Friends, for the past couple of days I've been pounded with PM's, emails, FB messages and even text messages (phone calls I'm sure too) asking me for my opinion on the Zim lion case of late? Well, let me first say this - I'm still in Africa - where I've taken 2 lions in the past two weeks. So I've been having more fun than anything, but the messages won't stop - so I'll address it publicly (with what I think I know) and those who give a darn can take it from there.

Firstly, it's a lion - it's not "Cecil", or Bob, or Sammy, or any other damn human name. It's a wild lion, living in a wild national park, period. Greenies love to attach human names/emotions to wild animals, but the fact remains. When Simba sees Pumba, he kills Pumba, period!!!!!

When I first heard/saw this issue, I was under the impression it was simply a case of a hunter legally shooting a collared lion, in a legal hunting area, under legal hunting conditions. Which in my opinion is 100% acceptable. If you need an explanation as to why, ask Dr. Easter, Dr. White, or any other legit scientist. It should be self explanatory to be frank! If anything was in fact illegal however - then that obviously changes everything. I simply am not 100% sure of the circumstances so I must at least refrain from casting stones until proof is presented beyond a reasonable doubt!

I too shot a huge maned lion on Antoniette (same property) in 2002, weeks prior to the land invasions. Back then all was totally square, as was all the hunting. The lion I shot was also collared, and yet we had no idea of this until we walked up to him - and there it was. He was so well maned, that seeing it was virtually impossible from any distance at all. A point I make for Mr. Palmer, more so than anyone. Dr. Loveridge came and collected his collar the following day, thanked us for calling him, told me about my lion and carried on without any issue at all (I read he's now singing a different tune on this one, but likely he knows more about this lion than does the rest of us).

I obviously have no idea what the outfitter/PH knew, but I highly doubt Mr. Palmer knew anything about "Cecil". I follow lions more than most, and I've never seen/heard of him? The lion that is supposedly Africa's most famous lion?? If however either the outfitter, or client, knew about this particular lion and his status, even I would question the motives for hunting him? I simply think I would pass, and not because I disagree with hunting collared lions - but some things just aren't worth the trouble they cause - including a big maned lion. If any part of the hunt was illegal - then all the rest is really a moot point, as the entire act was illegal. Then the question is, who's responsible? In my opinion - that responsibility falls upon the outfitter/PH, especially considering the hunter is from a foreign country.

I do get seriously tired of the "ethical" token thrown into the mix. Who are you/I to determine another man's ethics? We have laws to determine what's right/wrong, ethics are your own to decide!!!

I fight for the right to shoot / hunt what science and the hunting community has determined is an acceptable lion to take, which really amounts to two simple criteria. Old/mature enough male, without dependent cubs. This lion was supposedly 13 yrs old (I hugely question that in the wild) clearly old enough for hunting if that's in fact the case. It's also been reported the lion was the father of little cubs - if so, that's a problem. But if the pride stayed within the park, there's a decent chance the hunter didn't know that, how could he? Again, seeing it from all sides - the best we can, is important IMO.

As for "luring" the lion out of the park, unless you are an experienced cat hunter in Africa - your opinion on this matter is worthless. If they used an electronic call however, that's illegal and a different story!

I suppose I personally am less likely to want to hang Mr. Palmer from the get-go (prior to all facts being presented) because I way more than most, can sympathize. I can absolutely guarantee you all, nobody on planet earth gets more hate mail / death threats regarding the hunting of the lion - than do I, period! Hundreds, thousands, and tens of thousands of them! Multiple petitions to shut down my FB page, stop me from entering Tanzania, etc, etc, etc. It never stops - ever!!!!!

And whenever an incident like this happens the frequency rapidly increases, as do the vile, disgusting things people say. Honestly, I have lost any/all sense of respect for every single person who slightly / in the least, opposes legal hunting. When men and women are threatening my family, my girlfriend and anyone else associated with me simply cause I'm a lion hunter, then I'm a mad mother fu**er! When my girlfriend is in tears over the VERY recent death of her brother and some anti tells her he killed himself because she's a hunter, I'm a mad mother fu**er! When they tell her they plan to kill her son so she too can feel the loss of a child, I'm a mad mother fu**er!!! When they tell me they hope myself and my family are beheaded by ISIS, I again am a mad mother fu**er!!!

So, for those that think I'm sometimes a bit more callus or not sensitive enough to the issues brought about by the non hunting / anti hunting public, perhaps the above paragraph explains it a bit more. I refuse to ever again give one single inch to these clowns, these cowards, these most uneducated, mis-informed, mis-guided, godless, narrow minded hypocrites! When your only argument is to threaten, name call and chastise others - you know then you have no argument at all.

I AM HUNTER! For that I make no excuses, no apologies, I back down to no one, and I hide from it not! United we stand, or devided we fall - it's up to us to decide??? I'm armed at all times, and I'm ready - either step up or shut up!! My money, my time and my efforts go to Lion hunting/conservation, for that I am proud!

Well said Aaron.

Very well put indeed! You absolutely have my highest respect ... I also have hunted lion.

Mart,
You guys have the most to loose from this I am afraid.

Y'all need to reign in some of these Park Guides that started this feeding frenzy. It will have long lasting effects on them as well.

Whomever, cast the first post on Facebook, if it was a Guide...he should loose his license.

The "only good" that may have come from it...is the stopping of the "quota transfer" scheme.

100% Aaron.

I said on a an earlier post that I think the ethics argument on the "Cecil" issue is misguided. A bit of a circular firing squad. I think those making that argument, while well intentioned, are guilty of not seeing the forrest for the trees in that this was an illegal hunt. Period!!

How does one argue ethics when the law was broken in the first place. It's poaching to take an animal without a permit / quota. Pure and simple. In other words, are there some poachers that are "more ethical" than others? I'll not give them that distinction. Poaching is poaching in my opinion. Arguing ethics on an illegal hunt is giving ground to the antis unnecessarily.

Personally, when discussing this matter with antis who will listen, or just non hunters, or for that matter, hunters who question the value of lion hunting in the first place, I don't want to interject ethics into the debate. It opens the discussion to "Why is it ok to shoot that lion but not 'Cecil'". At that point, the hunter's argument is already on the back foot and trying to justify his position from a point of emotion. Taking the position that the "Cecil" lion hunt was illegal and therefore not supported by the hunting community at large is a much stronger stance with which to argue from.

Ask yourself the question, "Why were there no lion quota in this area?". Quota is determined for a number of reasons. It's also denied for a number of reasons. #1 being a lack of sustainable numbers for the species in that particular area to support limited off take within the structure of conservation through hunting. #2, and for me in this case, is the biggest point that many are missing, is that lawful quota, or lack thereof, is often determined by the ethical nature of a hunt being conducted in that particular area! In other words, does anyone else believe that a lack of quota for this area may have been a result of Parks determining that a lion hunt in this area would be likely to harvest one of the park lions that are currently very popular with photo tourist? If that was the case, the ethics of the matter were already covered in the determination of not issuing a lion quota in the first place!!

Stick to the facts. The lion was hunted without quota. Therefore Illegal. No need to discuss ethics beyond that fact. Again, I think that's the strongest position we as hunters can take on the matter. Ethical hunters don't support hunting outside of the law!

Did anyone else catch "2 lions in the past two weeks". Lol... This has to be the most epic hunt I've seen on here. Congratulations doesn't even begin to cover it. Wow

This should be the last word on this situation but, sadly, it won't. What does the ridiculous response to this story tell us about our priorities and moral compass as a country?

quote:

Originally posted by Dutch44:
This should be the last word on this situation but, sadly, it won't. What does the ridiculous response to this story tell us about our priorities and moral compass as a country?

The hunter in this case is receiving death threats - the authorities do nothing about it.

A mom and pop shop, because of their Christian beliefs, refuses to serve a couple of queers and they get charged in court!!

Yep, the world has already gone down the drain!

All I can say is, Amen

Well said and glad to see a man with your back ground stand up for all hunters not just the ones who can do the hunts you do. It is time all us hunters stand together before we get run over anymore. Very sorry to hear the bs that comes your way and your family because you do something that helps the wildlife more then anything those people do who threaten you.

X2

Wish SCI would have taken the time to post such a great reply and or press release. Thank you Arron.
All I saw from them was a lot of CYA.

Aaron, Very well written post.

Good Job Aaron !

Thank you !!

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
Did anyone else catch "2 lions in the past two weeks". Lol... This has to be the most epic hunt I've seen on here. Congratulations doesn't even begin to cover it. Wow

Good Post Mr Neilson,

but I'm with Heym... 2 lions in two weeks. I'm hoping you post a report on this adventure of yours

You are correct, Saeed.

Very well said!

well done Aaron.

One of the best put together post's I have seen on AR
shane

Some comments from Zim media,
Somebody kills a lion - So ??
Why aren't Americans upset about lions killing Africans ?



Americans live in a Disney world !! Now the damage to hunting has been made .Emotions overcome facts .

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Dutch44:
This should be the last word on this situation but, sadly, it won't. What does the ridiculous response to this story tell us about our priorities and moral compass as a country?

The hunter in this case is receiving death threats - the authorities do nothing about it.

A mom and pop shop, because of their Christian beliefs, refuses to serve a couple of queers and they get charged in court!!

Yep, the world has already gone down the drain!

Just so. Exactly what I was thinking.

agreed...

Well said Aaron...thank you for saying it.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:


I do get seriously tired of the "ethical" token thrown into the mix. Who are you/I to determine another man's ethics?
We have laws to determine what's right/wrong, ethics are your own to decide!!!

PH Sullivan has not broken any laws, but his character has been bashed to death on AR based on his ethics.
The anti-crowd must be chuckling when they notice they have anti-hunter obsessed hunters doing their work for them.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

I do get seriously tired of the "ethical" token thrown into the mix. Who are you/I to determine another man's ethics? We have laws to determine what's right/wrong, ethics are your own to decide!!!

Well because without ethics and a positive public image the public won't support hunting, especially high dollar trophy hunting in corrupt countries of threatened animals.
Politicians will act on that pressure and create laws possibly banning US citizens from overseas hunting, bringing back trophies, etc.

Then you will get to decide whether to comply with those laws or be a criminal and suffer the consequences.

See, ethics matter.

quote:

Originally posted by Doug W:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

I do get seriously tired of the "ethical" token thrown into the mix. Who are you/I to determine another man's ethics? We have laws to determine what's right/wrong, ethics are your own to decide!!!

Well because without ethics and a positive public image the public won't support hunting, especially high dollar trophy hunting in corrupt countries of threatened animals.
Politicians will act on that pressure and create laws possibly banning US citizens from overseas hunting, bringing back trophies, etc.

Then you will get to decide whether to comply with those laws or be a criminal and suffer the consequences.

See, ethics matter.

When I see the comments on how ethics have no place in the current conversation I cannot help but think about all the bytes that have been killed in the past condemning hunters over the legal taking of lions deemed too young by some. Ironic perhaps only to me.

I am sure that you realize that he spent many years in college and dental school, and to refer to him as MR. Palmer is a direct insult. Here where I live, he would be given at least a little respect ( I HOPE) and be called Dr. Palmer...Nit picky I know but still should used.

This world is totally messed up because of the most messed up species on this earth -- us.

Aaron has his own unique way of expressing himself, but I agree with him.

The media, including social media, needs to cool off and get the facts. Aaron is likely right, assuming the hunt was in fact illegal, I doubt the hunter knew it. What will be most interesting is whether Mr. Honest Trymore Ndlovu is affiliated with Uncle Bob -- wanna bet?

Originally posted by KLD:

quote:

I am sure that you realize that he spent many years in college and dental school, and to refer to him as MR. Palmer is a direct insult. Here where I live, he would be given at least a little respect ( I HOPE) and be called Dr. Palmer...Nit picky I know but still should used.

You know, medical doctors, dentists and college professors seem rather uppity to me, insisting on being called "Doctor". Opposing counsel and judges continue to refer to lawyers as "Mr." despite the juris doctorate degree.

Much Respect Aaron for the post!
Very Strong and Powerful.
Great example for others on how to be strong in the face of Anti sentiment.
It's enraging when these punk liberals threaten others, their families, and friends.
We all know they cant cash the checks their mouths write!
Thank you for the strong and honest stance

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
This world is totally messed up because of the most messed up species on this earth -- us.

Aaron has his own unique way of expressing himself, but I agree with him.

The media, including social media, needs to cool off and get the facts. Aaron is likely right, assuming the hunt was in fact illegal, I doubt the hunter knew it. What will be most interesting is whether Mr. Honest Trymore Ndlovu is affiliated with Uncle Bob -- wanna bet?

Does anyone happen to recall where our president happened to have been last week? Hint: AFRICA (Kenya to be exact.)

Obama's trip just happened to put him out of the country, so his Secretary of State (John Kerry) was taking the heat for our nuclear agreement with Iran. The president had just complained about his frustration over his inability to achieve "common sense gun controls" (ie: mass seizures such as experienced by Australian citizens) and at the time, it didn't appear that an attack on sport hunting as a means of discrediting gun owners was part of his agenda. Of course, if trade issues between Zimbabwe and the U.S. (ie: the embargo on trophy ivory and elephant hides) were discussed....

Collusion between Obama and Robert Mugabe? Absolutely impossible! Right?

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
Originally posted by KLD:

quote:

I am sure that you realize that he spent many years in college and dental school, and to refer to him as MR. Palmer is a direct insult. Here where I live, he would be given at least a little respect ( I HOPE) and be called Dr. Palmer...Nit picky I know but still should used.

You know, medical doctors, dentists and college professors seem rather uppity to me, insisting on being called "Doctor". Opposing counsel and judges continue to refer to lawyers as "Mr." despite the juris doctorate degree.

Ha! Amen, brother.

Great write up Aaron.

quote:

Originally posted by kld:
I am sure that you realize that he spent many years in college and dental school, and to refer to him as MR. Palmer is a direct insult. Here where I live, he would be given at least a little respect ( I HOPE) and be called Dr. Palmer...Nit picky I know but still should used.

Yeah, well, barbers used to do what dentists get paid for today so maybe Mr Parker otta be glad to be referred to as Mr. rather than "Hey you!" or "Dude!".

Back on track, here in AK, theres been substantial coverage over what I think is a similar topic, wolf hunting and trapping near McKinley Park.

In the National Park, hunting is banned, the wildlife live like Cecil did in Hwange, the elephants do in Kruger. Outside the park, its sporting business as usual and occasionally the wolves as well as other McKinley Park wildlife is hunted and killed. I'm under the impression that AK has taken an attitude of, "What of it? We do what we think is right here, not what's trending on Twitter!". I'm for it and would agree that what goes on either Twitter or FB interests me not in the slightest.

In todays day and age free American adults are digitally villianized for letting their children play in a park, walk home from school, not standing and saluting when Ms. Jenner walks in the room and believing Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness isn't up to the government to monitor/ manage/ control/ regulate.

Hated for lion hunting? That's just a given.

Well said Aaron.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Dutch44:
This should be the last word on this situation but, sadly, it won't. What does the ridiculous response to this story tell us about our priorities and moral compass as a country?

The hunter in this case is receiving death threats - the authorities do nothing about it.

A mom and pop shop, because of their Christian beliefs, refuses to serve a couple of queers and they get charged in court!!

Yep, the world has already gone down the drain!

Saeed unfortunately this is true.

Aaron, very well said.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Doug W:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

I do get seriously tired of the "ethical" token thrown into the mix. Who are you/I to determine another man's ethics? We have laws to determine what's right/wrong, ethics are your own to decide!!!

Well because without ethics and a positive public image the public won't support hunting, especially high dollar trophy hunting in corrupt countries of threatened animals.
Politicians will act on that pressure and create laws possibly banning US citizens from overseas hunting, bringing back trophies, etc.

Then you will get to decide whether to comply with those laws or be a criminal and suffer the consequences.

See, ethics matter.

When I see the comments on how ethics have no place in the current conversation I cannot help but think about all the bytes that have been killed in the past condemning hunters over the legal taking of lions deemed too young by some. Ironic perhaps only to me.

Mike, you sir are a well educated man - and someone I like/respect a lot. It should take you only a minute to see the monstrous difference in the young lion issue, versus a general statement on hunting ethics!

To all - I never said one shouldn't have ethics, we all should! I said ethics are one's own, unlike laws!

Aaron,

All I can say to you is........THANK YOU

Aaron a very good post, well said

Mr. Mugabe has starved, murdered or just slaughtered 3-4 million tribesman in Zimbabwe it is my understanding. Have you heard anyone complain or yell for Mugabes hide to be nailed to the wall? This is insanity.

Agree 100% with Aaron. Give no quarter, take none, but defend. We are all in the crosshairs and ultimately I fear we will lose in the US and in Africa. However, I will fight until the end on this.

I still fall back on the lack of social conscience we feel for unborn babies being cut and sold for parts by "doctors". How in the world can people get worked up over a lion when many many rhino's and elephants are slaughtered for the Chinese fetish with ivory and witchcraft?

I am with Saeed, the world is rapidly spinning out of control toward an end we all know is coming.

I agree with your position on this, Aaron. Offense, not defense, is the only way to win the battle over hunting.

But because of the behavior of this hunter and his PH, all hunters have once again been put on defense. And there is no way to defend the indefensible.

Also, not only legality, but also ethics, are at the center of this battle. To ignore the ethical dimension of what we do, or to claim it is irrelevant, is a huge mistake.

When people say that as long as it's legal, it's okay, I am tempted to ask them what they would say or do if their daughter decided to go to Nevada and become a prostitute, or to Colorado and become a pothead.