quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
If I ever have to follow up on a wounded lion...I will be toting my .500 NE double.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
If I ever have to follow up on a wounded lion...I will be toting my .500 NE double.

And after watching you brain that ele off-hand...I would welcome you by my side with yours!

It would be my pleasure Lane. Thanks for the compliment.

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
A shotgun that shoots a slug accurately would probably be a good choice for follow-up.

Might be.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
A shotgun that shoots a slug accurately would probably be a good choice for follow-up.

Might be.

It's a fair choice for camp protection against Alaskan Brown Bear. You can cycle a round quickly in pumps and the rifled slug out of a 12 gauge probably has better penetration than any double rifle calibers out there.

Your mileage may vary!!

ballistics .. for Brennekes premium Gold Magnum 3" 12guage rifled slug for hunting.

600gn slug at 1500mv. with a typical nominal bore dia. of .730"


Heres a little animal tissue/ wet pack testing of the Dixie hard cast 12g slug 730gn weight.

http://www.dixieslugs.com/home.html

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:
the rifled slug out of a 12 gauge probably has better penetration than any double rifle calibers out there.

Jim,

I am afraid I have to take this up. A 12 gauge slug will not out penetrate a .500 NE or a .470 NE or a .450 NE or a .577 NE.

It may be adequate...I am not sure...have not tried it. But I am confident that my .500 NE will penetrate from the tip of the nose to the anus on a lion with a CEB BBW# 13 solid going ~2100 fps...and kick up dust behind him.

And...be accurate enough to shoot him in the brush should I be lucky enough to catch a glimpse of his hide 50 yards ahead.

Animals face a lion entity not play me, take my 458 Lott with appropriate bullets (that's what I do not know the right tips)

Oscar.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:
the rifled slug out of a 12 gauge probably has better penetration than any double rifle calibers out there.

Jim,



I am afraid I have to take this up. A 12 gauge slug will not out penetrate a .500 NE or a .470 NE or a .450 NE or a .577 NE.

It may be adequate...I am not sure...have not tried it. But I am confident that my .500 NE will penetrate from the tip of the nose to the anus on a lion with a CEB BBW# 13 solid going ~2100 fps...and kick up dust behind him.

And...be accurate enough to shoot him in the brush should I be lucky enough to catch a glimpse of his hide 50 yards ahead.

Lane,

Don't be afraid to take anything I post to task. Perhaps you are correct, I'm not certain. I do know a rifled 12 gauge slug will definitely break a Bear down quickly enough and a short 18 1/2 barrel moves around a tent fairly easily.

Cheers
Jim

Lane, a .500 NE (or any other big bore double) is obviously a great choice for follow-up work. On the one wounded lion we followed up this year, we were faced with very thick brush, which would have meant a close charge. I was carrying a bolt gun and was happy to be armed. My boss had his .500 NE double and later figured it was the only reason he would have been able to get a second shot, and then only just barely. The cat was incapacitated by the time we got to it, so the situation ended without significant drama, but it underscored for me how important a fast second shot can be.

I do own a double, and I'd be happy to take it on a follow-up, but I feel my Benelli M4 with Brennekes might be even better, especially if faced with a charge from longer distance. That way, you're not stuck shooting the first barrel quickly and then holding out until the last second for your only other shot. I'm also fairly confident with the 50 yard or less accuracy of the gun. No, it won't go stem to stern like your .500 or my .450, but I'm confident it will do the job if a shot is put into the CNS, which is really the only way to guarantee a stop. Anyway, it's just an interesting idea based on modern improvements in shotguns and shotgun ammo. Doubles are very good at what they're good at, and that's not going to change.

Just hope you never have to face a wounded lion!

I hope like hell that I never have to, but if I do, I want my .577NE, and the Cutting Edge Bullet with me. I would feel like I was screwed with a scoped rifle, in a true lion charge.

A shotgun, not for me, but whatever you think is best I say.

Had the Blaser out to the range this morning. Do not have a Trijicon scope on it yet. Was using a Zeiss 3-9x38 Conquest. Used a load of 71 grains of RL15, F215M and 300 grain Barnes TSX. Velocity was in the 2500-2550 fps range. Accuracy was three shots in just under 1" at 100 yards.

Starting to think about back up rifles now. Leaning towards my Searcy .450/.400. It is set up with Talley mounts and wears a Leupold 1.5-5x20 Vari-X III. That gives me a double but a double with a scope if for some reason I need a substitute for the Blaser. I can drop the scope if we end up having to do a follow up or decide to track in the thick stuff. Thinking about loading the CEB Non-Cons and Solids for the Searcy. The Non-Cons would work for lion or baits.

Next week I will have another plan, but that's the plan for now.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Had the Blaser out to the range this morning. Do not have a Trijicon scope on it yet. Was using a Zeiss 3-9x38 Conquest. Used a load of 71 grains of RL15, F215M and 300 grain Barnes TSX. Velocity was in the 2500-2550 fps range. Accuracy was three shots in just under 1" at 100 yards.

Starting to think about back up rifles now. Leaning towards my Searcy .450/.400. It is set up with Talley mounts and wears a Leupold 1.5-5x20 Vari-X III. That gives me a double but a double with a scope if for some reason I need a substitute for the Blaser. I can drop the scope if we end up having to do a follow up or decide to track in the thick stuff. Thinking about loading the CEB Non-Cons and Solids for the Searcy. The Non-Cons would work for lion or baits.

Next week I will have another plan, but that's the plan for now.

Mike - Right now I am having a new .416 Ultra Mag built! I'll send it to ya, take it as a back up/bait gun my friend. A 350gr CEB at 2,700 FPS, it will do the job!

Thanks Aaron. Choices is not the problem, winnowing down the choices is the problem! I really would like an excuse to take a double. I could take the Heym but it is set up with a Docter Optik red dot so it would not be an ideal back up for the Blaser. Would be primo for follow up though.

if you shoot well with the Double then do yourself a favour and take it. It makes for a pleasurable experience trying not only for Lion but getting in a position to use open sights.
Providing light is sufficient to see the bead, I personally find open sights more easier to align in hunting situations within 60m.
If your hunting with Buzz then your set. Just ask him not to throw stones at it before you shoot!

Mike, very simple answer. Don't mess around with a lion. Use a quality/scoped rifle, and hammer him hard the first time! Bring your double as a back-up, if you wish.

Remember, wounded lions are not wounded buffalo/elephants. They are lightning fast, and KILL for a living! They are very good at it, and know exactly how to do it. I would happily face 10 buffalo/elephant charges, vs one lion charge - as I said before, no thanks! Fact is though, the likelihood of that is very slim. So, shoot what you are most comfortable with, make a good shot the first time, and all will be just fine.

I once spent about two hours following up a wounded lion in tall grass. I was carrying my 22 inch barrel .505 loaded with 600 grain Barnes softs.

It turned out the lion was not seriously wounded. When last seen, he took off running away from us and jumped a 16 foot wide gully to the top of an eight foot bank on the other side. All traces of bleeding had stopped by then. However, I was pretty confident that what I was carrying would have stopped a charge. I'm just glad that I didn't have to find out for certain and that no one got hurt.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:
the rifled slug out of a 12 gauge probably has better penetration than any double rifle calibers out there.

Jim,

I am afraid I have to take this up. A 12 gauge slug will not out penetrate a .500 NE or a .470 NE or a .450 NE or a .577 NE.

It may be adequate...I am not sure...have not tried it. But I am confident that my .500 NE will penetrate from the tip of the nose to the anus on a lion with a CEB BBW# 13 solid going ~2100 fps...and kick up dust behind him.

And...be accurate enough to shoot him in the brush should I be lucky enough to catch a glimpse of his hide 50 yards ahead.

This business about a shotgun is bad business. Never ever take a shotgun to do a rifles job. There is no such shotgun slug today that exists that will even be 1/3 of what a proper rifle bullet can do. Leave the shotguns for the birds!

If you want to knock a lions dick in the dirt, with any of the doubles load nothing but the BBW#13 NonCons to just beyond your solid velocity. Don't expect to recover anything but the hide, goo from the vitals, a few blades, but you won't recover the remaining bullet.

Aaron is 100% spot on with this;

quote:

Right now I am having a new .416 Ultra Mag built! I'll send it to ya, take it as a back up/bait gun my friend. A 350gr CEB at 2,700 FPS, it will do the job!

Don't mess around with a lion. Use a quality/scoped rifle, and hammer him hard the first time!

Kitty does not like velocity. Many times you will catch me saying, some years ago, with many conventionals Velocity is not always your Friend. With a lion, Velocity is your Friend, if your Bullet does not suffer for it. Meaning, using a conventional, know the upper end velocity of that bullet, and use it. With a BBW#13 NonCon--There is no upper end velocity! Use everything you can, the more velocity, the better the NonCon likes it, and the kitty will NOT LIKE IT AT ALL. Breaking bone is very good.

The very best thing you can do, Hit it with everything you can the first time! If there is a chance for a second shot--by all means hit it again, and again and then one more time until there is not a quiver left. Then shoot him one more time!

Aaron, the 416 at 2700 will turn one inside out!

This shotgun thing is a no no-Not for lion. While it may work, it will not leave as much trauma behind as you think. They just do not have the velocity needed. Yeah, punch a big hole, but not as much knockout trauma as one wants. As for penetration in that newsprint above that someone posted, that is not much, we have plenty of bullets that can travel that deep. Remember, they were not using a mix like mine, straight wet print. Wet print is softer than the mix I use. They were getting from 15-29 inches penetration in the soft wet print. A good solid from any of the doubles will do 65 Inches + in my 35% tougher test medium. Almost any of the BBW#13 NonCons would out penetrate any of that slug work shown. Even in my test medium it is normal to have 25 + inches, and it's 35% tougher than what those guys were using.

Honestly! A shotgun slug is not very impressive in the field-It lacks velocity. 1400-1600 fps does not cut it. Rifle velocity, even the big bores, at 2000 + starts to make a very very big difference! Leave the shotguns for the birds!

Michael

Nix the shotgun.

In the very near future there are going to be two real dandy lion and kitty bullets available. One of course is the new ESP Raptor--Light for caliber double ended BBW#13s. Light for caliber big bores will be able to run fast, hit hard, and drive through, a BBW#13 NonCon at high velocity in the big bores.

Second, for those more conventionally minded, was talking to John at North Fork, they are working on a premium bullet that will open up easy, but of course retain that weight, as I understand larger, longer petals will open up, causing a lot of trauma. Maybe if North Fork catches wind of this he can come give better detail, going from memory, and that is not so good these days! But it is specifically designed for this sort of work.

Michael

michael458,

I'm not advocating using a shotgun for the first shot on a lion. That would be really stupid. I agree that velocity is very important on first shots, and I frankly believe a .30-06 with good bullets would do a fine job in most situations, although a .300 Mag. or bigger is likely a better idea. I'm just saying the penetration with the best slugs (a 3" Brenneke Black Magic or a Dixie is a very different animal from the Remington Express junk sold at Walmart) is plenty good for lions, and I'd rather have eight fast shots with a semi auto shotgun than two fast shots with a double rifle. If the only thing that's guaranteed to stop a charge is a hit to the central nervous system, then I'm happy with what slugs can do--and I'm very familiar with the significant limitations of slugs. Trauma will generally be limited to the diameter of the slug, and penetration won't be nearly as deep as with the latest solid rifle bullets, but it sounds like penetration numbers between the very best slugs and the CEB NonCons might be fairly close. Please note that the 15 inch number cited in that Dixie slug test was penetration accomplished after penetrating heavy bone.

Even in a charge situation, there is surely some value to the tissue disruption caused by a bullet like the CEB NonCon. Unfortunately, I'm not aware of a practical option that will allow more than two quick shots with such bullets. A double gives you two very quick shots with the best bullets around, but then you're out of ammo. With a bolt gun, you give up some speed and gain some capacity. With a semi auto shotgun, you give up wound channel size and shock but are just as fast as the double and have even greater capacity. Tradeoffs are inevitable, and that's the one I'm most comfortable with.

My mentor PH faced a charge from 50-60 yards three years ago. He shot the charging lion three times with his .458 Win. Mag. before it stopped. The first two shots shredded the heart and lungs, but the lion didn't slow down at all. The third shot, a head shot, dropped the cat right before it got to the client. When asked if he would have been screwed with a double, my boss said no, that he simply would have waited until the last moment to take the second shot. Obviously, that sort of situation requires great discipline. Under such circumstances, a semi auto shotgun with slugs might be the best option of all. You'd be unlikely to empty the gun, but four or five quick shots would certainly be doable.

Again, I'm 100% in favor of high velocity and disruptive bullets (such as the CEB stuff) for the first shot on lions, and I don't think there's any downside to using the same kind of bullets during follow-up work. It's just that I feel a semi auto shotgun might actually be better in a follow-up situation, if only for the higher capacity.

For clients participating in follow-ups, I agree that a double with open sights or a reflex sight is likely the best choice, although the first (and by far most important) shot should always be with a scoped rifle, preferably with a high velocity projectile that will impart a lot of shock and tear up as much tissue as possible. It looks like the latest stuff from CEB and Northfork would be perfect for this, and I don't think those bullets would handicap a person on a follow-up, either.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Second, for those more conventionally minded, was talking to John at North Fork, they are working on a premium bullet that will open up easy, but of course retain that weight, as I understand larger, longer petals will open up, causing a lot of trauma. Maybe if North Fork catches wind of this he can come give better detail, going from memory, and that is not so good these days! But it is specifically designed for this sort of work.

Northfork posted earlier on that bullet design;

quote:

Originally posted by North Fork:
To MJines,

We have been developing bullets with input from Kevin Robertson in .375, .416, and .458 just for this duty. We call them the Percusion Point, or PP. They are relatively the same as our current soft point except for an outer groove that helps the bullet expand almost instantly on impact. For the feline family, shock kills the large cats, unlike the heavy animals (buffs, elephants, rhino, etc). It will not come apart or make a bigger mushroom than our standard bullet and one can still use them on tougher game you will just loose some overall penetration due to the quicker opening . The advantage to this bullet is you will be able to feel what bullet you will load into the gun. While this may not seem like much, but now one will have a tactile confirmation in low/dark light situations, i.e. a blind. If there is much call for the 9.3mm, we can make those as well.

Just another option for you to think about.

Regards,
North Fork

what do folks think would be ultimately better for big Cats, the CEB raptor that looses it petals and has a longer wound channel, or a NF-PP that would create a larger dia. wound channel?

Sandy

Very well put, a good plea for your case. I believe you when you say the Brenneke or Dixie is not the same animal as the Rem Express from Wally World, even though I have no experience with either of those. I will take your word on the matter. I think I would only consider that after extensive testing of these. I am way out of date on shotgun tech, while I consider it a possibility that some new designed slugs of the day might be adequate for the mission, I would rather do some extensive test work before hand here for comparisons to what I know is beyond adequate.

While I think it might be possible to get a semi auto shotgun in some countries, I think it will be an issue to do so most of the time. And if I had my rathers on a charging lion (if there was no tree close by I could climb to buy some time) then I would opt for a heavy machine gun myself, with several hundred rounds ready! LOL...... But that might be a real issue to deal with in and of itself!

Problem is, would one really carry that on safari? Limited as the shotgun is, and things being mixed bag, and limitations on the amount of ammo/rifles, weight in general I would not consider it. I did carry a shotgun once for dove shooting, and I have to admit, I am just not a shotgun sort of chap. I don't care for them one way or the other, and I am no bird hunter by any stretch.

I am sure shotgun tech has increased quite a bit since I last looked at it, by tech I mean better slugs, this that the other. Lions are kinda scary, I think I will stay with the fact of hitting them hard as possible, with a wicked ass bullet, the first time, and hopefully not have too much of a follow up!

Trax

OK, great, I missed somehow the North Fork post! Good they brought it to the table.

quote:

what do folks think would be ultimately better for big Cats, the CEB raptor that losses it petals and has a longer wound channel, or a NF-PP that would create a larger dia. wound channel?

Since I have yet to see the North Forks, I have not been able to test any to study the results. So for myself, no way to answer that question until I can get my hands on the bullet for test and evaluation.

Michael

Never hunted a lion and probably never will. A 375,416 and 458 Nosler partition will blow away the nose and still retain a bit over 80% of its weight.
Very similar to the non cons. The 375 & up NP's are built a bot tougher and retain more weight than the smaller calibers. The 250 gr 338 is pretty tough as well.

Much ado over a 300/400lb soft skinned cat whose resilience once hit hard will slink away and give up the ghost unless its a case of DRT (seldom).
Shoot a front leg off and it won't make the slightest bit of difference whether you used Northforks, Southforks, Nozlers or Woodleys!

And that is applicable to all DG - shoot straight with any decent bullet and the job is done.

Having not faced a full charge I am not properly qualified to comment.

However, my father shot lion and leopard with a sporterised Lee Enfield and a Paradox for follow up. Given that he was using mostly military ball ammunition in the .303, charges were common. Having tried alternatives he said nothing gave him more confidence inside ten yards than a Paradox; ball in the right barrel and SSG (or similar) in the left. He died of old age, unscarred.

Therefore, I would use the same for follow up.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Milo Shanghai:
I'd go with what I know and shoot best; .458WM and a shot gun for follow up. No shooting over bait unless PAC.

Shotgun for Lion? Think you are best using the trusty 458WM which is a big hitter. If you have sorted out a wounded Lion with shotgun I would be keen to hear about it mate.

Cheers

quote:

Originally posted by Milo Shanghai:
Having not faced a full charge I am not properly qualified to comment.

However, my father shot lion and leopard with a sporterised Lee Enfield and a Paradox for follow up. Given that he was using mostly military ball ammunition in the .303, charges were common. Having tried alternatives he said nothing gave him more confidence inside ten yards than a Paradox; ball in the right barrel and SSG (or similar) in the left. He died of old age, unscarred.

Therefore, I would use the same for follow up.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Milo Shanghai:
I'd go with what I know and shoot best; .458WM and a shot gun for follow up. No shooting over bait unless PAC.

Shotgun for Lion? Think you are best using the trusty 458WM which is a big hitter. If you have sorted out a wounded Lion with shotgun I would be keen to hear about it mate.

Cheers

Sounds like a proper chap your old man.

I am not familiar with shotguns or their use on cats but have noted quite a few PHs use them when following up Leopard.

I hunted with a PH who knew David Ommaney well and they had tested 12 gauge slugs on Lion in East Africa many years ago. He told me categorically that shooting wounded Lions with a 12 gauge slug was a very bad idea,I cannot remember all the details of the story and circumstances but it is one piece of advice i have never forgotten.

Shot placement is everything, but you just have to watch the video of Peter Chipman being mauled to realise that calibre and bullet type can make a whole lot of difference

quote:

Originally posted by sandyhunter:
Under such circumstances, a semi auto shotgun with slugs might be the best option of all. You'd be unlikely to empty the gun, but four or five quick shots would certainly be doable.

I think a Browning BAR in .338 WM with 250 gr solids still might still beat a shotgun.

Shotguns and Lions? Not for me, thank you very much. Shotguns for Leopard follow-up, different story altogether. Not even the same ballpark.

High velocity, tough bullet on Lion, are an absolute necessity based upon my experience with live Lions. Two people whom I respect and consider friends and who have much more experience with Lions and ballistics, respectively, than I - Aaron and Michael - have stated their knowledgable opinions on the issue in question. My experience validates their opinions and we are in 100% agreement. To hold contrary opinions seems rather ludicrous to me.