Hi all.

I just got done reading a pretty bad experience in Zim, here. Rich L. is the hunter,so for short skimming, just look for his hunting notes. It's a very good read.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220362

I'm kind of curious how you can avoid running into this PH, "Pete", and, what a first time African hunter should do to avoid such a result, other then not taking a 50 Alaskan lever gun.

GS

After speed reading about half of the report it seems that the customer has done some very poor shooting. The buffalo was hit behind the diaphram. There was no report if the liver was hit or an artery or not.

It could well be that the PH is a difficult person also. I have not read his story at this point. To be frank I am not enjoying the story and am glad I am here at home.

I read some more thru part of page 3 and I find the relationship between the hunter and PH very unusual. First of all that the PH touches the hunter or as he says pulls him to this spot or position. To be frank nobody touches me without my permission. Safety aside something is unknown here.

I find this story quite painful to read and I am done with it.

Very nice buff.

What planet do these guys come from?

I think it is safe to say that the PH would have a very diffrent story to tell.

Jason

I figured the PH took one look at the 50 Alaskan lever gun, and went ballistic.

On the otherhand, if someone is grabbing you to line you up to shoot,....

GS

Another thread on this topic:

buff hunt

If the PH is Pete Fick, I would have to say that this is not his typical behavior. I can't help but wonder if there are some other details of this interaction that have not been included in the report. I know Pete and he does not strike me as being that tightly wound. We also know that he lost his tracker to an elephant this year, and he may be a bit sensitized by experience.

Geronimo

One other thing that I noticed is that the client has alot of trouble shooting at game but can kill paper everytime. Hmmmmmmmmmm

I know the hunter quite well.

While I won't make any comments on his abilities.

I will say that he and I are no longer breathing each others air.

The report does not surprise me in the least. In fact I would expect it to have turned out the way it did.

Some people just don't play well with others.

FWIW, Rich, the hunter, is publisher of SWAT Magazine.

It's funny how these a-hole PH's get aggravated when the hunter can't see game, then gut shoots it when he does finally get a broadside shot. I don't know why they would be that way,as they should be happy to showcase their tracker's ability to recover game. Seriously, after reading the story, anyone should expect the PH to be a little less than excited, I don't know anyone who likes to lose wounded game. Nothing bugs me more than taking someone hunting who can't see the game standing in the brush while I'm standing there pointing at it telling them to shoot, then eventually watching it saunter off. I can feel his pain.

Horrible Zim hunt(er)?

quote:

Originally posted by PWS:
Horrible Zim hunt(er)?

I think it was the clients fault. 11 shots on a Buff. I think they need a better gun for the first shot.

I think that the hunter found out the hard way that a 460gr bullet at 2000fps is not buffalo medicine. I know that if I were a ph who had lost a member of my staff on a hunt, I'd be wary of anyone who wanted to use less than what I'd deem adequate on a hunt for DG. If the person's ability to hit paper was less than ideal, I'd be very inclined to nix the use of said weapon.

I wonder with regard to reported conflicts between hunters and phs, how much antimalarial medication feeds into this? It is reported that some people have reactions to the stuff. I just wonder. Kudude

I don't know any of these guys personally but Richard sure comes across as a type A Ruark want a be. After having a tracker killed, Is it that hard to bleave any outfitter would dread guiding any poor shooting client on dangerous game? Any time you lose your guides respect, there is a very good chance you will not "hit it off" or "click "

I wounder if things would have been different had the client showed up with soft soled boots, base ball cap and a gun that was sighted in ?

SB45,

Ya, my reference is bit obscure but I did mean a client that seemed a bit off. I didn't take the report to paint the hunt as all that "horrible" either, maybe not worth repeating but certainly not an experience worth regretting.

Good point, Kudude, about the medications. I'm convinced mine gave me the DT's so bad you can actually see the video footage I took get progressively shakier as the hunt progressed. I don't think the meds affected my mood but they might have positively. For me, just being there was and incredible experience and I wore a s-eatin' grin the whole time.

Looks to me like the client got a lot of nice trophies in spite of his imperfect marksmanship. And maybe it was the client who was hard to get along with, not the PH.

"FWIW, Rich, the hunter, is publisher of SWAT Magazine.."

Well that tells me a lot. No I don't know the guy but I sure know the type! Cops (and worse - cop wannabees) are as a group some of the worst shots I know. Sure there are exceptions, but I always cringe when someone refers to gun info learned from a cop.

BTW, I've worked in the criminal justice system for over twenty years. I count many friends in local, state and federal law enforcement. Some of them are great shots and terrific hunters. Typically though it's the guy with the biggest mouth and ego who has the least ability! Not someone you want to count on in a fight (or a charge). Maybe I'm wrong about this guy but it all seems to fit the mold now.

Oupa,

Rich Lucibella is not a cop nor has he ever been one.

Thanks. the .50 Alaskan is NOT an african big game round, and, taking that, and a 338, seems to me to be just idiotic, in particular when he has a blaser in .416.

The combination of timing, and his weapon choices, plus what is apparently pretty poor marksmanship, certainly creates a lot of questions about the 'facts' presented...

GS

Interesting.
You reckon a 570 grain at 2000fps is not an African big game round? Why is that?

if he grabbed my neck and then my rifle because things were not going well,then that would have ruined my trip.seems to me that the unsmileing ph needed a vacation.the hunter is paying alot of money to enjoy a hunting/vacation.if his firearm or shootin ability caused any inconveniences then that should have been resolved before the hunt.Instead the hunt begins and the ph concludes,this is not the right gun,the hunter has an attitude,and we are all going to die.I saw a picture of Rich and he looks like an intelligent and hard working man.

quote:

Originally posted by TJ:
Interesting.
You reckon a 570 grain at 2000fps is not an African big game round? Why is that?

Weren't they 460 grain softs and 500 grain solids at 2000 fps?

Yes that would be a bit on the anemic side for a .510 caliber. Just a little bit too little.

quote:

Originally posted by TJ:
Interesting.
You reckon a 570 grain at 2000fps is not an African big game round? Why is that?

Well, my friend builds .50 Alaskans all the time, and, the only way to get those ballistics are with super high pressures, and 35" barrels.

If not, feel free to give me the exact combination that gave you those ballistics, and, I'll run em by the boys, and see if they can duplicate your stuff. Last time I fired a 570 at 2050 it was out of a Nitro Express 500.

The Alaskan is NOT one of those...

GS

quote:

Originally posted by TJ:
Interesting.
You reckon a 570 grain at 2000fps is not an African big game round? Why is that?

TJ,

A 570 gr bullet out of a .50 Ak @ 2000 FPS is a bit optimistic isn't it?

With that in mind I believe that the 50 Ak is just starting to get into African DG territory. The problem here was obviously a bout of lousy shooting not the equipment.

Rich was shooting 460gr belt mountain bonded and 500 gr cast core solids. Neither of which by the way make the recommended .300 SD number.

While I've had my falling out with Mr. Rich Lucibella I can tell you that he has hunted Africa and the U.S. quite extensively. He has also killed 3 previous buffalo in Tanzania with his Marlin 1895 in .45-70. Two of which were verified one shot kills. Overall he has done a shit load more hunting than the majority of the posters on this sight.

I don't know for sure what went wrong on this hunt in regards to Rich's shooting. But I have a pretty solid guess as I've seen a huge change in his attitude and behavior in the last year. We used to be friends we used to hunt together. That was all swept away in a firey and totally uncalled for temper tantrum one fine afternoon in January.

I just hope he is able to figure out what the real problem is before it damages him, his health and his credibility for good.

I know that I won't deal with Rich's BS for ten minutes much less 15 days. You mix that with a PH with an attitude and you've got BIG trouble.

I don't know both sides of the story. But I can tell you that if a PH ever grabbed me and started pushing my rifle around he would have had a much more dangerous situation on his hands than a mere wounded dagga boy.

As much as some would love to make this into a lever gun bashing thread, that is not in the slightest way what this whole thing is about.

I haven't read the story, but am referencing only the lever gun used, and round. Brian Pierce, who writes for Rifle Magazine, went to Africa last year, and shot a cape buff with is Marlin 95, in 45/70, using CorBon ammo, and said his round went completely through the Buff and killed on behind it. I took a Marlin 95 to Zim with me in 72, when good bullets were not available, and had the 405 grainers loaded up hot,and it sucked. All the bullets just flattened out. I eventually gave it up for my wifes 06 or the 375 I had along. The PH I was using loved the gun, and the round, though it would have needed better bullets. Todays ammo in 45/70 quite a bit better than the loads I was using. Bad bullet placement though is a problem, and one bad one, can take a lot of follow ups to rectify. Now, off to read the story.

I Notice the Client hasn't lodged a complaint with the association, and listening to the PH's version you wouldn't believe it was the same hunt.

Well, either my chronograph is wrong or I misread it. I've got 2, .50 Alaskans and either one will shoot the 570 grain Kodiak bullet at around 2000fps. Close to the muzzle of course. No sign of high pressure. The cases ejected easily, no cratering of the primer and they were not flat. Maybe as a kid, I read to many Elmer Keith stories?
Couple years ago, we did a penetration test using a dry Spruce log. We shot the .50 and a .338 WM. The .50 penetrated about 6 inches further than the .338 did. Not very scientific but interesting.
I need to do that test again using a .458 and the .50 Alaskan.

Maybe your shooting too close to your chrono.
Buffalbore gets max 525's at 1800. What length is the barrel you are using, what powder?

http://www.hunting-rifles.com/kodiak.htm

Kodiak doesn't list a 570 grain, 510 bullet on their website. How did you get a hold of them?

S

quote:

Nothing bugs me more than taking someone hunting who can't see the game standing in the brush while I'm standing there pointing at it telling them to shoot, then eventually watching it saunter off.

Jstevens. I have only been to Africa once, but there were plenty of occasions where the PH could see stuff that I couldn't. In one case, I had shot a Kudu. We tracked it for quite a while and then the PH saw it lying behind a bush under a tree. Despite his whispered instructions I could not see well enough to know where (in the animal) I was shooting. I told him to take the shot. He did, it ran off, but not very far. I still do not regret telling him to take the shot. Seeing "animal parts" of animals that you are not familiar with, is not something that I find easy. If I am responsible for the shot then I want to know what I am aiming at.
Peter.

I tried to find his story by clicking on the link show, but where do I go from there?

Thanks

H kittle

quote:

Originally posted by GS:
The story starts on page 2, Rich L is the author, and his narrative is certainly intresting. If you read it, thinking about someone with certain substance problems, it REALLY starts to make sense.
Then the bad shooting, being pushed around, and not being able to see the animals start to make sense...

GS

GS,are your saying the hunter is a hash smoker?

GS,

Youp.....



The above is the problem.
-----------------------------------------------
I am editing this becuase shootaway sliped his post in before mine came up.

Rich is not a drug user. I've also never seen Rich drunk with a rifle in his hands.

I simply won't buy the story that he was drinking during actual hunting hours.

After hours is another story.

double post, deleted.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by TJ:
My .50 Alaskan is a Browning Model 71 modified by Harry McGowan. My sons is also a Model 71, I forget who modified it. they are not here so I can't measure the bbls. I would guess 22=24 ". We use IMR 4198. Somewhere around 54 grains.
I have a box and a half of the 570 grain Kodiak bullets left. We bought them 5-6 years ago. I guess they don't make them any more.
This one is mine.



This is my sons.



This is the only thing I've been able to try it on so far. Big moose in heavy brush. One shot in the hump, he made two jumps and fell over dead. I like it and would shoot a buffalo in a heartbeat with it.


Guess I don't know who JRH is. If their getting 1650fps out of a 10 inch barrel, that ain't bad!

JRH= Jack Huntington.

He's been modifying BFR long cylinder revolvers to get that, and, he also rechambers all kinds of rifles for it.

It seems like a strange cartridge, in that it's a .50 caliber version of the 458 Winmag, in some ways.
It also seems to be able to push heavier bullets near as fast as the lighter ones. Could be the barrels on your guns, and stuff are adding velocity, since McGowan isn't a slouch at rifle barrels. I haven't found anyone getting over 1800 fps with a bullet any heaver then 485 in my research, and reloading manuals. However, it will push 600 grain bullets near 1800 fps. Weird cartridge, and, you've got the right powder for it.

TJ, don't get me wrong, I'm all for .50's and, at low velocity, they can be real devastating on game. Guys most often compare the killing power to a 375 H&H rifle, at most. Even the .500 JRH, with a 440 grain bullet, at just 1100 fps has gone through bison, asian buffalo etc. and done a ton of damage. The bigger bullets are better, but, the Alaskan falls just short of the extra 400 fps to move it firmly into the stopping category. That's always pretty much started at 2150 fps, with a 500 grain bullet, in 458 or bigger caliber, and, for Africa, it's been that way for near 100 years...

GS

I just returned from my first African safari. I was in the same camp as Rich to hunt Leopard and plains game. I arrived there a couple days later than he, after taking a Buffalo in the Chewore Safari Area with Mokore Safaris.

After reading his accounts about his PH Pete, the food and Mokore Safaris in general, I'm appalled. I had exactly the opposite impressions. The staff was highly motivated & professional, the food was outstanding and the hunting exceptional.

The only blemish to my safari experience was having to share time in camp with "the worlds authority on everything".
I tend to dig my heels in when confronted by people who are rude & arrogant, people who enjoy trying to control every situation and trying to control the people around them. People who, in my opinion, drink a little too much. I walked away from every possible confrontational situation because that's what my mama taught me to do. However, after reading what had been written here, I had to put in my two cents worth.

I'm just an average guy who doesn't have alot of money. I had to save a long time to make this trip. All I can say is I'm starting to save in ernest for a return trip to Africa, this time I will take my wife along. I will book my next hunt with Mokore Safaris without any hesitation.

Thanks FE!

While this is what everyone seems to have thought it's great to hear it from someone who was there. Problem solved!

It doesn't matter if he was stoned.He is a paying customer on vacation and really not endagering anybody.He is their to have FUN.What is better to have a scotch or a martini and then shoot a buffalo.Everyone probably hates him because he is a minority with money.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
.Everyone probably hates him because he is a minority with money.

I think we have now hit a new low here on AR. Simply unbelievable!!!!!!