I will say from reading this again, that it appears Pete's agenda, and hunting plans,where based on the World Cup Soccer finals, more then his obligations to his hunters.

I've scene soccer hooligans before, and, it's worse then any alcohol, or it's coupled with, alcohol addiction...

I think Rich needs to use bigger caliber rifles, with less pressure. His .416 remington would have been perfect, if loaded to 40 psi, with 400 grain bullets, at 2300 fps. He could have easily taken everything, and, with Pete's required solids...
From his comments, the ammo he had was max loaded for his .50 ak, and, instead of 460's, he should use 525's at lower pressure, and velocity.
The big bullets will go through any asian buffalo, or bison, end to end, and probably 5-6 foot hole in an elephant, as well.

British had it right in the first place for Africa: big case, heavy bullet, moderate velocity, low pressure, aka the original 375 H&H, the 416 rigby, and, all the Nitro Express cartridges...

GS

PS
While we all are reaming Rich for his shooting, how about Pete's missing a water buck, at 15 yards, with a 470 Nitro Express? Rich is not the only one not shooting well... Also, what were the bullet placements on the
buff with the 470 Nitro? They didn't stop him, either...

quote:

Originally posted by GS:
Matt G

What's beautiful about this thread is you can see mistakes you don't ever want to make. You can also see situations, in this case, created by elephants, that are not part of the normal hunting experience, and, how they affected the PH, and, the hunter.

Also, we don't really have an answer for the bad shooting. Too light a rifle, too much recoil, no practice, pressure by the PH, etc.?

I think in this case the hunter doesn't even see he screwed up, and, I think there are other factors he had no control over. There are also some he did, and made worse.

Rich passes judgement on Pete, when Pete tells him to use nothing but solids, and, blames Pete for lost game, due to the hunters using only solids. He doesn't give credence to the threat of getting caught by an elephant, with a 338 in your hand, with a soft in it, and being dead.

Rich also shoots really poorly, something he's not known for, and, why did that happen?

Rich may describe those situations, but he never really looks at the cause. Too much coffee in the morning? Too many late, hard nights?

Being badgered by a pro hunter that thinks you brought a lever knife to a gun fight?

Rich insists the big rifle he brought is adequate,but, he can't shoot it well, or doesn't.

What would you do, in a camp, with the situation described??

I learned a ton from this thread, and, for that, and everyone here, I'm thankful.

sincerely

GS

I think there are two people here with two distinctly different personalities that is easy to see at a glance at either oftheir posts. These two represent most posting here!

Let's say each of you are on extreme opposite ends of this discussion.

One makeing assesments on suposition, with little real personal information of this particular person, RICH, or the company involved.

The other from a base of personal acquaintance with the client hunter, and though not a personal acqaintance with the PH, does have personal knowledge of the company's reputation, and business practices.

Considering both takes on the discussion, I believe GShas hit the nail on the head with one hammer blow! These things don't have to go into a kangaroo court, trying to decide which is right, and which is wrong, but used to learn several things from strings like this without hurting one side or the other, with no real evidence either way!

I too know some of the people involved, and I too have my opinion on who is MOST at fault for the poor outcome of this safari, but since I was not present, I will not state that opinion publicly. We saw one of these things get completely out of hand last year, and we all suffered from the result of that hangman's rope, no matter which side we were on. It is my sencere hope this dosen't turn out the same way.
.....................

Thanks MacD37

I've said my piece to Rich about his rifle selections, and caliber choices. What doesn't come through in the thread is Pete appears to be totally unwilling to change his plans for the two clients he's guiding, to accomodate the client's wishes.
Both wanted to start shooting smaller game, as sort of a warmup, and to get used to thier new hunting area. Pete wanted to start with cape buffalo, perhaps in the hope of getting the biggest trophy possible for his clients, or, finishing early, so he could take off the final day off to watch the World Cup Soccer MATCHES????hmmmmmm.

It becomes quite apparent that each had experience, and an agenda, and, that niether was happy about bending it. In fact, Pete was pretty much totally inflexible, a weird situation for someone guiding people who paid 30k for the experience. 3 HUNTERS, PAY 30K EACH FOR 15 DAYS, AND YOU CAN'T LISTEN TO THEM????

Rich is at that point in hunting where he's managed to use marginal caliber rifles in Africa, and get away with it, due to good shot placement in the past. Due to being uncomfortable, and rushed, by his PH in this case, his shooting was a bit off, THIS TRIP. Odds caught up with him.

When I review this thing, Pete's shooting REALLY sucked. He didn't stop the cape buffalo with the .470 Nitro, and 4 shots.
OK: Buffalo have been known to take such hits. BUT A WATERBUCK, AT 15 YARDS, WITH A BROKEN LEG, AND YOU MISS IT THREE TIMES?????
THAT'S HORRIBLE SHOOTING FOR A PRO HUNTER. Makes me wonder if the bank of questions I asked Rich should have been asked of Pete, as well. Too much coffee in the morning? Starting to get reference recoil nerve damage? Too much whiskey and beer, watching the soccer matches, prior to the hunt? Your Nitro Express a bit much for you??? etc.

It appears that being an inflexible ass, which ever side deserves to wear that hat, is not proper for client, or PH.

I think Ganyana had this one right: Rich should have walked the first day of hunting, and asked for a new PH. If Pete
was so unwilling to accomodate the hunters, he should have asked to be replaced. It's clear niether did themselves any favors by going on with this hunt, except Pete, he did get paid, and, got the final day off to watch soccer...

GS
PS
From Saeed in a thread about best hunters:
Saeed
Administrator

Posted 20 September 2006 08:33
In general, Zimbabwe.

Some of the worst, in South Africa.

This is probably due to the fact that Zimbabwe has what might be the toughest requirement for being a PH.

And South Africa has, by comparison, some of the easiest.

Hey Mac and GS, Iam sorry but I'll have to flunk you on that.Lack of study being the reason.Go back to the first post and read the text.

quote:

Originally posted by Savage99:
After speed reading about half of the report it seems that the customer has done some very poor shooting. The buffalo was hit behind the diaphram. There was no report if the liver was hit or an artery or not.

It could well be that the PH is a difficult person also. I have not read his story at this point. To be frank I am not enjoying the story and am glad I am here at home.

I read some more thru part of page 3 and I find the relationship between the hunter and PH very unusual. First of all that the PH touches the hunter or as he says pulls him to this spot or position. To be frank nobody touches me without my permission. Safety aside something is unknown here.

I find this story quite painful to read and I am done with it.

I'm actually with Don on this one.
We've beat this buffalo to death, then shot it about 6 times with a .470 Nitro, in the wrong places.

The real crime was the poor shooting done, caused by Pete, with the hunter Rich, and, followed up by Pete.

Frankly, if my life is on the line, I want a better shooting PH then Pete....

Wish Rich would have done this, prior to the safari:
"had wanted to blood the 50 AK with Buff. That's been done. Next time: My Blaser .416 with world class iron sights and quick release scope. First shot with the scope. If a follow up stalk is necessary, the scope comes off in less then 5 seconds. I don't ever intend a follow-up stalk on Cape Buffalo; but then, we never do."

I think he had a far better rifle for buffalo then the 50 AK, and, I hope he listens to his own advice...

GWS
Still, excellent looking buffalo...but ugly looking bastards with the guns... Maybe that's the problem... fag, er, fashion conflicts???

Just out of curiousity, how do we know that Pete shot it poorly? Because it absorbed lots of lead??

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
Just out of curiousity, how do we know that Pete shot it poorly? Because it absorbed lots of lead??

Can't kill a Waterbuck, at 15 yards, with 4 shots, from a 470 NE, with a broken leg on the waterbuck? Guess African game now wear Class 4 Kevlar vests????

GWS

quote:

Originally posted by GS:


The real crime was the poor shooting done, caused by Pete, with the hunter Rich, and, followed up by Pete.

How could the PH cause the client to shoot poorly??? The client is solely responsible for whether he pulls the trigger, and for where the rifle is aimed when the trigger is pulled. If the PH says to shoot and the client feels he cannot place his bullet properly, then it is up to the client to exercise his jugment as a responsible adult to wait for a better shot.

I also notice that the client in the photo above is wearing Danner boots, also known as the noisiest walking boots ever invented. clomp, clomp, clomp, clomp. Is that a Tennessee walking horse that I hear?

and why are those boots noisy?He doesn't have 4 legs like a horse and he is not walking on a concrete or wooden floor.There is more chance for error when not using a scope.How could the PH take no blame when he is encouraging the hunter to shoot through the branches or grass.I agree the hunter is responsible but should not take the full rap.

When you just look at the trophies, the huge buffalo, and the experiences, without all the other stuff, it was a hunt to remember, and successful.

I think I'd focus on the good stuff that came out of this hunt, and, I think, that out weighs the bad.

Also, I'm certainly learning a lot of what to do, and not to do...

NOISY BOOTS???
Now I know why Pete was saying be quiet...

GS

quote:

Originally posted by GS:

I think Rich needs to use bigger caliber rifles, with less pressure. His .416 remington would have been perfect, if loaded to 40 psi, with 400 grain bullets, at 2300 fps. He could have easily taken everything, and, with Pete's required solids...
From his comments, the ammo he had was max loaded for his .50 ak, and, instead of 460's, he should use 525's at lower pressure, and velocity.

GS

PS
While we all are reaming Rich for his shooting, how about Pete's missing a water buck, at 15 yards, with a 470 Nitro Express? Rich is not the only one not shooting well... Also, what were the bullet placements on the
buff with the 470 Nitro? They didn't stop him, either...

GS,

I've said all I'm going to say about the hunter involved but I've just got to know...
How is a .416 a "larger" caliber than a .510 caliber .50 Alaskan?

You must mean a more powerful caliber, right?

By the way good point on the PH's shooting sounds as if he may be a bit off practice. Probably one the many that I meet in Africa with a big Nitro gun and no way to shoot it enough for lack of money for ammo.

My obvious question is why the hunter didn't simply demand a new PH. If he wasn't happy with the food why didn't he talk to some one and have the menu modified? These things should be simple tasks with the most minor communication. If he was unhappy with the hunt why not just call Barry and work it out instead of a public thrashing on his personal internet sight?

I'm afraid at this point there will be no reconciliation as feelings have been hurt jabs have been taken and the damage is done to both sides.

TJ

I've spoken with a couple of .50 AK dudes as in the dudes.
There isn't any frigging way that you are getting a 570gr bullet moving at 2000 FPS out of a .50 AK. If that is what your chrono read, it is giving bogus data. What brand bullet did you find in a 570gr that feeds in your rifle and has any powder capacity left over?

Shootaway,

If you are really interested in specifics you should ask Rich yourself. I've said more than I should have and yes I am still pissed off over the incident, which obviously shows in my statements.

Surestrike,I am not really interested.All I am saying is that if the story given by Rich is a correct one and not given another so I can seriously criticize his,besides a poster simply saying I know him and he is a mean man,another saying his gun is not big enough,and another, he can't shoot good,then I somewhat believe his story.

Surestrike:

It's ironic that they named it the Alaskan, since it's a TINY case. It's only 2.090" long!! It's not a full magnum, 2.85" magnum case, like the 416. From my reloading book, with a 525 grain bullet, your max load is 63 grains of bench mark. That's a LONG way from a real magnum case, like the 416 Remmington, which fits 88 grains of H4350, with a 400 grain bullet. The .50 Alaskan really reminds me of a long pistol cartridge, and, in a BFR, it works very well for that. Or, worse, it's a shorter, fatter, abortion of the 458 win mag, making all the same mistakes over, and, a few new ones. Funny people try the same stuff with this cartridge
as they did with the 458 win mag, but, at least with modern powders and good bullets, we can actually hit the design point of the 458 win mag, 500 grain bullets, at 2150 fps. The .50 Alaskan has NO hope of getting to the Holy Grail, but, people make the same mistake, again, and, decrease it's penetration by increasing caliber...

I kind of get the feeling Rich was blind sided by the entire experience. From looking at it long range, it looks like Pete wasn't real intrested in their hunt, and, was more intrested in the World Cup Soccer matches.

Problem with this sort of thing is sometimes the options aren't there. Leaving early wasn't even an option, and, from what is posted, he tried that.

Funny part about the .50 Alaskan is it DOES like bullet weight. From a 460 to 525 grain bullet, the velocity may fall a couple hundred feet, but, it does still move the big bullets at 1750 or so, not bad at all. 570's are what should be used in a .500 caliber rifle, or , 510, IIRC, for penetration. But, what velocity do you get?

I suppose you could near double the pressure, and move it into the 60k range, from 35k, if you have a ruger one or something. That's the only way I see that kind of velocity. David Clay's rifles are really strong, aren't they? What kind of pressure can they take??? I suspect this cartridge, in a proper rifle, can be loaded to very high pressures. Buffalobore sure is getting high velocities, in his loads.

The funny part is I think Rich thinks the .50 Alaskan is some sort of 'logical progression' from the 45-70. Yes, it repeats, and amplifies the failings of that cartridge, and, makes them worse. Slow the bullet down more, make it bigger, and even make it a hair shorter, which, makes for non-dangerous game cartridge even more so...

SS, I also suspect that Rich may have tried to address the issues involved, with no result, hence to posting on the net.

Who knows???

One thing is for sure, despite all the mudslinging, Rich and Pete nailed a big buffalo.

No harm really done to the hunting company, or to Pete. In fact, look at all the added publicity, and positive feedback has been posted by this thread, and the other one? I'd never heard of Pete, or the hunting company, until Rich was nice enough to post the thread. I've learned a ton of things not to do, and, some things to do.

One thing that I do get is use enough gun. Using what I consider stunt guns, 45-70 and .50 Alaskan lever actions, with the 'assurance' that the PH will clean up your mess with a stopper certainly wasn't a good idea in this situation. How many other PH's might have Nitro Express rifles they can't shoot, or, other calibers?
No, I think you better bring a rifle up to what you are shooting, not some sort of trick gun, and, as 500Grains has said, make SURE of your shots, prior. Hunt like you have no backup, and, you are the one that's got to go after the buffalo.

The funny part is I think these guys actually think the .50 Alaskan is superior to the 375 H&H, forgetting the wound channel size, and penetration the 375 brings with it.

It doesn't take much to just follow what everyone else has been using for ages in Africa.
It may not be creative, but, I think it's expected. Sort of the social mores' of Africa hunting, and, failing to follow them seems to have a bad effect on your hunting experience...

GS

I was going to let this thread die on the vine, but I was asked a couple question so I will try to answer them.
surestrike:
You said...."I've spoken with a couple of .50 AK dudes as in the dudes." Could you splain to me what that means?
The next time I use my elcheapo chronograph and get a reading, I'll be sure to contact you so you can correct it for me.

If you V E R Y C A R E F U L L Y read all the above post, you will see that I used 570 Grain Kodiak bullet, manufactured by Alaska Bullet Works Inc, P.O. Box 54, Douglas, Alaska 99824.
There is enough room in the case for 54 grains of IMR 4198.
If you need any more assistance in your lack of reading comprehension, please let me know. I'm not an English teacher, but I'll help if I can.
PS.
How many .50 Alaskans do you own? How many have you shot?

Well TJ, you bring up a REALLY intresting case for this thread. The .50 Alaskan with heavy bullets. First off, my compliments on the bullet choice. With a .50 Caliber bullet, it seems the industry standard for adequate penetration is a 570 grain solid, which you are using, unlike the hunter in this thread, who used a light for caliber, 460 grain solid.

Now, much like many pistol cartridges, the .50 Alaskan shines with heavy bullets.
From Hogden, 2006 using H4198, the powder you are using are the following, in a 22" barrel, 2 in 20, and CCI 200 Primer:
Bullet weight first, number of grains second, and velocity third, pressure fourth:
435gr LFN/GC 62 grains 2089 fps 35.5K
450 BARFP 56 grains 1940 35.3k
500 gr JFP 55 grains 1854 fps 34.5K
525 GR LFN/GC 55 grains 1852 fps 34.8k
and, TJ's load
570 GR Kod 54 grains 2000 fps ?

Does that make much sense? No. Is it possible?
Perhaps, with a match grade barrel, and, perhaps the 570 adds enough resistance to get that extra 150 fps??? Do I think that's likely???

As for the english teacher part....

Anyway, one issue I noticed for the poor shooting might be the hunter's eyesite. He's got glasses on in one or two pictures, and off in the others. Wonder if this could have affected his hunting skills, and, his ability to see game? If so, maybe he should have used a scope, or remembered his glasses???

Wonder if he needs glasses to see and shoot, at normal ranges??? Don't know...

GS