First off I'm not a lion hunter, nor could I afford a $50K hunt for anything! However I voted "YES" to all the questions listed in the poll, simply because I think lion hunting will go the way of the Dodo if some restraint is not exercised.

When I first went on Safari mature lion could be taken easily and the 14 days required to be legal was at a rate of not more than $500 per day, and also included a cape buffalo The trophy fee for a male lion was only $2K+ baits, an the buffalo was only $1K. That was a reasonable price even back in the early 1980s, but lion simply didn't interest me at all even at half the price.

I would not pay $50k + trophy fees for any safari for one animal, even if I could afford to do so. IMO the only sin hunters are guilty of is shooting too many immature lion. Shooting a pride master than shooting an immature lion male does more damage. Shoot a pride master, and you kill every cub under one yr old, because the new master will kill them all to place his own on the ground. So in some case you take a big male home, but you killed 10 or 12 young along with your trophy.

The locals poisoning the lions, along with everything that feeds on a dead lion are doing far more damage to the lion and other animal populations than hunting will ever do, but you know who the greenies blame for the problem!

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Originally posted by Zig Mackintosh:

quote:

I can only say the same thing so many times! Strictly controlled quotas, with penalties for those shooting lions UNDER 5 yrs of age. Quota reduction, fines, etc. Did anyone bother to read the info I said earlier regarding Dr. White's lion study so far?? To distinguish a lion's age, once they have reach approximately 5+ yrs old, by looking at them, is virtually impossible. Mane development, nose coloration, blah, blah, blah. It all varies greatly from region to region, and individual lion, to individual lion, period!

Aaron Neilson
Global Hunting Resources

Amen!

Second that.

quote:

Did anyone bother to read the info I said earlier regarding Dr. White's lion study so far?? To distinguish a lion's age, once they have reach approximately 5+ yrs old, by looking at them, is virtually impossible.

Aaron,
I know you like to draw Dr. White like a pistol...and I for one am glad she is at her work. Infact...I hope TAMU will get to collaborate with her.

BUT...that is one persons opinion...and her studies have yet to be scrutinized by other scientists. Her work (although again I am GLAD she is out there) is NOT the final word.

NOW...I am really ducking...

Whether the age limit is 5 years or 6 years makes little difference IMO. If we all agree that it should be 5 then so be it. Where do we sign up?

I am assuming that someone will tell us how to accurately age a 5 year old seeing that we are saying we can"t age a 6 year old and that the physical difference between one and the other is (To use Aaron's word) IMPOSSIBLE to note!

From the other thread but I think it is important so I am copying and pasting to this one.

quote:
The idea is flawed and we as honest individuals can do the best we can.

Let us hope that proves to be enough.

Andrew

____________________________________________________________________
Andrew,

You hit the nail on the head sir. Unfortunately...not the head you were aiming at.

While yourself, Aaron, BwanaMich, Nigel and many many others are Honest Individuals...Y'all are a shrinking minority in the year 2010. I wish it weren't so but I am afraid it is.

Therefore...the rules must be set to govern the dishonest individuals. Believe me...I wish this were not the case.

If the 6 year age limit was put in place and $50K was the going rate for a wild lion, I wonder how many people would re-evaluate "hunting" a lion in South Africa. For the same $50,000 as the wild lion, you could get a hunt in Zimbabwe for a buffalo and tuskless cow elephant PLUS a quick little detour to South Africa to collect a farm raised lion. 3 of the big 5 for the price of one and no wild lion population was affected.

Not saying this is the write or wrong thing to do, but, like many things in life (starting a company, buying stock, investing, etc.), their is always a threshold people have when it comes to the amount of risk they're willing to take. If you raise the level of risk involved, less people are willing to invest, especially if there is safer alternatives with similar results.

I think an age limit is a great start to managing wild lions as I would like to see them around for many generations to come. I'm just playing the devil's advocate here as $50,000 is a big chunk of change for most people, me included.

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especially if there is safer alternatives with similar results.

For me...a canned hunt is NOT similar results. However...for those to whom it is...GREAT! If they just want a lion and don't care HOW they get it...I think a canned lion is the way to go for them and they SHOULD be encouraged to go that route.

It will lessen the pressure on wild lion while we are sorting out the decline.

For me...it is about the hunt...with the taking of a mature trophy being the "FINALLY" to the experience...NOT...the experience itself (the killing that is).

Hunting a wild lion is a priviledge NOT a right. Preservation of lion and lion habitat must be paramount.

The good thing about lion though is that once we have achieved our goal on preservation and they are inclining...they will make a nuisance of themselves and NEED hunter harvesting.

So...the way I see it...getting the lion out of decline and especially on the incline will only mean onr thing...GOOD LION HUNTING!

For the record...due to our wonderful US economy...I don't have $50K to spend on a lion hunt anymore. I am having to pinch pennies to hunt buff anymore.

But if I did have it I would go and the answer I checked was the top one to all in the poll.

Well lion hunting has to change and I think it is. The key is to stay ahead of the curve on research and policy. The anti's will have a hard time getting the traction that they so desire if we can do this successfuly.

Part of my efforts are to counter the perceptions that others have of trophy hunters. To put facts out there about lion's and why they are declining (and hunters are a part of the problem). And to try and keep those in the center in the center instead of shifting to a fringe.

The poll results have surprised them.

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especially if there is safer alternatives with similar results.



For me...a canned hunt is NOT similar results. However...for those to whom it is...GREAT! If they just want a lion and don't care HOW they get it...I think a canned lion is the way to go for them and they SHOULD be encouraged to go that route.

It will lessen the pressure on wild lion while we are sorting out the decline.

This essentially what I meant when I said similar. The end result is the same, a dead lion for your trophy room, but the path to that end result is the different. I was merely curious about the risk aversion of hunters. Not trying to turn this into a another canned lion debate.

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Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Good conservation is part of hunting.

I changed the original quote in a way that I think the original poster would agree with. Do the conservation or do without the hunt.

Dean

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Originally posted by Sevens:

quote:

especially if there is safer alternatives with similar results.



For me...a canned hunt is NOT similar results. However...for those to whom it is...GREAT! If they just want a lion and don't care HOW they get it...I think a canned lion is the way to go for them and they SHOULD be encouraged to go that route.

It will lessen the pressure on wild lion while we are sorting out the decline.

This essentially what I meant when I said similar. The end result is the same, a dead lion for your trophy room, but the path to that end result is the different. I was merely curious about the risk aversion of hunters. Not trying to turn this into a another canned lion debate.

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Originally posted by maki:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Good conservation is part of hunting.

I changed the original quote in a way that I think the original poster would agree with. Do the conservation or do without the hunt.

Dean

Is this another "don't hunt the poor ele's , they are endangered " deal??
Maybe all should go to the old Bots deal of tracking a lone male as the only lion allowed to be taken???

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Originally posted by Tom In Tennessee:
Is this another "don't hunt the poor ele's , they are endangered " deal??
Maybe all should go to the old Bots deal of tracking a lone male as the only lion allowed to be taken???

TiT,

Ele ain't no lion!!!