starve. It makes no difference if you are a Zebra or a Lion; when the Sun comes up in Africa, you must wake up running...... "If you're being chased by a Lion, you don't have to be faster than the Lion, you just have to be faster than the person next to you." | |||
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I think Will has it laid out about as simply as it can possibly be stated and not much room for confusion there... Good Hunting, Tim Herald Worldwide Trophy Adventures tim@trophyadventures.com | |||
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Do a search on "TR2" and you will see the following, amongst many others w/the same suggestions and cautions:
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Every "management hunt" I have witnessed has been done with a TR2, INSIDE a safari area, in the presence of Parks scouts. I suppose they can be done in a communal area as well, but communal areas are also considered "hunting areas". So I am dubious about the "outside the normal hunting area" qualification. The real distinction is that PAC animals have to be shot on a PAC permit, and they have to be shot in the act, or I should say "he" has to be shot in the act, as you are supposed to shoot only one if more than one is present, and it's supposed to be a bull. Shooting the one animal will scare the others off until the end of the harvest, usually. And I am really confused as to why the "management quota" is taking so long to set this year. There has been talk for years now, of a larger management quota. In prior years, and number of bulls (young bulls or broken tusk bulls) were taken as management elephant. Last year, a new wrinkle was added, they wanted some cows shot as well. Here's the real dilemma. With the trophy quality in Zim being marginal, Parks (and the Operators, in all probability) realize that if they hand out a large number of management permits including bulls, the number of trophy hunts sold will tank, a lot of clients will opt for a management hunt (or multiple) instead of shooting a 35lb "trophy". This is also the reason why they are trying to price the management quota at a higher price point (I hear they want $5K trophy fee). This is tricky as we all know you can do a tuskless for $2750. And the management quota will have to include cows to achieve the stated aim, ie to reduce the herds. Who is going to pay $5K trophy fee to shoot a cow when you can hunt a TL cow for $2750? As it is, I doubt Zim is selling their entire CITES quota (I think it's 300 or 400 per year) or even close to it. And in any case, the "sound" way to reduce elephant counts is to shoot entire family groups, to avoid creating a large number of traumatized elephants that are much more likely to cause problems for the locals. So the idea of "selling" management quota runs contra to this theory. My prediction: they will end up doing the "cull" themselves. Foreign hunters will not be allowed to participate. The meat from these culls will make rations quota and "festival" hunts unnecessary. Foreigners will be allowed to shoot "trophy" bulls or TL cows, all on CITES quota. Russ Gould - Whitworth Arms LLC BigfiveHQ.com, Large Calibers and African Safaris Doublegunhq.com, Fine English, American and German Double Rifles and Shotguns VH2Q.com, Varmint Rifles and Gear | |||
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In a perfect world. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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Hi Russ I believe that the wording regarding management quotas was to control animals that occurred in excess outside of hunting/safari areas. I dont think the reference was to where the actual hunting to place, but to where the excess animals occurred. I think if the excess occurred within the safari area then it would be a simple process to increase the quota accordingly. Apologies if my wording didnt reflect that. As I said I was just reporting what the Parks Officer told me. | |||
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Posted by LDK:
In all fairness should you not wait until you have the permits in hand first and advertise later? By accepting a booking "in anticipation of the permits" also binds the prospective client who may end up with no hunt and lose the possibility of a guaranteed opening with someone else. | |||
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+1, careful fujo, you will be accused of "witch hunting" | |||
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fujotupu, in this scenario, no money will be accepted until permits are in hand. Once in hand, the hunt would be booked and deposit accepted. Hunter's name goes on the permit at that time. My intention was to get a head count on interest, not start another AR pissing match. Any confusion lies with me, no one else, in my choice of words, and I accept full responsibility. Management and/or PAC hunts are two totally different methods of dealing with Elephant populations or problems in Zimbabwe, which I'm sure you are well aware of. Rest assured that no one will be put at risk with funds. And in situations where anyone feels uneasy about something, don't do it. I would do the same. I will be glad to answer any questions you or anyone has. However, due to the NWTF convention this week/weekend, I may be slow in answering. Email or phone calls are welcome. Regards, David Gray Ghost Hunting Safaris http://grayghostsafaris.com Phone: 615-860-4333 Email: hunts@grayghostsafaris.com NRA Benefactor DSC Professional Member SCI Member RMEF Life Member NWTF Guardian Life Sponsor NAHC Life Member Rowland Ward - SCI Scorer Took the wife the Eastern Cape for her first hunt: http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6881000262 Hunting in the Stormberg, Winterberg and Hankey Mountains of the Eastern Cape 2018 http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4801073142 Hunting the Eastern Cape, RSA May 22nd - June 15th 2007 http://forums.accuratereloadin...=810104007#810104007 16 Days in Zimbabwe: Leopard, plains game, fowl and more: http://forums.accuratereloadin...=212108409#212108409 Natal: Rhino, Croc, Nyala, Bushbuck and more http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6341092311 Recent hunt in the Eastern Cape, August 2010: Pics added http://forums.accuratereloadin...261039941#9261039941 10 days in the Stormberg Mountains http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7781081322 Back in the Stormberg Mountains with friends: May-June 2017 http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6001078232 "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading" - Thomas Jefferson Every morning the Zebra wakes up knowing it must outrun the fastest Lion if it wants to stay alive. Every morning the Lion wakes up knowing it must outrun the slowest Zebra or it will starve. It makes no difference if you are a Zebra or a Lion; when the Sun comes up in Africa, you must wake up running...... "If you're being chased by a Lion, you don't have to be faster than the Lion, you just have to be faster than the person next to you." | |||
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So tuskless elephants cows are really the only option for a budget hunt for foreign hunters ?unless you want to run the risk of ending up spending a holiday in a Zim prison Hostel. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting PAC ele vs Depredation ele Zim 2011
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