What are the thoughts of folks regarding the ideal set up for lion? Here are my current thoughts. A bolt action rifle (possible a Blaser) in either .375 H&H or .416 Rem Mag/Rigby topped with a medium power 1.5-5, 1.75-6X or 2-7X scope probably with an illuminated reticle. Bullet choice would be either a Swift A-Frame or possibly Barnes TSX either in 300 grains. Along those lines my current leanings are towards a Blaser R93 in .375 H&H, topped with a Leupold 1.5-5x20 Illuminated Reticle scope and shooting 300 grain Swift A-Frames or 300 grain TSX bullets. Thoughts?

I have had good luck with energizer.....

why a blaser ? I know you have better taste

Mike,
I carried my custom Brno 602 in .375 H&H topped with a Zeiss 3x9 and shooting 300 grain Swift A-Frames on my lion hunt last April.

The next trip I will probably carry an AHR .375 RUM topped with a Leupold 2.5x8 shooting 300 grain Accubonds.

Popular literature tells you a bullet with a bit more speed, expansion, hence shock, is better for cats then a TSX, etc. but the cat probably won't be able to tell much of a difference.

But then again, a good .404 or .416 always works magic as well!

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Originally posted by A.Dahlgren:
why a blaser ?

- Extremely accurate
- One of the best triggers available on the market
- Lightening quick cycling
- Great scope mounting system that allows removal for irons and reattachment with no zero shift
- Dependable
- Safe, uncocked carrying

What's not to like with that?

Bolt action .300 Magnum to .375 Mag off choice. 3-9 Trijicon. Maximum velocity for caliber loading. .300 cal 200 gr, .338 cal 225-250 gr, .375 cal 260 gr, all Nosler Partition.

The NP maybe the perfect balance between explosive expansion and toughness needed for cats.

My choice would be my 416 Rigby, Trijicon 1.25X4, 350gr TSX at 2,650fps.

I like blaser also but take one of your classic rifles it will look so much better next to the lion

I like your ideas, Mike.

I have killed two lions so far with a Blaser R93, one with a .375 H&H Mag. barrel and Schmidt & Bender 1.25-4x20mm Flash Dot illuminated reticle scope on top, and the other with a .338 Win. Mag. barrel and a Schmidt & Bender 2.5-10x56mm Zenith standard reticle scope on top.

Bullets were Hirtenberger 272 grain ABC bullets in the .375 and Barnes 225 grain XLC coated X bullets in the .338.

Both worked very well.

Good choice Mike. Although I am not a Blaser fan yet, I think that your setup would be perfect. My lion was shot with an M70 .375 H&H. The bullet choice was Federal's Trophy Bonded.

Mike-

No problems with your package, while I prefer the .416Rem over the .375.

I killed my big Lion with a .458Lott wearing a Leupold 1.5-5x w/illuminated circle-dot reticle and shooting 500gr Swift A-Frames, one shot and found him stone dead 50 yards away.

Do be prepared for the Lion to push off after the shot, it's what Lions do; they don't seem to know they're dead. I've never personally seen a bang/flop Lion.

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Originally posted by LionHunter:
Do be prepared for the Lion to push off after the shot, it's what Lions do; they don't seem to know they're dead. I've never personally seen a bang/flop Lion.

Mike - You haven't been watching the GLOBAL HUNTER DVD's have you?

Hey Aaron-

See you at SCI next week? BTW, "personally seen" does not include videos, even yours! HEH-HEH

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Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

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Originally posted by LionHunter:
Do be prepared for the Lion to push off after the shot, it's what Lions do; they don't seem to know they're dead. I've never personally seen a bang/flop Lion.

Mike - You haven't been watching the GLOBAL HUNTER DVD's have you?

So Aaron you have more experience in this area than virtually all of us, what is your ideal battery?

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
Hey Aaron-

See you at SCI next week? BTW, "personally seen" does not include videos, even yours! HEH-HEH

Ya, I figured!! I'll be at the Danny McCallum Safaris - Tanzania booth. Catch up with me there, or call my cell phone.

I'll be using my Hoffman Arms (Winchester M-70 1938 action) .375 H&H pictured in the hunt reports below. 300 grain TSX. Swarovski 2.5 - 10 illuminated.

I'm also taking my .416 Rigby, 400 grain TSX, 1.25 x 4 Swarovski Illuminated. But that rifle will only see the Lion if.........Andrew quit reading........ I muff the shot with the .375 and need to follow-up. The scope will come off then and the .416 shoots very nicely with open sights.

On a side note, via email, Harry Selby told me to use my 300 H&H.

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Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
Do be prepared for the Lion to push off after the shot, it's what Lions do; they don't seem to know they're dead. I've never personally seen a bang/flop Lion.

Mike - You haven't been watching the GLOBAL HUNTER DVD's have you?

So Aaron you have more experience in this area than virtually all of us, what is your ideal battery?

Mike - Man, I'm just a hunter/guide, I'm no gun/ballistics expert by any means. Certainly alot of you folks spend alot more time/energy on gun ballistics than I. So take what I say with a grain of salt.

My opinion on cats, and nothing more, is SPEED kills. I've killed 9 of of my lions with my .375 RUM using 270gr Barnes-X bullets at almost 3,000 fps. I tease Mike (LionHunter) above, because maybe 1 or 2 of the 9 have gone more than 5 feet from where they stood. Another one I shot with a .340 Weatherby (went 50 yards, fell over dead) the other was shot with a 375 H&H, (he went 100 yards, had to shoot him once more)

I've become such a fan of the CUTTING EDGE BULLETS now, that likely I will be going to them for everything. If I wasn't doing that, I would likely try the 260gr Accu-bonds in my .375 RUM for lion, and get it up over 3,000 fps.

Secondly, and to me most importantly, anchoring the lion where he stands is the key! Its quite simple really, a high-shoulder shot, and he will drop like a brick, almost guaranteed! This allows for follow-up shots, etc. But DO NOT shoot him "behind the shoulder", which can become behind the lungs (big trouble), etc, etc. Any of the caliber/bullet combos you mentioned will do the job, I'm sure of it. Shoot what you are most comfortable with, and shoot him in the shoulder! No matter how the cat is standing, the anatomy never changes, only the angles. Think of it in terms of the Elephant brain shot, and there's a good explanation of this by Ivan, on the "Bodd on Ele" dvd. The angles may change, but the brain is always in the same place.

Shoot him, and keep shooting him until he stops moving! Don't be the guy that admires your shot, and shoot him anywhere you can after the first one, just keep shooting him. When you shoot as bad as I do, a pound of lead (copper in my case) is sure worth it. IMO only, give me all the charging buffalo/elephants you want (especially after getting the .577NE - wow!!) but please don't make me ever have to go into the long grass after a wounded lion! 450 - 500lbs of lightning fast - killing machine, NO THANKS!!

Mike I do not like looking thru the 20mm. I love the 1.75X 6x thru a 30mm tube and a 40+ mm objective lens. More light Bigger pic.

My African battery is a 375 Kimber 300gr TSX Max load. Send it screaming. Also pristine points on the TSX hollow points. Second rifle is my double in 450#2 with 500gr Hornady round nose softs. The up close and personal rifle.

Mike

A 450/400 Double Rifle, with a S&B 1.1-4 scope with an illuminated reticle, in claw mounts.
With an illuminated reticle and a low power of 1.1 you can use the scope like a red dot, and have up to 4 poser if you need/want it.

Bullets 400gr Woodleigh Softs.

Worked great for me.

.340 Wthby with 250 gr NP works great

I think Lane and Aaron have it right on this one. Velocity is important for cats. For what it's worth, the PH I work for has tons of a lion experience and feels a .300 is a great lion gun. Personally, I just can't see the need for a .416 on a 500 pound or lighter animal. However, if you do go with a .416, choose a lightweight bullet. Similarly, a 260 or 270 grain bullet in the .375 will be better than a 300 grainer.

I also agree with Mike's statement about having a bigger objective lens. 20mm scopes look cool, but they're crappy in low light. Last time I checked, a fair number of cats get shot at last or first light.

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Originally posted by sandyhunter:
I think Lane and Aaron have it right on this one. Velocity is important for cats. For what it's worth, the PH I work for has tons of a lion experience and feels a .300 is a great lion gun. Personally, I just can't see the need for a .416 on a 500 pound or lighter animal. However, if you do go with a .416, choose a lightweight bullet. Similarly, a 260 or 270 grain bullet in the .375 will be better than a 300 grainer.

I also agree with Mike's statement about having a bigger objective lens. 20mm scopes look cool, but they're crappy in low light. Last time I checked, a fair number of cats get shot at last or first light.

Ya, Mike this is also a good point to consider on the scope. Look man, you're likely in a blind, so take all the advantage you can when it comes to the optics you use. I'm certain I've never had a scope on less than 5x-6x, and normally on 8x when shooting a lion, so the shooting is precisely where I want it. The Lion isn't running around, moving quickly, etc, etc. He walks up to the bait, you're in a sitting/comfortable position, and generally you have all the time you need.

Any scope on a follow up for a lion is worthless anyway, so consider a 2.5 x 10 Trijicon, with the illuminated reticle, and use it for all its worth. Just a thought.

Mike as you well know I’m not a lion hunter, so anything I have to say on this is only my opinion! So be it, I have thought a lot about lion and leopard hunting, and do have some insight into what is needed for that pursuit, where rifles are concerned. Still, only opinion, none the less.

I find a lot to justify your choice listed above, and that rifle is the only Blaser rifle I would consider for this purpose. My choice however would be different depending on how the cat was to be hunted. By that I mean I would use that rifle more readily for the cats on bait, for the shot or shots from the hide on the bait, but would not use a push feed rifle for a follow-up if the cat got into the weeds after that first shot. There I would change to a double rifle with irons if possible.

If hunting spot and stalk, or tracking I would use a CRF bolt rifle with a Trjicon 3-9X40 scope chambered for 375H&H with either 300 gr Nosler Partitions, or the Swift A-Frames in Quick-detach bases and good irons, if a follow-up was needed and I had to use the bolt, but there again I’d rather have a good double for that.

I’m sure your choice will work for you, because I’ve seen you shoot and I doubt there will be need for a follow-up!

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The angles may change, but the brain is always in the same place.

This is good (and old) advice that isn't heeded enough. Far too many people rely on exterior aiming points to try to find interior vitals. In Saeed's video, Roy shoots a wildebeest and the shot looks really bad from the broadside perspective but when you look at the angle of the animal when he shot he was spot-on of course.

Good feedback, thanks. Illuminated reticles are certainly getting lots of support. I should have mentioned that the Leupold 1.5-5X is a 30mm tube, that helps a bit on light gathering. I need to look more at the larger objective Trijicons. I have one of the 24mm objectives but have not looked at any of the 40mm objective versions.

My thinking on the TSX is that I can use it for everything. We will be hunting buffalo too as well as other bait animals. Rather than having to mess with multiple types of ammo, I can load the TSX and be good to go for whatever we come across (sans elephant).

quote:

I also agree with Mike's statement about having a bigger objective lens. 20mm scopes look cool, but they're crappy in low light. Last time I checked, a fair number of cats get shot at last or first light.

I don't think the brand of rifle is very important when shooting from a blind with a dead rest. The scope needs to have a good light gathering capability and an illuminated reticle. The lion may come at the very last minute of shooting light and one of the lower power variables is almost useless in that situation. Ideally the bullet should open easily but also give good penetration. A Nosler Partion of Accubond might be perfect.

I'm hunting lion this year with my 375 Wby using the 300 Northforks because frankly the other more frangible bullets do not shoot well in that rifle. Also I'm kind of a one bullet per rifle guy and the Northfork will handle anything. I'm sure the TSX's would work fine and my rifle does like them but I have to think the Northfork will make a bigger hole. I topped the rifle with a 3x9 Trijicon and I think it might be nearly perfect.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by MJines: My thinking on the TSX is that I can use it for everything. We will be hunting buffalo too as well as other bait animals. Rather than having to mess with multiple types of ammo, I can load the TSX and be good to go for whatever we come across (sans elephant).

Yep, good point! I think the CEB's would do the same as well.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I should have mentioned that the Leupold 1.5-5X is a 30mm tube, that helps a bit on light gathering. I need to look more at the larger objective Trijicons.

Not whatsoever. All a 30mm tube gives you is more windage adjustment, a more rigid tube and room to stick an ill reticle package in it. The 20mm objective lens SUCk for light TRANSMISSION. Scopes don't gather light

It is my understanding that 30 mm tubes do very little to help light gathering. Also, please note that my negative opinion of small objective scopes for cat hunting comes from my experience using a Swarovski Z6i 1-6X24 mm, a scope with a 30mm tube, an illuminated reticle, and some of the best glass around, in terms of light transmission. Problems created by the 24 mm objective simply would not have been there with a 40 or 42 mm lens.

As Aaron and Mac noted, if you're going to use the gun for follow-up work, you'll want to take the scope off or switch to something without a scope. Because of this, having low magnification available isn't really important.

Frankly, I'm convinced that the best gun for lion follow-up may be a Benelli M4 or FN SLP filled with 3" Brenneke Black Magic slugs. Plenty of penetration for cats, and you can have eight very fast shots. Of course, it's not what you'd use for a first shot, and it's not really a practical gun for a client to bring along. Add to that the fact that those guns are push feed, and I'm sure I've lost all credibility.

Another point not mentioned yet is about the illuminated reticle. I have Swarovski's and they gather light amazingly well for low light situations but I was made aware, and later tested this with Brett in my dark garage, that the illumination is visible on the bell end of the scope. In other words the cat may have a chance to see it.

I would use my Dakota 375 H&H with S&B 1.75x6 Zenith Flashdot scope. For a bullet choice I would probably use some of my old stash of trophy bonded bearclaws. If not that bullet, then Nosler Partitions. My close second choice would be a 458 with 400 or 450 grain bullets using the same scope.

Theoretically the exit pupil on a scope will dictate how bright the image is if all else is equel (lens, coatings, etc).
A scope with a 20 mm objective set at 4X will yield a 5mm exit pupil. A 40 mm objective set at 8X yields the same exit pupil; 5mm.
Typically a "young eye" can accept no more light than a 7MM exit pupil will yield; any more is inconsequential. Old eyes (like mine) may open to accept a 5mm exit pupil.
So look at the magnification you may prefer and tailor the objective to match your requirements.
If all you need is 4X and you have older eyes, you probably will not be able to use more than a 20 mm objective offers, however you may benefit from high quality glass.
Good luck on your hunt!

I also prefer a 416 over a 375....I have taken two with a 416 Rigby....have used the Barnes X and Northfork soft. The Northfork has become my favorite soft....both lions died where they stood. Lions are not that hard to kill, but they are very fast, so make the first shot count. All my dangerous game rifles wear Leupold VX-3 1.5-5x haven't found it lacking and they stand up to the recoil.

Heym m55 double rifle (over under! ) 450/400 or in a dream 405 WCF. 2.5-10x56 objective, that way you can use it on 2.5 for stalking and 8x56 for sitting in the blinds at night.

I walked up my lion and shot him from 30yds with my 416 Rigby with an old 3x Leupold. The bullets were 400gr TBBCs and one shot bowled him over, but I gave him another for insurance! If I were doing it again today I'd likely be toting my custom 416 Remington with a Leupold 1.75-6x mounted in Burgess detachable rings. The 350gr TTSX would definitely be the bullet of choice.

quote:

2.5-10x56 objective, that way you can use it on 2.5 for stalking and 8x56 for sitting in the blinds at night.

I don't know about the "stalking" part but you may be able to use it to shoot your lion in Tanzania from your blind in Namibia.

To MJines,

We have been developing bullets with input from Kevin Robertson in .375, .416, and .458 just for this duty. We call them the Percusion Point, or PP. They are relatively the same as our current soft point except for an outer groove that helps the bullet expand almost instantly on impact. For the feline family, shock kills the large cats, unlike the heavy animals (buffs, elephants, rhino, etc). It will not come apart or make a bigger mushroom than our standard bullet and one can still use them on tougher game you will just loose some overall penetration due to the quicker opening. The advantage to this bullet is you will be able to feel what bullet you will load into the gun. While this may not seem like much, but now one will have a tactile confirmation in low/dark light situations, i.e. a blind. If there is much call for the 9.3mm, we can make those as well.

Just another option for you to think about.

Regards,
North Fork

ps. If you call us (541) 929-4016 and mention you are an AR deweller, I will throw in FREE SHIPPING for any order to any AR member.

Wow, that sounds like a great bullet! I've never taken a lion and sadly probably never will, but from everything I've seen, read and heard and just like North Fork alluded to, cats hate speed. I like my buddy John's idea too, 350 TSX at the "speed of heat"

quote:

Originally posted by sandyhunter: As Aaron and Mac noted, if you're going to use the gun for follow-up work, you'll want to take the scope off or switch to something without a scope. Because of this, having low magnification available isn't really important.

My point exactly Sandy! Mike, bring you're .500NE along just in case. Although the likely-hood of its use is highly unlikely.

The .500 with the Docter red dot sight would in fact make an excellent back up rifle. I think I will amend my initial thoughts on the ideal battery to replace the Leupold with a Trijicon 3-9x40 with the standard crosshair with a green dot. I am still leaning towards the TSX bullets since that bullet can be used on anything other than elephant.