The Accurate Reloading Forums
Which one or does it make a difference?
16 January 2008, 07:33
Wildlife ArtistWhich one or does it make a difference?
I'm curious of your thoughts on this matter.
Here are two different cartridges which I won't name but I will give their basic ballistics.
I got their numbers from a 1975 Petersen's Hunting Annual.
All things being the same (making a accurate shot on the same spot of the animal) is the difference in these numbers great enough to make a difference in which one you would choose. The game would be buff and Ele's.
Cartridge #1
2640 fps----4550 energy all numbers are from the muzzle.
Cartridge #2
2330 fps----4840lbs energy all numbers are from the muzzle.
#1 is 310 fps faster than #2
#2 hits 290lbs harder than #1
What are your thoughts.
16 January 2008, 07:46
SGraves155That would make #1 a 300gr (likely .375?) and #2 would have to be a 400gr (458 win?)? If nothing else is on the menu, the 458, but with 450gr or 500gr.
16 January 2008, 08:10
xm15e2m41.375 h&h, and 2.416 rigby ?????
Don't have time to turn any pages to make a more educated guess.
I go with the slower/heavier bullet. I have been swayed to believe in large frontal area,penetration, and energy on large game.
Who cares about fps on large game now that the theory that slower tends to penetrate better seems to be a truth.
But if we were talking deer at 300-500 yds I'd vote for 90Gr at 3440fps (25-06).
I follow Rule #62.
16 January 2008, 08:26
Wildlife ArtistHi Steve
I did not mean to start a guessing game but thats ok. Your guesses are not them. Good guesses though
I threw these numbers out with out naming them to avoid any stigmas or prejudices against them. I will list them at another time.
I was curious to see if you all think there is enough difference in these two to pick one over the other. If the difference in the numbers are to large or small.
16 January 2008, 08:30
Wildlife Artistxm15e2m4
Good info but will 290 lbs of energy make that big of difference?
I like the guesses so far
16 January 2008, 09:38
SaeedI suggest you use both, and ask the buffalo which one they would prefer!
17 January 2008, 01:13
AlloutWouldn't make a difference I wouldn't think, given proper shot placement of course.
Brian
"If you can't go all out, don't go..."
17 January 2008, 01:25
JefffiveIsn't the difference basically two shots with a .22 Long Rifle??
Would either animal notice the difference?
"If you’re innocent why are you taking the Fifth Amendment?”- Donald Trump
17 January 2008, 02:14
bulldog563#2
17 January 2008, 02:25
kududePersonally, I'd rather use the 2d because based upon the paucity of info provided, to get that many foot pounds of energy at 2330, it has to be a pretty heavy bullet in a good sized bore. This is a much better choice. Velocity, it terms of flat shooting, isn't an issue at the ranges one shoots elephant or buffalo.
In fact, the elephant I took was taken with a 416 Howell using a 400grain bullet at about that velocity. I'd use that same rifle for buffalo if I get the opportunity. Kudude
17 January 2008, 03:43
DB BillWell #1 is probably a 300gr bullet probably fired out of a .375 RUM (or maybe the new Ruger)and the 2nd is probably a 400gr bullet fired out of somehting like a .416 RemMag or .416 Taylor or perhaps a .416 Rigby...or even the Ruger necked up I guess.
And, muzzle energy never killed anything, what does is a good bullet designed for the task and then proper placement.
Just like the military...in the proper place, at the proper time, and in the proper uniform. One of two without the other doesn't get the job done.
DB Bill aka Bill George
17 January 2008, 04:20
PeglegI would think that cartridge number 2 would be my pick because, without running the numbers, I would think it creates more momentom. I think this ballistic measurement is often overlooked in many guys eyes.
The only easy day is yesterday!
17 January 2008, 04:32
GarBy#2 no question. You said buff and elephant.....2300 fps is fast enough for the right bullet. Faster is not better for the animals you mention IMO.
Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC
17 January 2008, 04:36
JudgeGTraditionally, a ballistic coefficent of .300, a muzzle energy of over 4100 ft. lbs, a diameter of at least 9.3mm and a velocity of at least 2100 were magic figures. The problem with your question is that you don't have but two of the four factors included in your inquiry.
For instance, a .458 Win Mag can send 350 grain bullets down range at wonderful velocity and with high energy, but it doesn't have the sectional density most desire to get deep penetration.
There are trade offs that change the matrix when you add or reduce weight, shoot smaller diameter bullets, etc. A 270 grain .375 doesn't make the .300 sectional density, no matter what the energy.... a 350 grain bullet will... that's one reason I like heavier better, btw.
That's why more folks just stick with the .375 H&H with 300 grain bullets... or the .458 Win Mag with 450 to 500 grain bullets. They fit all four criteria with modern loads.
JudgeG ... just counting time 'til I am again finding balm in Gilead chilled out somewhere in the Selous.
17 January 2008, 06:36
Michael RobinsonAssuming similar bullets, i.e., similar sectional density and construction, and sufficient caliber, I say no difference.
Mike
Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer.
17 January 2008, 07:00
Willquote:
Originally posted by Pegleg:
I would think that cartridge number 2 would be my pick because, without running the numbers, I would think it creates more momentom. I think this ballistic measurement is often overlooked in many guys eyes.
Who knows really what kills. But momentum is what John Taylor hung his hat on. Who can prove him wrong?
-------------------------------
Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.
---------------------------------------
and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR
_________________________
"Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped.
“Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped.
red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com
_________________________
If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go.
17 January 2008, 07:43
JudgeGWhich of Newton's laws is it? Momentum? Objects at rest tend to stay at rest. Objects in motion tend to stay in motion.... but what about drag being geometric progession? Heck, you don't have to figure out all that stuff, you just have to buy proven ammo or handload proven bullets in conventional weights, velocities, powders, load, etc.
JudgeG ... just counting time 'til I am again finding balm in Gilead chilled out somewhere in the Selous.
17 January 2008, 07:46
Saeedquote:
Originally posted by Will:
quote:
Originally posted by Pegleg:
I would think that cartridge number 2 would be my pick because, without running the numbers, I would think it creates more momentom. I think this ballistic measurement is often overlooked in many guys eyes.
Who knows really what kills. But momentum is what John Taylor hung his hat on. Who can prove him wrong?
John Taylor is wrong.
Destruction of vital organs that kills. It makes no difference if you do that with 100 foot pounds of energy or 10,000.
It does not matter whether you do it with 300 grain 375 caliber bullet, or 1,000 grain from a 900 Taylor Humongous Monster.
17 January 2008, 07:54
Mike_DettorreWell it moght be helpful sectional density of the projectile.
MikeLegistine actu quod scripsi?
Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.
What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
17 January 2008, 08:12
Wildlife ArtistSaeed that was a good one! Your reply is true. It all boils down to what happens when the bullet hits the correct spot and how the animal reacts.
I want to thank all of you that took the time to give your input on this question.You did great for having little info.
Please forgive me for thae lack of info on these two cartridges but it's all I had to show.
You guys are sharp!!!!
Thank you for teaching me a thing or two.
The cartridges are.
#1 9.3x64 Brenneke with a 293 grn bullet
#2 404 Jeffrey with a 400 grn. bullet
Please tell me more.
Thanks
Steve
17 January 2008, 15:21
Willquote:
Originally posted by Saeed:
quote:
Originally posted by Will:
quote:
Originally posted by Pegleg:
I would think that cartridge number 2 would be my pick because, without running the numbers, I would think it creates more momentom. I think this ballistic measurement is often overlooked in many guys eyes.
Who knows really what kills. But momentum is what John Taylor hung his hat on. Who can prove him wrong?
John Taylor is wrong.
Destruction of vital organs that kills. It makes no difference if you do that with 100 foot pounds of energy or 10,000.
It does not matter whether you do it with 300 grain 375 caliber bullet, or 1,000 grain from a 900 Taylor Humongous Monster.
Saeed,
I can't believe you said that.
All else being equal, in comparing bullet performance it is a difference in momentum (probably
).
Same type of bullet, same game, same shot, the momentum (and energy) difference will be a good indication of the differences in the end result, whether it is tissue destruction or knockdown or knockout.
Otherwise, why not shoot a 375 H&H or a 350 Rigby rather than your 375 (404/375) on steriods?
-------------------------------
Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.
---------------------------------------
and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR
_________________________
"Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped.
“Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped.
red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com
_________________________
If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go.
17 January 2008, 15:29
SaeedBill,
Very siumple really.
I have discovered that a wildcat of my own design, using a bullet I made myself, kills infinitely better than any cartridge a factory makes.
Even Holland and Holland cannot come close to the killing power of my own wildcat, when I am shooting it
18 January 2008, 05:26
tradmarkinterestingly enough, according to taylor's KO values, john elway throwing a football has a higher KO value than a 458 wm.
18 January 2008, 06:00
465H&HAlthough the energy numbers indicate near parity between these cartridges, when you consider hunting elephant and buffalo the 404 is a known stopper (although somewhat marginal on ele) and the 9.3 is definitely not a stopper. You must look at bullet frontal area as well.
4645H&H
19 January 2008, 01:04
WillYeh, old John Boy figured that out many moons ago.
-------------------------------
Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.
---------------------------------------
and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR
_________________________
"Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped.
“Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped.
red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com
_________________________
If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go.