Still going at it with this lion conservation group that fervently believes the only way to save lions is a hunting moratorium. They asked me to follow up the first poll with the following. I think the answer is obvious unless you like hunting in a pen. But they don't understand how we think. Trying to cross bridges here. Thanks, John

John: Would you ask your friends this question as proposed by Craig Packer---- Would you pay $50,000 to go on a 3 week safari to have the "thrill" of a lion hunt without any guarantee of a trophy? Would you spend that amount of money and vo...luntarily turn down male lions that did not meet the very basic 6+ age regulation? What is more important to you - maintaining the sustainability of lion hunting for future hunters even if you come up empty-handed, or your trophy?

Question:
Would you pay $50,000 to go on a 3 week safari to have the "thrill" of a lion hunt without any guarantee of a trophy?

Choices:
Yes the hunt would be enough
No I expect a trophy regardless

Question:
Would you spend that amount of money and vo...luntarily turn down male lions that did not meet the very basic 6+ age regulation?

Choices:
Yes
No

Question:
What is more important to you - maintaining the sustainability of lion hunting for future hunters even if you come up empty-handed, or your trophy?

Choices:
sustainability so hunting remaines open forever
trophy (who cares about the future)

 

quote:

Yes the hunt would be enough

An outfitter's dream come true!

Only the best of outfitters and PHs would survive this scenario....better all the way around.

If there ain't no lions to shoot don't be selling the hunts.

John - Anyone who goes lion hunting and EXPECTS to get one is delusional, and should hunt SA! Secondly, anyone who is willing to shoot an obviously "immature" lion simply to make sure they go home with one, should be shot too! As should the PH. Lastly, accurately aging a lion to be 6+ years old on the "paw", is impossible!

Want proof, wait til Dr. White's guide to aging trophy harvested lions from Zambia is officially published in 2011. I have seen ALL of it. Lions from all across the Luangwa & Kafue in Zambia are pictured, show tooth samples, ages, etc. It was of absolutely no suprise to me when looking at many of the different lions and their associated ages, to be different that what one might think, but I'm sure alot of folks will find it quite interesting. So far it shows 48 different lions from all over both places, interestingly enough, the lions taken out of the Luangwa seem to average just a bit higher in age than those in the Kafue. Her and I both agreed on the single biggest factor for that. Lions in the Kafue can and often do produce much bigger, fuller manes than those from the Luangwa. Because of that, it appears as more 5 yr old lions are shot in the Kafue than to the east, simply because these lions already look to have and do have much bigger and more fully developed manes, than those of similar age from the Luangwa.

So, take places in TZ where genetically better manes are often produced, like the Kafue in Zambia, and likely results could be similar. Not that the PH/hunter are trying to do anything wrong, but to assess fines, penalites, suspensions, etc, because a lion under the age of 6 (5 for example) is shot, would be outrageous. A lion could have better than average/normal mane development, look to be an exceptional trophy, as well as looking to be of sufficient age (6), and yet only be 5 years old. IMO, until a factual/full-proof way to accurately age lions on the paw is available (which IMO is impossible), the best way to regualte lion off-take is through set quotas.

I also agree with Saeed. Without a quota, a few operators would find a way to create trouble.

I have turned down young male Lions and gone home without after $50k and 21 days in Tanzania. That's hunting as it should be done. There was no return discount offered.

And I totally agree with Aaron's comment about accurately aging Lion in the bush.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
I have turned down young male Lions and gone home without after $50k and 21 days in Tanzania. That's hunting as it should be done. There was no return discount offered.

Exactly! I too have done 2 separate lion hunts that cost over $50,000 and came home without a lion. On both hunts I could have shot several 3-4 yr old males, but passed them each time. Good Lion conservation is part of lion hunting. If you honestly can't stand the fact of going home without one, don't go lion hunting! But to shoot a young lion, just to get one, should be shunned by the entire hunting community.

Mr Hunt, I doubt anything you say or show examples of will change the minds of shallow people. They really do not care what your argument or proof is...they hate hunting, period. They can paint a wolf any color they wish...it's still a wolf. Their minds are generally so shallow that statistics, reports, books and many common sense voices would only cause their heads to explode. How many anti-hunters do you expect to convert? Personally, I wish you the very best with this. But Lions are only big kitty cats...and they are friends with puppy dogs and cuddly Elephants. I wish it weren't so, but PETA teaches everyone it's so. Beware of Wolves in Sheep's clothing. They will twist and turn anything and everything you say. You can't teach a fool anything...he's a fool.
Sincerely, all the best,
David Keith

I agree with Will," if there are not enuf mature lions don't sell the hunts".

I also believe we have reached that point in most of southern Africa. Parts of Zambia, the Selous, and western Tanzania probably are exceptions, and maybe some of Zim, but without proactive conservation Lions are in trouble.

No, I don't think hunters are the problem or even a large part of the problem. I do believe we are going to have to be a substantial part of the solution.

BTW I'm envious of you guys who can toss $50k at a 21 day stroll thru the mopanes and wait a bits.

David - you are right for the most part. This group interestingly enough, through much patience and consistency is starting to listen. But my expectations are low.

Adrian - I need to send you Packers latest paper.

Been on a lot of fruitless lion chases, so it's not guaranteed by any means. Including one of those expensive Tanzania hunts.

But I don't see lion hunts as much different than leopard hunts. It's pretty much a foregone conclusion if you go where there are lots of leopards or lots of lions. Killing one of these isn't any great feat.

It's when you hunt them in questionable areas that they are hard to come by, where they don't come out til after dark dark, don't hit baits, etc.! And you hunt and hunt and never see one or get one to bait, or kill one.

Admittedly outfitters don't want to see any negativity but who hasn't seen a lion hunt sold repeatedly in the same year for a lion on quota that is never killed from hunt to hunt and nobody is going to kill it?

Hey, if you are daddy mega bucks, who cares? You can go to the best areas, spend the biggest of bucks, and bring home the big black maned lion. For us white trash though it is a dicey situation. Spend money year after year on lion hunts in questionable areas and keep returning home empty handed. Who says money can't buy you happiness, and a black mane?

If you are only going to kill what is guessed to be 6+ year old lions, just face facts and figure unless you have mega money you ain't gonna kill a lion.

The only way to assure lots of old lions is quit killing lions, and eliminate poaching where probably more lions are killed than from hunting. Good luck with that.

Not good news for the poor crackers.

And the Packer report, etc., does not really prove much except that a lot of lions probably get poached and poached in ritual killings BUT they have no clue how many that is, so what's the point? And the population explosion from all the do-gooder doctors traipsing over to Africa every summer with gobs and gobs of meds and foreign currency. Ain't gonna be able to stop that. How much does it really help the lion population by running SAS statistical analyzes over and over again? And only shooting 6+ year old lions? And the next year disease kills half of all the lions anyway. And what about shooting lioness?

And if you get a lot of lions, they start chomping on the locals and then everyone is falling all over themselves to go kill them. Indiscriminately most likely. If some dope in my neighborhood sees a garter snake, you'd think we were being besieged by man-eating lions for all the hubbub that results from it.

You're between a rock and a hard place. If you quit hunting them the locals will just kill them as there is no incentive for the outfitters and clients to pay to try to protect them. Kenya all over again. If you can get enough greenhorns to pay up and not expect to kill a lion, more power to you. Maybe enough outfitters being around and game guards on the payroll will save a few lions from the locals. Will it save the lions in the long run? Who knows, eh?

Yes, yes and yes --

But, I can't imagine answering otherwise -- it's basically the way that I do all of my hunting anyhow. I spend a small fortune to get the opportunity to hunt and something more if I take a trophy -- and I won't shoot anything that's not actually a trophy, no matter how much I've spent to get into the bush. In this case, 6+ years just becomes another of the criteria that make up the "trophy" descriptor -- and it's always been one of my requirements in any case.

Shooting non-trophy animals has never been much of an attraction to me. If that's as good as it gets on a hunt, I just aim an empty gun at the beast and say "boom." I wouldn't enjoy it one iota more if I actually put the animal down.

But, each to his own.

Yes, yes, and yes. If the US shut down lion imports tomorrow I'd still hunt one even if I couldn't bring it back....EVER! It's about the experience not the trophy!

Brett

Unfortunately what cursed India's Wildlife (human encroachment)is steadily occurring in Africa.
I wonder what the Tiger situation would be like now if sport hunting was allowed, along with all the Maharajah's hunting reserves?

In reply to the question.
Although the areas I have hunted Lion (one area with a 6year min) had little or no human population, thus plenty of Lion, there still was no guarantee in scoring. Yet I still did it and had some very enjoyable hunting.
I also wouldn't spend $50G but that's only due to my lack of funds.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
I have turned down young male Lions and gone home without after $50k and 21 days in Tanzania. That's hunting as it should be done. There was no return discount offered.

And I totally agree with Aaron's comment about accurately aging Lion in the bush.

$50k? I better put my prices up.

In Zambia in good Lion areas your chances of shooting a big mature male is probably around 70%. Some are claiming higher but I am not sure of the quality. Richard Bell Cross and I took our quota of four in the Kafue and some of the best Lions we have seen and shot to date.

In Luangwa I have a quota of one (reduced from two) and it took us only three days here to secure a trophy Lion.

I personally would still like to see others offer a downgrade in the daily rate or other incentives if one does not get a shot at a trophy Lion over 21 days.

Personally I think it would pay off for the outfitter as there are many out there who could probably afford a Lion safari but who could not afford failure or a second chance?

Could institutions such as AR could enforce policy to it's members, outfitters and Agents who post here? That would be Saeed's call not mine.

Firstly, I don't think that the 6 year limit is the be all and end all of it because if you shoot a 6+ year old lion that's holding a pride, it's still going to have far reaching implications on the general population.

Secondly, it's not the number of lions that are taken by sport hunting that's unsustainable, it's the number that are taken for other reasons such as tribal traditional such as in the case of the Masai and poaching and those methods pay no heed to age etc.

Thirdly, the media and perhaps others are raising emotions by misquoting figures. A common misquote is that 500 or so lions a year are taken out of Tz as sport hunted trophies. I think that's bollocks.

The figures I've seen for the last four years that are available, work out as an average of just below 200 a year.

If people truly want to see lion populations rise, the real answer is to stop people like the Masai killing them and that simply ain't gonna happen all the time there's a Masai on the planet.

I'm sure some of the bright eyed do-gooders will want to raise money to pay the poor Masai not to kill lions and I'm sure lots of little old ladies will stump up....... but y'know what. The Masai will take their money, smile and nod........ and then carry on in their same merry way.

If the Masai and others don't stop killing lions with snares, spears, poison and anything else they can think of, it won't matter how many lions are or are not sport hunted, the numbers will continue to decline.

Ok so what we are saying is maintain the staus quo??? Which is what???
Try to shoot the best lion you find but do not dare to go home empty handed because you have paid for a lion safari????

I SAY BOLLOCKS!

I am just reading excuses not solutions by the nay sayers.......... in the meantime lions are dying for the wrong reasons........ and please, I AM NOT SAYING WE SHOULD ADOPT MY SUGGESTIONS AS THE ONLY SOLUTION. Any other recommendation or concept is welcome.

I wouldn`t pay $50K up front for a lionhunt. I wouldn`t mind go on a lionhunt paying the daily rates..If I encounted a lion I could shoot I would pay then ofcouse...No lion in 3 weeks = no money.
However I would never go on a lionhunt for three weeks without have other animals booked.

As for lion in general. The oldtimers shot them like they were pest.Today we know better. You shoot lion for trophy alone, + it might works like viagra for some...hahah. I do not know if any tribes of africa that eat lion?.
It is my impression that those who offeres lionhunting only harvest from the "field", but do not sow( conservation).

quote:

John - Anyone who goes lion hunting and EXPECTS to get one is delusional, and should hunt SA! Secondly, anyone who is willing to shoot an obviously "immature" lion simply to make sure they go home with one, should be shot too! As should the PH.

I believe that Wild lion prices should be pushed up to allow all populations to be monitored scientifically.
If we don't want to be seen as selfishly taking off trophies for the sake of ego boosting etc then we have to have the science and proper management to back our arguments
It would also start to bring the focus back to the real problems that the Lions face, like the Massaai and prevent emotional blackmail being used to drive forward anti hunting causes.
The anti hunting movement can only operate in a factless void, we need to get smart in fighting for the cause and stop letting it be an emotional battle.

SCI and PHASA need to start leading the fight using their heads, not their balls

quote:

Originally posted by Vlam:
I believe that Wild lion prices should be pushed up to allow all populations to be monitored scientifically.
If we don't want to be seen as selfishly taking off trophies for the sake of ego boosting etc then we have to have the science and proper management to back our arguments
It would also start to bring the focus back to the real problems that the Lions face, like the Massaai and prevent emotional blackmail being used to drive forward anti hunting causes.
The anti hunting movement can only operate in a factless void, we need to get smart in fighting for the cause and stop letting it be an emotional battle.

SCI and PHASA need to start leading the fight using their heads, not their balls

I'll agree with that but my guess is the price of a lion hunt would at least double, if not treble and hunters would have to accept that as the price of saving lions and lion hunting for the future.

quote:

....... and please, I AM NOT SAYING WE SHOULD ADOPT MY SUGGESTIONS AS THE ONLY SOLUTION.

What suggestions?

Until the poaching, by whatever means and whomever, and a spreading population are stopped you are kidding yourself.

If the price of a lion hunt is tripled or quadrupled, how is the money to be used to stop population growth or the tribal ritual killings and not just buying new Cruisers and vacation homes in Mauritius?

Big bucks are paid now for lion hunts? Where is that money going? To save the lions or what, I wonder?

Will,

No-one gets rich out of hunting wild lions. The vast majority of that money goes to paying for things like area fees, vehicles, servicing, wages, road building and maintenance, camp building, anti poaching, generators & fuel etc etc etc.

The additional costs would pay for a full time study of the lions and their dynamics in tha area so as to identify what could or could not be shot. And that would be a big help.

What it won't do though is stop or even slow the illegal killing. How do you stop the illegal killing? - My guess is you NEVER will.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
If the price of a lion hunt is triples or quadrupled, how is it the money is used to stop population growth or the tribal ritual killings and not just buying new Cruisers and vacation homes in Mauritius?

Great point Will. I'd give it an exclamation point, but quite frankly it's depressing. How do you stem the tide so to speak????? I refuse to give up. It's not in my nature, but quite frankly what are we as hunters going to do that's going to signifigantly affect lion populations considering the ever rising African populations and subsiquent encroachment of habitat??????? Really what could possibly be done???????

Brett

We can clean up our act and not be "the problem", but really what are WE going to do about the continent wide problem of over population, habitat encroachment, and subsiquent lion death???????

Brett

quote:

The additional costs would pay for a full time study of the lions and their dynamics in tha area

Oh no, another study!

It seems obvious what the problems are but the elimination of the problems are not going to be accomplished by performing more studies.

The previous studies seem to be just another nail in the coffin of prohibiting lion hunting, by ignoring the real and probably unsolvable problems that face the lions.

quote:

Oh no, another study!

Not another "Study" where the people go home at the end of their month in the bush. But a full time hunting sponsored conservation force whos job is lion conservation.

We all tend to get down trodden at the daunting nature of the task. But that helps noone. Do you not think that Ian Player saw the saw scenario when he initiated his many conservation drives. Not least of all Operation White Rhino. A positive attitude and the right drive are what is needed.
A marathon is run and often won, one step at a time.

Two great sayings from Edmund Burke.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of Evil, is that good men do nothing"

"No one could make a greater mistake than he who did nothing, because he could only do little"

We are all good men and when all have the ability to do something. Stop the tide of negative nay saying and start today by taking the little influence you have and putting it to good use.

Good day
Ian

Will,

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. The study money would pay for (permanent) individual teams in individual areas to study the individual lions/prides in THAT individual area so that when the hunter came into the area, the team would already have identified the individual animal he could try for.

That way, there's no chance of an inappropriate lion being shot.

(IMO) All this twaddle about 6 years being the be all and end all of lion management is just that..... twaddle. What needs to be done is only take lions that are preferably 6 years + AND absolutely are not holding a pride with dependent young.

I don't even see a problem with taking a lion younger than 6 if he has a good mane AND is not holding a pride with dependent young.

I hate to say it but (IMO) whether we like it or not, a moratorium on lion hunting is inevitable sooner ot later......I hate it even more that the moratorium won't stop the illegal killing and it'll be that that wipes the species out of the wild rather than hunting.

Bottom line is that Lion conservation, or any conservation boils down to effective and responsible management. The antis have no concept or understandng that hunting can be and is an effective management tool. No amount of arguing will ever convince a greenie of that. .......until one of their kids gets eaten by a hungry lion in an area overpopulated by the big cuddly wuddly puddy tats............mmmm who wants to help me import a couple of greenies ....they might make better bait than zebra!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by zimFrosty:
...........mmmm who wants to help me import a couple of greenies ....they might make better bait than zebra!!!!

Then tell me what "proper management" might be. If shooting only 6+ year old lions is the answer, or part of the answer, how do you know that?

Shooting poachers? Shooting poachers involved in ritual killings? Shooting squatters? What?

That same study showed the lion populations decreasing in Ngorongoro. Well protected lions I presume. If the lions can't figure it out, how can mere humans?

Will, you have "surrendered" already! No need to try and convince others to follow you.

It's probably 4 in the am for you, you should get a rest

Bwanamich,

I have posted this before, and I will repeat it again.

I have seen photos taken by "indeginous" hunters in Tanzania, where several lion cups, and several young sable, have been killed on their hunt.

I know, they are not supposed to shoot these animals, or animals like eland. But they do.

Who keeps an eye on them?

We as paying hunters sometimes have to put up with all sorts of bullshit from very young, and ignorant, game scouts. Who actually know nothing of the game laws they are supposed to make sure we follow.

I am sure your own PHs can tells this.

At the same time, the so called "indeginous" hunters, shoot whatever they wish.

Another thing those "indeginous" hunts do is also invite "guests" come along and hunt with them.

Why isn't the game department doing something about this?

I bet more young lions are shot by these local hunters than mature males are shot by paying clients every year in Tanzania.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
Will, you have "surrendered" already! No need to try and convince others to follow you.

It's probably 4 in the am for you, you should get a rest

It is not surrender that I am addressing. But just throwing money at it will probably have no effect.

There is a lion problem. I want a solution. What is it? How is it that buying new vehicles, tracking equipment, etc. going to help the lions? And no platitudes. Not just "we have to do something."

It is a multifaceted problem. I have no solution. I hope there is one.

Will,

I don't have the answer either.

Running a proper study to identify shootable lions in an area will do just that and nothing more but it won't stop the Masai and others killing lions at every opportunity by all means possible.

It might be easier if the anti crowd would accept the real problem instead of laying it on us but that ain't gonna happen either.

Saeed,
I and others are just as frustrated as you about what you report!

In my experience, if you as a foreign client confront and complain directly to a GS who is misbehaving, you will resolve the matter right there and then with no further issues. Most of the time, the PH is trying to shield the client from these shenanigans. GS do not like to confront unhappy clients

Whenever a GS came to see me tell me some BS story, I would tell him, "OK, can you go and explain to Mr Smith (fictitious name) what you just told me. He will be very unhappy!". 9 times out of 10 the problem is solved.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

....... and please, I AM NOT SAYING WE SHOULD ADOPT MY SUGGESTIONS AS THE ONLY SOLUTION.

What suggestions?

Until the poaching, by whatever means and whomever, and a spreading population are stopped you are kidding yourself.

If the price of a lion hunt is tripled or quadrupled, how is the money to be used to stop population growth or the tribal ritual killings and not just buying new Cruisers and vacation homes in Mauritius?

Big bucks are paid now for lion hunts? Where is that money going? To save the lions or what, I wonder?

Will - You're right on one thing, biggest issue is to stop poaching. But man, that's gonna be tough unfortunately. Secondly, you should spend some time in the hunting business. You would learn quickly the cost of running a hunting operation, especially in parts of TZ for example.

Bwanamich - I can only say the same thing so many times! Strictly controlled quotas, with penalties for those shooting lions UNDER 5 yrs of age. Quota reduction, fines, etc. Did anyone bother to read the info I said earlier regarding Dr. White's lion study so far?? To distinguish a lion's age, once they have reach approximately 5+ yrs old, by looking at them, is virtually impossible. Mane development, nose coloration, blah, blah, blah. It all varies greatly from region to region, and individual lion, to individual lion, period!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Bwanamich,

I have posted this before, and I will repeat it again.

I have seen photos taken by "indeginous" hunters in Tanzania, where several lion cups, and several young sable, have been killed on their hunt.

I know, they are not supposed to shoot these animals, or animals like eland. But they do.

Who keeps an eye on them?

We as paying hunters sometimes have to put up with all sorts of bullshit from very young, and ignorant, game scouts. Who actually know nothing of the game laws they are supposed to make sure we follow.

I am sure your own PHs can tells this.

At the same time, the so called "indeginous" hunters, shoot whatever they wish.

Another thing those "indeginous" hunts do is also invite "guests" come along and hunt with them.

Why isn't the game department doing something about this?

I bet more young lions are shot by these local hunters than mature males are shot by paying clients every year in Tanzania.

Saeed:

As far as I know, Eland is included as a permitted species on a residential hunting licence - maybe not in all the areas bit it is on the list

Of what nationality were these 'gentlemanly' hunters?

quote:

I can only say the same thing so many times! Strictly controlled quotas, with penalties for those shooting lions UNDER 5 yrs of age. Quota reduction, fines, etc. Did anyone bother to read the info I said earlier regarding Dr. White's lion study so far?? To distinguish a lion's age, once they have reach approximately 5+ yrs old, by looking at them, is virtually impossible. Mane development, nose coloration, blah, blah, blah. It all varies greatly from region to region, and individual lion, to individual lion, period!

Aaron Neilson
Global Hunting Resources

Amen!