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+1 Mike | |||
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The only reason the hunt was unethical was because it was illegal... And if you don't believe that then there are 24 other lion hunters in Zim alone that shot collared animals that you should be after on your high horses. Also I believe Mr. Neilson went to the exact same area and shot a collared lion as well. So other than not having a lion on quota the ethics part doesn't matter because it was illegal. | |||
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Michael, I'm going to disagree once again with regards to the ethics vs legalities argument. Firstly, realize that I'm NOT taking the position of "If it's legal, it's OK". Secondly, I'm limiting my argument to this specific case only as we have the legalities on our side. I know many here are not on FaceBook, but we all realize that FB is one of the carriers of this particular media virus, no? Reading the discussions there, even "informed" hunters are now stating the problem with this particular hunt was that it was conducted near a park, a collared animal, and a result of baiting. The troubling part for me is watching poster after poster refer to these ethical considerations as "Illegal". None of which is the case. It's simply more misinformation being spread this time by those many would consider to be "in the know". Hunting areas surrounding parks are an important part of preserving wildlife habitat from encroachment form farmers fields. So are we now going to start calling hunting in those areas that were set up to help manage excess animals in the park and prevent deforestation in the name of wildlife conservation ... "unethical". Baiting for cats is a widely accepted method in Africa. Is hunting cats with dogs more ethical? How many leopards are taken by tracking? Are we going to concede baiting for cats to be ... unethical? By law in Zim, collared animals are not illegal game. Would someone knowingly shoot one. Some will, some will not. But in the case of a well maned lion, what if you can't see the collar? Most cats are taken under poor lighting conditions making the identification even harder. What if an "ethical" hunter shoots a lion only to find out he didn't see the collar? Is he now ... unethical? I've weighed in on several of those FB posts and pointed out that the problem with this particular hunt is none of the above. None of these issues are illegal as is being thrown out. Misinformation. The problem was that there was no quota or permit for lion in the area. Shooting a lion without either makes it a poaching incident, pure and simple. That's a black and white fact we can stand on that does not need to be muddied by shades of grey. What is the logic for enacting additional laws on the basis of someone breaking an already existing law. Shades of the gun control debate? Driving while intoxicated debate? Is it ethical to drive when you've been drinking? No, but more importantly, IT'S ILLEGAL!! Ethics don't enter into the picture as the law takes precedence. Some here are saying that if the Ph/Land Owner/Client had used better ethics, we wouldn't be facing this backlash. But if they had just observed and obeyed the law, we wouldn't be facing this backlash either. There are collared lions taken in hunting areas near parks with baiting from time to time and we never hear of it. Why? Because they were legal hunts. Rest assured, what drove this media frenzy from the beginning is that someone within the anti agenda recognized that this hunt was conducted illegally without a quota / permit and then perps tried to hide the evidence by destroying the collar. The illegality of it gave them the moral ground to stand on and push it worldwide. From that position, they were then able to spin the other elements into a frenzy. I still believe, ON THIS PARTICULAR POACHING INCIDENT, our best defense of hunters at large is that we don't condone the breaking of game laws and will not tolerate those amongst us who do. Of course, we can "If" this and "If" that to the end of time, but it's not necessary here. The bottom line is that if the law is broken, by default it was unethical. Let me ask this question, do any of you know of "ethical" poaching incident? When an anti or non-hunter asks about this incident, they are trying to put you on defense. Turn it around and state it was illegal, pure and simple. Just like the 6 lions that were recently killed outside Tarangire National Park in western Arusha, Tanzania by villagers in retaliation of killing a couple of donkeys? Why did they not raise that poaching incident to the same level of world condemnation? Hunters everywhere condemned it. With that, you've just put them on defense, drop the mic, and walk off the stage! | |||
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Well you cant defend this cecil bs because it was not legal. You can defend the ethics of hunting a collared or name lion because he is still a lion unless you want to buy in to the bs of the anti's. So I guess if the bunny huggers decide to try and collar and name all the lions then hunting of them would stop. Use your ethics to judge your hunts dont judge others who play by the rules that are there to give us hunters the right to hunt what we can. All the problems started over a illegal hunt of a named lion that they could use to hurt us. Saying any animal is off limits because of the reason the anti's are saying now is stupid at best. Just as they try and say it was a protected lion. Protected by who and why was this lion so special. | |||
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If it is legal under Zimbabwe law to carry out this hunt on seized land and assuming there was no US restricted list. Would it be fine to hunt on stolen property? Does the legal right given by uncle Bob government to steal property remove any ethical considerations on hunting on stolen property? Mike | |||
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The problem with "ethics" is it is up to interpretation of the individual. Laws are usually concrete, except for some who like to legislate from the bench. The problem is that the hunting community is not aligned on the ethics front, and never will be. For Example, I have hunted and killed wild lion in Zim and also captive bred in RSA. I enjoyed both experiences immensely. Some hunters would absolutely lambast me for the RSA hunt. To them, my response is KMA. I know their are extremes on both ends, ie. going into an airport with an AK. It's legal, so it's OK? I don't agree with that from the extremes, but I would hardly call killing a lion in RSA an extreme. However, many would disagree. So..it benefits us to go the legal route, and that is the only way we can unite. Utopia in regards to ethics is a nice thought...but will never be practical. So why try to focus on uniting based upon individual, which will never happen, as opposed to law. | |||
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Unless I'm mistaken, it's illegal for US Citizens to do business with people of Zim who are on the blacklist. Again, following the law would preclude an discussion on ethics in that regard. Forget about "assuming there was no US restricted list" ... There IS! Check it out for yourself here: http://www.treasury.gov/resour...s/Documents/zimb.pdf | |||
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Then I would say you are being unethical to hunt anywhere in Zim.. I mean why should you support a government who steals land and murders its own people. When you hunt there your money is in fact ending up in their hands. Like it or not. So don't be unethical and hunt Zim. See all better.. We can all be really ethical now | |||
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When you argue ethics you can paint with the Broadest of brushes. Careful not to paint yourself in a corner | |||
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There has always been a trade off for most people hunting zim - support the good people and wildlife while knowing hunting dollars are flowing to uncle bob. Ethics or a standard beyond just is it legally sanctioned matter to me in hunting zim. Do I equate the good guys in zim to a Arnold Payne - f@ck no. They may both be legal zim based outfitters but the difference is night and day. Laws don't originate in random. Normally there is a strong ethical foundation to legal rights and their evolution at least in civilized socities. If we don't understand the social outrage and just hide it was legal so it's fine. Society may simply decide to take away the legal right. Mike | |||
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Tell me about the ethics of this photo. Would it have been more ethical to kill the baby also, or allow it to live after it's mother was POACHED? I say it's irrelevant as the poaching of the mother rhino was illegal to begin with.  | |||
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Aaron - although I agree with all your thoughts and sentiments, as a physician, I cannot be as "in your face" as you are about my hunting. I just can't risk what would happen to my practice if the anti's went crazy on me like they did to Palmer. I sure as hell don't post my hunting photos on the internet. | |||
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Beretta I agree wth what your saying for the most part. I was simply being extreme to point out that ethics often is a dead end arguement. It can just keep going and going until you have to make choices on what u believe to be the lesser of two evils. People hunt Zim to fund wildlife conservation and that is by my ethics the right thing to do. But I know plenty of hunters who won't go there at all and they will argue you are being unethical to even step foot in that country. And around and around we go. So the hunt was illegal period. | |||
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Same as when you take a pure black and white approach to following the law. A legalistic society with no ethical questioning can give you some pretty nasty outcomes. Mike | |||
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I just wish hunters had an organization that was "first for hunters". Oh wait never mind. | |||
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Todd my comments that you high lighted were not specific to Cecil the dead celebrity lion. "It was legal so it's fine" change to "it is legal so it's fine" - that is the argument for lion hunting and most trophy hunting in africa. It's a legal activity where one with money can partake in it. My fear is if society starts to view it in a different light and simply takes away the right or elements of the trophy hunting rights (import of trophies) Ethics matter both in how we as hunters behave in our community and in how society views us. Mike | |||
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I notice a couple of other Canadians have stuck their noses into this party... so it may be safe for me to make a few remarks as well. First off: Congratulations to Aaron Neilson for a clear and unequivocal response to this whole mess. I detest speculative opinions. I need facts and, as of now, some are missing. It's a matter of interest to me because in the longer haul it will impact my passion: hunting black bear over bait. I've been doing it for 30+ years sequentially. I'd estimate that's somewhere between 300 to 400 days afield in the pursuit of bears. So, I suspect that qualifies me to know something about them and what is involved in harvesting them. Not lions, but bears. I don't shoot everyone I see or encounter, but I've taken my share in legal hunts. I refer to that only to make a couple of points: 1) After having hired an outfitter for 8 seasons, I've been doing it on my own each year since, sometimes others get involved but not always. Two guys who have worked with me for recent years have both worked for The Ministry of Natural Resources (MNR), one as an Enforcement Officer and the other as an agent doing various contractual jobs, like deciding what happened when domestic animals, like cattle, sheep, etc, have been killed by wildlife -- and deciding the compensation. He is also a horseman and a sheep farmer, so he knows both domestic and wild animals. Plus his wife is a Dr.Vet. who works for the Government of Ontario in matters relative to disease control among both domestic and wild animals. So he is a library of knowledge on animal life. Yesterday, as we were checking and refreshing bear baits for the upcoming bear hunt, he asked if I was aware of "the lion kill by the American dentist". Then, this a.m., over breakfast with another friend, he assumed I knew some things. He was in agriculture for many years so is sympathetic to hunting. 2)And, I just posted a blog about some of the difficulties associated with bear hunting over baits these days due to a climate of change in our culture that has forced changes in legislation that affects how I do the "business" of hunting over baits. And when hunting moose in Northern Ontario, for example, one isn't always sure that you've not crossed the border of your WMU into an adjacent WMU because there are no clear signs indicating that! Those borders don't always fall on highways or rivers on an official map! So, if I shoot a moose in WMU 32, 50 meters from the border of WMU 33 for example, when my license is for WMU 33, and the border isn't clearly indicated in a physical sense, am I going to say I shot it in 32? Maybe I don't honestly know, unless I've hired an outfitter who should know -- then perhaps he's unsure! I can hunt wolf and coyote from Sept 15 to March 31 of following year, on a small game license in the jurisdiction I'm currently hunting bear in. Across the road on the other side, I can hunt wolf/coyote 12 months of the year and my two buddies didn't know that! For me, the jury is still out on Mr. Palmer. You can read my blog for further information on some of these issues which are fast becoming global. Bob www.bigbores.ca "Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT) | |||
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