quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
It doesn't matter if he was stoned.He is a paying customer on vacation and really not endagering anybody.He is their to have FUN.What is better to have a scotch or a martini and then shoot a buffalo.Everyone probably hates him because he is a minority with money.

Contrary to popular belief, having money and/or being a minority (assuming that either is applicable to the hunter in question)is not justification for being an ass. Also, this is not Disney World, it is a dangerous game area where the hunter by his own admission has shot very poorly, which can certainly endanger this party, and possibly others if he is wounding animals. Further, posting derogatory comments, that apparently are unsupported by the facts, while in camp ON THE SAFARI COMPANY'S INTERNET CONNECTION is moronic at best. This guy is the type that no one wants to share a camp with, or perhaps I'm just not being sensitive enough to his socio-economic status...

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
.Everyone probably hates him because he is a minority with money.

Shootaway,

That is probably the most ignorant idiotic statement I've ever seen on AR. And believe me that is a tall order!

Where do you get the idea that Rich is a minority? Or that he would handle a firearm drunk? You are really reaching on that one!

Nice try at injecting your own political venom into this thread however..

quote:

Originally posted by FE:
I just returned from my first African safari. I was in the same camp as Rich to hunt Leopard and plains game. I arrived there a couple days later than he, after taking a Buffalo in the Chewore Safari Area with Mokore Safaris.

After reading his accounts about his PH Pete, the food and Mokore Safaris in general, I'm appalled. I had exactly the opposite impressions. The staff was highly motivated & professional, the food was outstanding and the hunting exceptional.

The only blemish to my safari experience was having to share time in camp with "the worlds authority on everything".
I tend to dig my heels in when confronted by people who are rude & arrogant, people who enjoy trying to control every situation and trying to control the people around them. People who, in my opinion, drink a little too much. I walked away from every possible confrontational situation because that's what my mama taught me to do. However, after reading what had been written here, I had to put in my two cents worth.

I'm just an average guy who doesn't have alot of money. I had to save a long time to make this trip. All I can say is I'm starting to save in ernest for a return trip to Africa, this time I will take my wife along. I will book my next hunt with Mokore Safaris without any hesitation.

I think that pretty much sums it up. Sucks to see a good PH get a bad report because of a clients problems. Thanks for posting.

I guess by his last name that he is a minority.Do we know for sure that he is stupid enough to be drunk and hunting?I don't feel it is the end of the world if he had a drink or two.You can still drive and have a drink.Then we hear from another hunter that he speaks loud and tries to control everybody.So it might be possible that there is a little bit of prejudice here.I might be wrong though,because I have not heard the other side of the story.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I don't feel it is the end of the world if he had a drink or two. You can still drive and have a drink.

Yeah, you can drink and drive, but it sure isn't what the majority of people consider a smart thing to do. And is illegal in many countries for a good reason.

Handling firearms in DG country under the influence of alcohol certainly isn't very bright either...

quote:

I might be wrong though,because I have not heard the other side of the story.

What other side of the story have you not read? There's a link to the hunters story in the beginning of this thread. And as we have heard the PH's side via others, it seems that both sides are covered.

Hey Erik,you must need some vitamin sunshine living in Oslo.You forgotten how to smile and have fun!

From the other thread:

quote:

One custom built DRC Custom 50 AK, one Blaser .338, one Leupold 1.75X6 scope plus Blaser mount, one Leupold 3X10 scope plus Blaser Mount, one Mad Dog Panther-

Missing in Action; not in South Africa Airline's system.

Are the hunting Gods handing down their own brand or justice???????????

As I said way back at the begining of the thread:

quote:

I think it is safe to say that the PH would have a very diffrent story to tell.

Jason

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Hey Erik,you must need some vitamin sunshine living in Oslo.You forgotten how to smile and have fun!

Shootaway,

If your prior posts were meant "tongue in cheek", then forgive me.

But it seems that I'm not the only one who didn't catch that you were joking.

I am not quite following this. What was the client up to? Was he hunting while drunk, while high on local weed, or both?

500-

I think the basic jist of this thread is that a hunter reports a less than totally satisfactory hunt, the report gets labeled horrible, and the witchhunt begins. Malaria medicines affecting the mind, egos run amuck, a queer ph, alcohol, poor weapon choice, PMS, rubber buffaloes, hidden agendas, Karma, the War in Iraq, aliens, (eventually...), you know, fun on the internet!

quote:

Originally posted by PWS:
500-

I think the basic jist of this thread is that a hunter reports a less than totally satisfactory hunt, the report gets labeled horrible, and the witchhunt begins. Malaria medicines affecting the mind, egos run amuck, a queer ph, alcohol, poor weapon choice, PMS, rubber buffaloes, hidden agendas, Karma, the War in Iraq, aliens, (eventually...), you know, fun on the internet!

You forgot to add that it all boils down to being GWB's fault.

I've done two trips to the Mokore camp. Took wonderful trophies on their concessions. The food and accomodations are good and the area is outstanding. I had a great time!
I doubt the Duckworths nor Pete Fick will get on the web to let us know the "other side of the story." Professionals don't publicly discuss their clients, good or bad. People who have experience with Mokore Safaris are the only ones who can defend or condemn them as safari onperators. My vote: Thumbs up!

Erik:

Of course, it's GWB's fault! Can there be any doubt about it? Hugo Chavez of Venezuela said from a UN podium just today that he smelled the sulfur of the devil from the same podium that GWB spoke from the day before. Details ruined that hunt and everyone knows that the devil is in the details!

If the outfitter was "professional" then they should not have a PH under factual emotional distress deal with customers who are out to spend their money, on vacation looking for a good time.Like that song says "smile or you will bring everybody down".It seems the poster is feelig sad because he "doesn't have a lot of money and he is an average guy".Imagine going on vacation staying at a family run hotel and being told not to drink and have fun because the family has just lost a loved one.Then if you do smoke a cigar have a drink and laugh,you get a slap on the head by the waiter or clerk.I believe it is the family that should be apologizing if they are a little too serious.There is also no mention that the hunter was intoxicated or ill by any one on the hunt.If he was why would they go along hunting with him?

Shootaway,

I guess then based on your opinion and feelings towards the subject you are free to not hunt with Makore. Beyond that what difference does it make to you personally?

I have not hunted with Makore personally but know several people who have. I also have met Mr. Duckworth and have nothing but glowing reports about him and his company.

You see, I've heard Mr. Lucibella (Rich) bitch about his last hunt in Tanzania as well. There seems to be no pleasing this man. The only place he's been happy hunting in Africa was at a game farm in the RSA. In Tanzania he didn't like the PH he said the Ph didn't know the area, didn't know what he was doing etc, etc, etc.

My personal opinion of the man is that he is a spoiled rotten brat who drinks too much. Rich is absolutely beyond taking advice and is inconsolable when he is in one of his little pissy moods. Which as far as I can tell is most of the time that he isn't drinking.

Things are always so much better after a few stiff drinks don't ya know?

I really don't think Makore should get a bad rap based on this characters hunt report. I know nothing of the PH in question however and suspect that he is not entirely innocent either. I would really like to hear the rest of the story.

It could be that Rich is a spoiled trouble maker and brought on everything.In the end I was not there and have little to draw conclusions with.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by GS:
The story starts on page 2, Rich L is the author, and his narrative is certainly intresting. If you read it, thinking about someone with certain substance problems, it REALLY starts to make sense.
Then the bad shooting, being pushed around, and not being able to see the animals start to make sense...

GS

GS,are your saying the hunter is a hash smoker?

No.
GS

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
It could be that Rich is a spoiled trouble maker and brought on everything.In the end I was not there and have little to draw conclusions with.

Nor were any of us. But the part that raises my hackles is one of the finest operators on the continent Mr. Barry Duckworth is getting slammed. I'd really like to hear their side of the story.

Especially considering the source.

Surestrike, Check your mail...

GS

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
If the outfitter was "professional" then they should not have a PH under factual emotional distress deal with customers who are out to spend their money, on vacation looking for a good time.Like that song says "smile or you will bring everybody down".It seems the poster is feelig sad because he "doesn't have a lot of money and he is an average guy".Imagine going on vacation staying at a family run hotel and being told not to drink and have fun because the family has just lost a loved one.Then if you do smoke a cigar have a drink and laugh,you get a slap on the head by the waiter or clerk.I believe it is the family that should be apologizing if they are a little too serious.There is also no mention that the hunter was intoxicated or ill by any one on the hunt.If he was why would they go along hunting with him?

Where in the information presented, was this EVER presented? You just brought a bunch of issues to the table that where never put anywhere in the prior postings, or in the original discriptions. It sure is amazing how this guy has his rifle sited in one minute on a pack of cigerettes, and, the next, can't hit a cape buffalo, eland, etc. broadside to him. At least he admitted he made terrible shots. Another factor he puts in his writings is he CONSISTENTLY made POOR SHOT SELECTION CHOICES. This guy prides himself on being responsible for every shot he takes, yet consistently makes bad shots. WHY?? Now if he would just admit that his choice of a heavy caliber rifle was the same mistake many made with the early 458 and 45-70, we'd make some progress.

When was the PH under 'factual emontional distress', other then dealing with a hunter that brought a cowboy gun on a dangerous game hunt?

By the way, the ONLY side we have to this story is Rich L's, since he's the only one writing, knowing that a professional company does not divulge information about their clients, good or bad, on a hunt.

I'm also a bit curious how the staff would know if the hunter was loaded? Break out the breathalyzer, and have him blow into it? Take a blood test? One thing NOT at issue is that African hunts are expensive, and, as an employee, I would certainly NOT want to be the one to not take a client out, based on his being loaded, since their is no firm proof.

No, this is not a fun situation for the company at hand, and, the one sided presentation by Mr. Rich L. is certainly half the story.

GS

GS, I rest my case until further evidence.I am not saying the company did anything wrong.Nothing has happened that would make me not want to hunt with them.I am just discussing an incident or experience posted by a hunter on the link you supplied.

There is no case.

My only real horse in this is if it was the PH, and the company, I did not want to go with them, or, sign with them, in 2008.

By posting this, I've found that about 99% of the people that have hunted with these people are happy with the experience.

Mr. Rich L. was not one of them. That's fine. I found out what I needed to know about the situation.

I know what NOT to do on a dangerous game hunt, and, what rifles NOT to bring... Also the entire English vs. American snobbery issue is brought back on the table, with jolting reality.

Now at least, I will go in with both eyes open to a safari.

My experience in Barbados with English folks was similar to Rich's view of the camp. We were treated as lower class by a bunch of British snobs, folks that had inherited wealth, and traded wives and husbands like trading cards( they had essentially swapped wives, and, all their children where there, really weird. They were also hammered on rum, the entire time, starting very early in the morning.) because I guess being American lawyers, lawyers are considered lower class in England, but, I'm not real sure of that. They certainly made us feel law was a lower class profession, but, in retrospect, I think WORK was for the lower class with them.
It's been a long time since anyone treated me as a lower class, and it was one hell of a shock.

We responded in kind. My SO's famous line that ended our interaction was,

"Well, at least we have good teeth!!!"

This after much rum and champagne on vacation, for 2000, on New Years Night.

My concern with Richs rifle selection is the same that happens in this forum: first, there is a standard, long established, for adequate dangerous game rifles. Use something else, and, you get 400 guys telling you 40,000 stories about their experiences, and, you can either learn from that, or not. In a camp, I could well see a snotty PH looking down his nose, in particular if he's British, and sneering at the low class American for bringing such a piece of junk, or junks.

The insisting on solids was certainly not new, but, I thought, after reading so much here, that Softs, like the Barnes X, etc. were accepted in Africa. It's not clear if what Rich brought in softs, but maybe they weren't a standard accepted bullet.

I try and argue both sides of the situation, and, in this one, we have a wash as far as I'm concerned. Rich's libel of
the PH and Safari company isn't likely to affect their business, since they have such support from customers that contradict
his version of the story.

It is pretty clear that he had a REALLY bad experience there. My last serious vacation, Barbados, also got off to a bad start, due to such stuff that I mentioned, and, it was much easier to handle drinking rum. I can certainly sympathize with the situation. We were in a situation where we could tell the Brits to take a hike, and ignore them. Plenty of other nice folks to talk to. On safari, with a PH, that may not be possible.

Our vacation was saved by some sort of Barbados/CIA group that first, bailed us out of a VERY dangerous situation at night,
and, put us up in one of the nicest hotels on the island, in suites designed just for such situations. If not for them, we'd still be sleeping on our bags at the Barbados airport, waiting for it to reopen. They also meet us for breakfast, for the 27 days we stayed in Barbados, every morning, and looked after us.

Rich may not have been so lucky, and, the fact that he felt it was so bad, as wanting to leave early, makes me think he faced some sort of real trauma. It may have been his trauma, but, wanting to leave early is a big warning sign, at least to me.

Overall, it looks like a REAL bloody mess, and, sometimes you just have situations that come out that way. Feeling bitter, after spending that much money, might also prevoke me to remember selectively, and, limit the story to the bad parts.

I've played Devil's advocate on both sides in this thread, and, found both sides have their story, and, other people have different views then Richs.

That's fine. I'll NEVER take a lever gun to Africa, unless it's chambered in 458 Lott, or 500 A2...

GS

Every PH has had difficult clients before and the skills to handle them is something we all learn- up to a point! Pete was in the difficult position of being a regular PH with the company and therefore forced to “do his best†for the company - ie try and ignore the problem and get the client his trophies.

It is one of the blessings of being a free lance PH- one can simply walk out on such people. I have done so. A PH doesn’t earn enough to put up with unsafe clients or A grade oxygen thieves. When I was younger, I belted a couple of clients for unsafe gun handling, but now I am older and wiser I have learned simply to walk away. Pete was sadly not in a position to respond appropriately to the clients behaviour.

GS- Pete is very definately not a brit and not anti American! Very few brits at all in southern Africa! Nationality, colour or social background have nothing whatsoever to do with whether somebody is a jerk or not!

quote:

Originally posted by GS:
There is no case.

The insisting on solids was certainly not new, but, I thought, after reading so much here, that Softs, like the Barnes X, etc. were accepted in Africa. It's not clear if what Rich brought in softs, but maybe they weren't a standard accepted bullet.

GS

The soft points were 510 gr bonded core Ak Bullets Works soft points.

GS, The English aren't the only ones to find lawyers to be low class scum suckers..

Not really all that relevant to African Hunting...
I can't speak for "Brits" in Barbados, but I've never been exposed to any Snobbery from their upper classes -- some occasional humourous comments about being Colonists (but, I'm a Texan, and and Aggie at that, so I'm used to far worst at the hands of Yankees, and a certain university of evil.)and lawyers have a MUCH better reputation in England than the US -- better at policing their own behavior.

quote:

Originally posted by GS:
Also the entire English vs. American snobbery issue is brought back on the table, with jolting reality.

Huh? I thought Mr. Fick and Mr. Duckworth were Zimbabwean, not English.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

quote:

Originally posted by GS:
Also the entire English vs. American snobbery issue is brought back on the table, with jolting reality.

Huh? I thought Mr. Fick and Mr. Duckworth were Zimbabwean, not English.

I must have missed this too.

GS,

Where in this thread is the so-called snobbery evident?

I'm a little confused.

African hunting with British hosts in Barbados?

Or has the thread gone completely off-topic with completely irrelevant experiences.

For all who are having difficulty understanding,read Rich's hunting experience posted by GS on the first post,and then all other posts.

Something happened to the client to make him want to leave a Safari early. That indicates he was VERY upset, about something, don't know what it was, and, just putting it on the table. Given the responses, I gather, from people I REALLY respect, like Ganyana, that the reality of the situation was far different from Rich's perception. Doesn't matter however, that was his perception. He felt he was mistreated, etc. and that explains
his rather bias postings of the experience. I just used the race issue, because of how in my travels, I got blindsided by these Brits, not expecting it. It was easier to deal with the thieves, and drug runners, standing at the top of the hill we needed to go over, with machetes, then the Brits. We KNEW why the rastas wanted to get us, money and cameras.
Different countries, different races, develop different social mores, and, learning what they are can be a traumatic experience. Perhaps Rich was going through just such an experience.

Great thing about the net is, you bring up an issue, and you get feedback.

"GS- Pete is very definately not a brit and not anti American! Very few brits at all in southern Africa! Nationality, colour or social background have nothing whatsoever to do with whether somebody is a jerk or not!"

That's an excellent example of what I'm talking about. I don't have first hand knowledge of this company, but, I can't get a better second hand source then that. Clears that picture up for me.

Picture in my mind is I see a weird bird, Rich, in a camp, and not getting along with folks. Brings weird rifles, sort of like bringing a knife to a gun fight, and, then can't shoot them, at animals. Something else is going on, because others in the thread have said this guy is an experienced hunter, who has hunted more then most people on the board. I gather his shooting hasn't ever been a problem before, but, I may be wrong on that. Surestrike would know. Rich goes out, buggers up time after time, comes back, tells everyone, and after awhile, they all think he's got a serious problem. That experience makes him feel isolated, alone, and, he has no one but Jack Daniels to confide in, at that point. Does that affect his shooting, judgement? In Barbados I KNOW a couple of those Brits woke up on Friday, after starting drinking Monday, and didn't remember anything inbetween, since I talked to em. Wonder when, and how, drink affected Rich over there? Only he can answer that, maybe...


One other line in Rich's postings that really got me going was he said one of Pete's trackers was killed, when Pete didn't
even have a rifle in his hands. I find that VERY hard to believe, and, it's not been brought up.

Anyone know how Pete lost his tracker, and did he really have another get tossed, or, did this even happen?

I've never heard of AK Bullet Works, and I'm in Kali. How would Pete know if they worked or not? The more I look at this, Rich brought stuff that made him seem like a joke to his PH. African hunting has a certain set of time trusted mores, for bullets, rifles, etc. and Rich made ALL the wrong choices...

If I was putting my life on the line, I don't think I'd want someone shooting a buff with a round likely to just piss him off, and, then I have to go chase him down???

Not a very pretty picture...

GS

Pete did loose his tracker earlier this year-killed by an elephant- And while the police may have ruled it "death by missadventure" it must still sit badly as he goes through the "what should I have done" in his mind.

There have been two people killed this year by elephants in zim- petes tracker and an Italian client. In both cases they were close to the vehicle, not hunting elephant and the rifles were in the rack on the back of the truck. Pete and the client had just got off the truck to shoot a warthog and pete had the shooting sticks in his hands and the client a .243. When there is an angry elephant or buff in the picture 50 yards is too far.

Considering the rifle in use was marginal the use of solids was probably a wise precaution

The best to be hoped for is that "Rich" is so pissed-off he will never go back to Africa. Then everyone will be happy.

Alaska Bullet Works, Inc
P.O. Box 54, Douglas, Alaska 99824

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
Pete did loose his tracker earlier this year-killed by an elephant- And while the police may have ruled it "death by missadventure" it must still sit badly as he goes through the "what should I have done" in his mind.

There have been two people killed this year by elephants in zim- petes tracker and an Italian client. In both cases they were close to the vehicle, not hunting elephant and the rifles were in the rack on the back of the truck. Pete and the client had just got off the truck to shoot a warthog and pete had the shooting sticks in his hands and the client a .243. When there is an angry elephant or buff in the picture 50 yards is too far.

Considering the rifle in use was marginal the use of solids was probably a wise precaution

Thanks. .50 Alaskan, over here anyway, kills with about the same affect as a .375 H&H, with solids. It's a lot like the pistols, 500 JRH that have been used to take bison, and asian buffalo: 440 grain bullets, LFNs, at between 1100-1350, or my little pistol, 525 510 grain bullets, at 1350 fps. Not stoppers, but end to end on bison, and a nice wound channel: art to follow.









I'm wondering if Pete didn't go off the deep end because it was a lever action, for one. Second, he may never have heard of the cartridge. Third never heard of the soft bullet maker. Fourth been thinking about the elephant stepping out while you are hunting warthog.

I guess this brings up my next question:
I was considering using my CZ 550, in 375 H&H.
Now, after reading about getting stomped by mad elephants, Ganyana, wouldn't it be better to be prepared for the worst all the time?
375 isn't a stopper, but, it easily rechambers and barrels, to 458 Lott. You mentioned getting Barnes X bullets to near 3000 fps somewhere else.
For elephant hunting, and general all around hunting, would you use a soft first, in 458 Lott? Does that whack an angry elephant enough to keep you from getting stomped? Would the 350 grain Barnes X penetrate enough to kill, or turn an elephant?

How feasible would it be to hunt EVERYTHING with either Barnes X bullets, or solids, loaded in the 2150-2200 fps range, out of a 458 lott?

Any other suggestions on general rifles, and angry elephants?
Thanks
GS
PS: These shots are compliments of Jack Huntington, the originator of the 500 JRH revolver round.

PPS
these bullets don't look like junk, either.

http://www.wildwestguns.com/Ammunition/body_ammunition.html

Read the safari exploits... too bad the client and the ph butted heads.. sounds like a case of bad chemistry...

If I had had a guy miss the zera shot, I would be worried, too...

but If a ph grabbed me around and shoved me into places, I would discuss it ONCE and then would be on my way back to camp the next time, asking for a new PC.


most things are negotiable... but you DO have to talk about them

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:

A grade oxygen thieves.

Brilliant phrase! I must remember that one.

Interesting.

Rich spends page after page describing his own shortcomings in agonizing detail, yet some of you think that he's got an agenda to blame others??

If he's honest enough to describe his own less-than-perfect moments, why won't people who don't know either party take at face value his assessment of other details?

Friends, I'm a hunter, and I love hunting stories. I'd like to read more here. But if y'all are going to dogpile a hunter who gives an account as he sees it, what's the incentive to discuss and learn?

Frankly, I could sit down and tell you about how I stalked a fine hog up last year and took it at 40 paces with my Super Blackhawk, killing it with one shot.
...I could, only it would belie the facts, which were: that I got burned, the hogs ran, I threw a bad shot after one of the boars with my rifle, and I never cut hair.
Does the first story sound more triumphant? Maybe, but after a while, tales that end with "One shot, and he dropped, graveyard dead" end up getting a little old, inasmuch as they're usually not true. And we learn nothing.

I know at least one guy posting here who's posted his own "oops" on an elk last year (on another site), and I really respected him for it. Difference was, no one there slammed him for it.

Best regards,

Matt G.

Matt G

What's beautiful about this thread is you can see mistakes you don't ever want to make. You can also see situations, in this case, created by elephants, that are not part of the normal hunting experience, and, how they affected the PH, and, the hunter.

Also, we don't really have an answer for the bad shooting. Too light a rifle, too much recoil, no practice, pressure by the PH, etc.?

I think in this case the hunter doesn't even see he screwed up, and, I think there are other factors he had no control over. There are also some he did, and made worse.

Rich passes judgement on Pete, when Pete tells him to use nothing but solids, and, blames Pete for lost game, due to the hunters using only solids. He doesn't give credence to the threat of getting caught by an elephant, with a 338 in your hand, with a soft in it, and being dead.

Rich also shoots really poorly, something he's not known for, and, why did that happen?

Rich may describe those situations, but he never really looks at the cause. Too much coffee in the morning? Too many late, hard nights?

Being badgered by a pro hunter that thinks you brought a lever knife to a gun fight?

Rich insists the big rifle he brought is adequate,but, he can't shoot it well, or doesn't.

What would you do, in a camp, with the situation described??

I learned a ton from this thread, and, for that, and everyone here, I'm thankful.

sincerely

GS

Matt,

I have not slammed Riches shooting or his weapon choice or bullet choices. I've seen Rich shoot and know that he is a capable rifleman. I do not know what went wrong on this hunt in regards to his shooting. Anyone on this sight, if they'd be honest with themselves, can find an example of plain old poor shooting in there past from time to time.

What bothers me is that I have recently and personally seen a side of the man that is shockingly out of character from the person I used to know. I believe that he has developed a problem that has drastically changed his personality in the last year.

I simply can not swallow some of his statements in regards to Makore safaris. And having seen his ugly side first hand, recently, and heard some of the comments he's made in regards to some of his other hunting misadventures, there is no doubt in my mind that he is not faultless in this one. It saddens me to say that I have a completely different opinion of the man than I did just one year ago.

Surestrike

(AKA H&Hhunter)

surestrike,can you describe the ugly side a little more.Was it a strong oppinion, foul language,jumping up and down?Personally, I find people who prefer "quite people" annoying.Or people who are not very sociable or don't enjoy conversation.What I can't stand most are people who take a side and stick to that even though it is clear that they are wrong(not meaning you or anyone here).