I was in Mwanja Camp, Chewore North last month, and listened to a conversation between PHs Buzz Charlton and Ian Gibson. Gibbo said that he had never observed any real difference between smaller/larger calibers on near-miss brain shots on eles. Buzz disagreed, saying that he had seen larger calibers provide more "cushion" on near misses. Personally, I ain't about to argue with either of them! On my hunt, I put a 500gr .470 solid through a young tuskless cow on a side-brain attempt, missing under the brain by about 2 inches. The cow showed all the immediate reactions of a perfect hit, but we were forced to retreat immediately without putting in an insurance shot, as the rest of the small herd charged us. About 5 minutes later, the cow was up and needed to be finished off. Draw your own conclusions. BTW, in the argument re. round nose or flat nose solids, it seems that we have all forgotten that FN solids do not always feed well in a bolt gun. A jammed .505 is no better than a club!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Just had an idea.

We might add some modeling clay to the equation.

I got some modelling clay, and tomorrow I will see how it works with the 22 rim fires.

Saeed,
For a world standard penetration medium for us commoners you need to think cheap.

1-dollar per square foot MDF board is good.
10-dollar per square foot rubber board, not so good.
20-dollar per square foot Italian polyethylene kitchen cutting boards: That's funny!

quote:

it seems that we have all forgotten that FN solids do not always feed well in a bolt gun

All FN bullets are not designed equally. Some were designed by gunsmiths and, if they give feeding problems, the rifle needs fixing.

modeling clay



Contain it well (but losely). A 22 will make it look like it was hit with a 45ACP. A large caliber will make it react like it was hit with a 40mm Bofors. Fired a total of 4 rounds into 150# in my tank. Blew the doors open and plastered the ceiling. It also comes back at you violently, ask Wayne van Zwoll, he's the one that was picking it out of his teeth. Took that stuff and used it to plug prairie dog holes.

Todd,

quote:

Gerard: This reminds of an elephant cow that was hit four or five times with so called 'stoppers' and still ran around.
As for stopping a charge with a firearm, stopping is often done by shouting and waving, throwing stones and other means. Where would that be on a 'stopping power' index?

quote:

Todd: Myth? Really? Then can you please explain what happened in the Mike Jines and Buzz Charlton charge video where Mike and Buzz "STOPPED" the charge at just a few paces, then the ele got up and ran away, requiring further follow up shots to kill her. Clearly the guys "STOPPED" the charge without outright killing her.

I did explain, in the post above yours, to which you replied.

Alf,

quote:

At what distance does low tractability become a problem? I have asked this question many, many times and you have never answered. There will be no more talk until you have answered this question.

I will make it easier for you. Is it 100m, 200m, 300m, 400m, 500m, what? To the nearest 100m will do. If you want to make it caliber bound, that is also ok.

Well, we got the rubber, and it seems to be tougher than either the plastic or the wood!

Anyone has any idea what else we can use?

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:
Todd,

quote:

Gerard: This reminds of an elephant cow that was hit four or five times with so called 'stoppers' and still ran around.
As for stopping a charge with a firearm, stopping is often done by shouting and waving, throwing stones and other means. Where would that be on a 'stopping power' index?

quote:

Todd: Myth? Really? Then can you please explain what happened in the Mike Jines and Buzz Charlton charge video where Mike and Buzz "STOPPED" the charge at just a few paces, then the ele got up and ran away, requiring further follow up shots to kill her. Clearly the guys "STOPPED" the charge without outright killing her.

I did explain, in the post above yours, to which you replied.

I don't remember them doing much waving. Maybe some shouting. Mainly just throwing a few 400gr and 570gr "STONES". I think it was those "STONES" that got the job done!!

quote:

stopping is often done by shouting and waving, throwing stones and other means. Where would that be on a 'stopping power' index?

Come on Todd, stop playing dumb. Or have you never seen a PH do this?

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:

quote:

stopping is often done by shouting and waving, throwing stones and other means. Where would that be on a 'stopping power' index?

Come on Todd, stop playing dumb. Or have you never seen a PH do this?

Gerard, that was YOUR statement, not mine. Seriously fella, I can't figure you out. You supposedly make a good bullet, but your theories here ...

Tell you what Gerard, you can have the last word. But I will say this for the record. That Buzz Charlton / Mike Jines video clip, clearly knocked the elephant in full charge down, without killing it. It got up and ran afterword. To me that is indisputable evidence that "Stopping Power" exists. It was "Stopped" when it was knocked down. The charge was "Stopped". Furthermore, I personally have knocked down 3 elephant with a head shot that at least 2 would have gotten up if not given the insurance. That proved to me that "Stopping Power" exists.

What is your own, personal experience with shooting elephants? I imagine that if you have done very much of it, you will have also seen these same results. They are not uncommon at all!

Elephant can be 'stopped' from charging by:
a. shouting and waving,
b. throwing stones,
c. waving long objects,
d. firing deliberately missed shots at it,
e. shooting to hit it and hitting it badly,
f. shooting and hitting it badly enough times and
g. by shooting at it and hitting a cns element or by crushing a skeletal element essential for movement.

The only way of ensuring that the elephant will not return is by the last option. Anything else is just varying degrees of beating on it. Beat on it enough and it will lose consciousness. Beat on it some more and it will die.

So 'stopping' an elephant can be done with any caliber of sufficient power if the miss is close enough. Bigger is not necessarily better unless one believes so and the mind is a powerful persuader.

Gerard is right.

All the points he mentioned CAN stop an elephant charge.

They might not work every time, but, at one time or another, all of them have proven to stop a charge.

The last one is the only one which guarantees it.

I have started our penetration test, and whoever mentioned that it is going to be a tough test, he was right.

At my friend Dr. Ron's suggestion, I started with the 375.

I wasn't sure at what velocity I should start, but thought of satisfying the old geezers who still believe of slow bullets, and started at 2200 fps.

As usual, we have an endless argument here with our residence genius.

I was going to use a 375H&H, and was looking at the loading data from the Nosler #6 Reloading Manual.

They specify that Winchester's 760 as giving them the highest velocity in this caliber with the 300 grain bullet.

They had three loads

78 grains - 2600 fps
76 grains - 2560 fps
74 grains - 2520 fps.

I got my calculator and tried to work out how much powder I should use to get 2200 fps. I thought I should use 65 grains of powder.

Walter "You are doing what you tell people NOT to do! Why are you using so little powder?The book says 74 is the minimum you should use"

"That is what Mr. Nosler says. And I want to start with lower velocity than they show in there"

"Then why don't you use a different powder? I have been watching you make ammo for so many years, and you always confuse me"

"No Walter, I don't confuse you, YOU confuse yourself. Now, you will see that we will get 2200 fps or very close to it. If not I can adjust my powder charge to get what I want. The first load is always a guess. So let us see what happens"

He stood looking at the chronograph as I fired the shot. The chronograph is hidden from my view, so I could not see the display.

I looked at Walter, he looked so surprised.

"Did you program the chronograph?"
"You cannot program the chronograph. Mr. Oehler did it"

"OK, how fast do you think that bullet was?"
"2200 feet a second"
"Are you sure?"
"Yes if this funny German rifle does what it is supposed to do"

"Us Germans are the best rifle makers in the world. Look, it is EXACTLY 2200 feet a second! Now do not ever complain about German made rifles"

"Sure, but this one is a normal Mauser action, look, it says K98. Not one of those silly contraptions you love"

"Say whatever you like. I LOVE my Blaser!"

Way to go Saeed!
Wring out that .375 with a soft and a solid at various velocities and it will tell you a lot.
Maybe even try the 350-grain woodleigh FMJ?
What is the rubber spec, and are you still using polyethylene and MDF boards?
I am at a loss for further ideas. Will depend on Walter's genius.

We have given up on the rubber.

It is tougher than either the wood or the plastic.

I have started a seperate thread on bullet penetration.