quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I do not think there is ANY sport hunter, living today, who can claim he has enough elephant hunting experience to tell the rest of us he knows any better.

Your exactly right Saeed, we are dealing mainly with opinion here. But when someone disparges others for having an opinion they need to be called out. I would also add to what you said to include any small custom bullet maker.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I do not think there is ANY sport hunter, living today, who can claim he has enough elephant hunting experience to tell the rest of us he knows any better.

Agree with that sentiment Saeed and I certainly wasn't trying to do that. I was just enjoying the free exchange of ideas and opinions on the subject. I do defend my positions just like everyone else, but that isn't to say I'm always right.

I do think there is enough evidence on the ability of a bullet to Knock Out an elephant instead of outright killing him. I understand in your response, that you weren't trying to stop a charge. But what I am pointing out is that you missed the brain and the animal was knocked out long enough for you to go up and put in the final brain shot to kill it. This is due to the fact that the bullet passed close enough to the CNS to shock the brain and temporarily disrupt it's function, similar to the way a boxer gets knocked out in the boxing ring.

We see this knock out effect and requirement for the finishing brain shot all the time with elephant. Nyschens and Bell wrote extensively of eles that appeared dead only to get up later and run off. Bell described it as an ele on the ground that did not exhibit the proper "signs of death" such as stiff and rotating legs along with body quivers. All of the ele hunting DVD's on the market show this to be common.

So if it is possible to temporarily disrupt the CNS with a bullet, it seems obvious that a larger blow would achieve the effect more reliably and easily. Where I see the advantage to the larger caliber bullet is in it's ability to achieve this effect with a CNS miss that is a bit further off due to creating a larger wound channel. Not using these numbers as absolutes but rather for comparison purposes. If a CNS miss of 2" with a 375 will knock out an ele in the manner we are speaking of, then certainly a 500NE will also. But what if the miss is 4"? Is it possible that the 375 would not knock it out at that miss distance while the 500NE would? I think so and I think there is enough video as well as practical evidence to support that opinion.

On Buzz's first DVD, he states that the larger caliber gives a greater margin of error for a near miss. He also states that the margin for error is larger on a cow than it is on a bull. When it comes to elephant hunting, I certainly listen to what Buzz has to say as he hunts more eles in a season than many PH's will during their entire career. He recently moved up from the 416 to a 500. Ivan Carter also recently went up from a 450NE to either a 577 or 600. I've heard both but I thought I heard him say the 577 when I spoke to him in person a while back. I don't see these highly experienced elephant PH's moving down to the 375 stating that they can more accurately hit the brain and therefore that is where they are placing their bets. I see them moving UP to the largest caliber they can effectively handle. That speaks volumes to me.

465H&H,
The bottom line is that you have not used GSC FN bullets while I have tested with every conceivable make except CEB. Yes, including Hydros and some makes you probably have not heard of. Just because you only see the tip of the iceberg and therefore have no idea what we do or how wide we supply bullets, does not entitle you to a valid opinion on our product. We make more than 260 different bullets and have been in business making bullets since 1983. Turned monos since 1992 and probably the most copied designs currently on the market. You have no idea and, saying that going from 300gr to 270gr in a 375H&H is going backwards, confirms that.

You talk of arrogance, you should look towards yourself. You know nothing of our business and you know nothing of our product. We may be a small custom manufacturer but we have a base of experience that is the envy of the industry.

However, go ahead and ignore gravity. It will not make gravity go away.

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:
465H&H,
The bottom line is that you have not used GSC FN bullets while I have tested with every conceivable make except CEB. Yes, including ...

Hi Gerard!

Long time since we talked.

Every bullet design is a mass of decisions and trade-offs, so it's hard for me to say definitively that one bullet is better than another. It really depends on the game, the presentation, and many other variables. However, I've used Gerard's bullets and it is hard to find a better FN monometal than his.

I stopped using them due to unreliable shipping from RSA, and for no other reason.

Having said all that: "Chill, Gerard, chill!" I've got a lot of respect for both of you.

Gerard,

I never said I have used your bullets nor did I say they don't act the way you say they do. What I said was that a 270 grain .375 solid bullet does not have the stopping power of a 350 grain .375 solid bullet. I will stand by that statement. By the way, I have used the CEB #13 as well as the Hydro, the North Fork, Hornady DGS, Woodleigh RN solid, Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer and First Generation Hornady Steel solids on elephant and buffalo. No GS Customs as they are not readily available here. So I do not comment on their effectiveness.

465H&H

quote:

465H&H: What I said was that a 270 grain .375 solid bullet does not have the stopping power of a 350 grain .375 solid bullet.

When dealing with round nosed, jacketed solids you are probably right. When dealing with turned FN solids, you are not. That is what I said and you took issue with it. There is a difference and one should not confuse one with the other.

quote:

465H&H: going to a 270 grain FN solid to increase penetration even more will result in a further reduction of stopping power of which it is short! In my opinion that is going backwards.

quote:

465H&H: No GS Customs as they are not readily available here. So I do not comment on their effectiveness.

Hi Don, You give good advice. Thanks, I will leave it alone.

Raping the basic primary tenants of physics again are we ?

If you shoot two FN projectiles of equal contstruction and design but of different mass say one a 300 gr and the other a 270 gr but with differing velocity but same momentum at at the same target the bullet with heavier mass will outpenetrate the lighter bullet. ( if both remain intact and both remain stable) The target defined as a visco elastic solid with all that the terms viscous elastic and solid state entails.

It is not conjecture it is not a opinion it is fact, it is based on a primay rule of physics .


It is a primary physical rule that has been proven by experiment and is evident around us in nature, it is undisputed .... if it were not so then all we believe in as it pertains to our physical world does not exist !

So one can quote as many anecdotal hunters tales as one likes, one can be the shooter of a million elephants, and claim the contrary based on this, fact remains.

Velocity does not trump mass when it comes to drag, Mass rules in the penetration game....... the true meaning of mass ie that amount of matter is no better illustrated in this simple excercise.

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:

quote:

465H&H: What I said was that a 270 grain .375 solid bullet does not have the stopping power of a 350 grain .375 solid bullet.

When dealing with round nosed, jacketed solids you are probably right. When dealing with turned FN solids, you are not. That is what I said and you took issue with it. There is a difference and one should not confuse one with the other.

quote:

465H&H: going to a 270 grain FN solid to increase penetration even more will result in a further reduction of stopping power of which it is short! In my opinion that is going backwards.

quote:

465H&H: No GS Customs as they are not readily available here. So I do not comment on their effectiveness.

Hi Don, You give good advice. Thanks, I will leave it alone.

Gerard,

With all due respect, how have you measured stopping power to determine that your statement is correct? Can you show us the data? If what you say is true a .22 caliber 60 grain FN solid at 4,000 fps will have more stopping power than a 350 grain .375 RN solid at 2,150 fps.

465H&H

Alf,

quote:

Raping the basic primary tenants of physics again are we ?

The word is tenets.

quote:

If you shoot two FN projectiles of equal contstruction and design but of different mass say one a 300 gr and the other a 270 gr but with differing velocity but same momentum at at the same target the bullet with heavier mass will outpenetrate the lighter bullet. ( if both remain intact and both remain stable)

There you go again with 'if all is equal' which it never is. Let me illustrate: Will the bullet with a higher stability factor not yaw less in flight? That is what you said, not so? With less yaw on impact and therefore less angle of attack, will the start of the penetration event not be more likely to present a smaller wetted area and less drag? Which penetrates better, a cylinder form or a cone? These are all properties which do not remain the same in real life. All can never be equal. Less yaw, smaller wetted area and higher speed translate to better penetration and these are all properties of the lighter bullet. So stick your raping up your @#$ and get some mileage done where it is dusty and the technology has advanced beyond incomplete theory.

quote:

It is not conjecture it is not a opinion it is fact, it is based on a primay rule of physics . It is a primary physical rule that has been proven by experiment and is evident around us in nature, it is undisputed .... if it were not so then all we believe in as it pertains to our physical world does not exist !

When taken in isolation and 'all else is equal', which it never is.

quote:

Velocity does not trump mass when it comes to drag, Mass rules in the penetration game....... the true meaning of mass ie that amount of matter is no better illustrated in this simple excercise.

See above and tell these guys they are dreaming and that speed has nothing to do with penetration. http://www.470mbogo.com/PenetrationComparison.html

465H&H,

quote:

how have you measured stopping power to determine that your statement is correct? Can you show us the data? If what you say is true a .22 caliber 60 grain FN solid at 4,000 fps will have more stopping power than a 350 grain .375 RN solid at 2,150 fps.

Your sums are way off so I don't know on what you base that statement, probably energy or sd, both of which are outdated, but we get the drift. You answer the question yourself. Stopping power does not exist, you are right.

quote:

Hi Don, You give good advice. Thanks, I will leave it alone.

I am sorry Don, these guys make it very difficult.

I am going to run a bullet penetration test.

We have all the calibers, from 17 all the way to 700. And we have bullets from all the major manufacturers. We can try all reasonable velocities.

One thing, though, I am not too sure off.

What do we use for penetration media.

We are shooting in an underground tunnel, so whatever is used has to be readily available, and easy to clean off afterwards.

I am thinking of using chipboards, cut into about 15x15 inches, and placed in a long box several feet long, with space between each two.

Y'all choose your own roads - When the going gets rough I prefer to confront the problem with a 500NE than a 375H&H - Period.

Wonder whatever happened to SD/Impact values; also just cannot figure out why all the NE calibers travel at around 2150fps and not more.

MacD37: Your wise and respected words of wisdom would be most welcomed and highly appreciated.

Saeed,
That is a difficult one. Any medium will 'test' only what the bullet looks like afterwards and what it does in that particular medium. Some media will give a representative simulation of penetration depth but the 'wound channel' will not be the same as in tissue.

The downside of building material such as sand, cement and wood is that bullets are designed to work in tissue. When shot in building material, bullets act differently and may not act the way they do in tissue. Some material, like sand and clay, will tend to keep a bullet together and a false picture is built of the performance of the bullet.

Anything close to representative of tissue will be messy, unfortunately.

Gerard:

Your logic defies any attempt at an answer:

So then by your reasoning why not simply shoot a 200 gr bullet or even better why not simply shoot the damn Elepant with a fast stepping 22 ?

Why then bother with all the heavy artillery when hunting big game ?

As to the statements regarding energy and SD that are outdated ?

Where on earth do your get that from ?

It is all about energy ! Newton saw to that !

quote]465H&H,

quote:
how have you measured stopping power to determine that your statement is correct? Can you show us the data? If what you say is true a .22 caliber 60 grain FN solid at 4,000 fps will have more stopping power than a 350 grain .375 RN solid at 2,150 fps.

"Gerard response"
"Your sums are way off so I don't know on what you base that statement, probably energy or sd, both of which are outdated, but we get the drift. You answer the question yourself. Stopping power does not exist, you are right."

Gerard:

You said the following above in answer to my question below.

465H&H: What I said was that a 270 grain .375 solid bullet does not have the stopping power of a 350 grain .375 solid bullet.

Gerard: When dealing with round nosed, jacketed solids you are probably right. When dealing with turned FN solids, you are not. That is what I said and you took issue with it. There is a difference and one should not confuse one with the other.

A tacit admittal on your part that stopping power exists.

Now you say:

Gerard:

"Your sums are way off so I don't know on what you base that statement, probably energy or sd, both of which are outdated, but we get the drift. You answer the question yourself. Stopping power does not exist, you are right."

What sums did I give? None that I see. Your arguing in circles again!

You have again avoided answering a direct question. You have made statements saying that you have measured stopping power but so far have failed to give any data from these measurements or to detail what your methodology was. I suspect your change in mind, now saying stopping power doesn't exist is a way to avoid answering the question on how you tested stopping power.

465H&H

Alf,

quote:

Will the bullet with a higher stability factor not yaw less in flight?

465H&H,

quote:

Gerard: When dealing with round nosed, jacketed solids you are probably right. When dealing with turned FN solids, you are not.

quote:

465H&H: A tacit admittal on your part that stopping power exists.

I see 'probably' and I see 'you are not'. If that is a tacit admittal in your book, I must ask what is your definition of 'yes' and 'no'?

quote:

465H&H: What sums did I give? None that I see. Your arguing in circles again!

These sums here:

quote:

465H&H: If what you say is true a .22 caliber 60 grain FN solid at 4,000 fps will have more stopping power than a 350 grain .375 RN solid at 2,150 fps.

I've always heard that energy is less a part of the equation in killing power on dangerous game than shot placement and penetration is. The reason I would use a larger caliber than a smaller one is for the sake of penetration (in the form of momentum). If a certain cartridge has enough penetration to reach the CNS from all angles and it is legal for dangerous game, I would feel comfortable with that caliber. If the game is being shot up close in thick brush, I would want more than the minimum legal caliber. That's because I don't have enough experience hunting dangerous game at spitting distance and I would not feel comfortable with anything less than .458 caliber. For this reason, I own a .375 H&H for an all-purpose gun and a .470 Nitro Express for scary stuff up close. I personally am not good enough with the .470 yet to be tackling scary things up close (as in elephant) but plan to be at that stage some time in the future. I am guessing that the 350 grain Woodleigh solid has enough penetration to reach the CNS from any angle if the 300 grain solids can completely penetrate an elephants skull from any angle.
Thanks for all the replies.

jfm

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:
A 375 does not have enough stopping power on dangerous game, no matter what bullet weight you use.

NONSENSE. Why wax eloquent when one word covers that ridiculous statement...

Gerard,

I understand what you mean.

But, I am hoping that our test will give an indication of how different bullets, at different velocities, perform in the same material.

One suggestion I got was to use a 3 layer system.

One layer of chipboard, one layer of modelling clay and one layer of plastic chopping board.

Penetration and stopping power are 2 separate issues.

Penetration to achieve CNS and produce a killing shot are not exactly what the large bores were designed to do even though they are more than capable of doing so at shorter distances and is the reason why these large bores are truly effective and accurate at distances up to 75yds but lethal at ranges between 10-30yds.

If the CNS is missed at this distance the impact is sufficient to stun, turn or even drop the quarry and allow for an immediate following shot to square the account.

This is what stopping power is all about, not the one-shot kill - it is also the reason why the 500NE has something in the region of an extra 1500ft/lbs over the 375H&H - Ah! or is it that some of us are shy of recoil (which is not as wicked as some make it out to be).

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:


But, I am hoping that our test will give an indication of how different bullets, at different velocities, perform in the same material.

There is only about 250 pages of these exact tests right here on this forum. It is now a sticky on the Big Bore Rifle Forum. Michael458 and Srose did all the work.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
Penetration and stopping power are 2 separate issues.

Penetration to achieve CNS and produce a killing shot are not exactly what the large bores were designed to do even though they are more than capable of doing so at shorter distances and is the reason why these large bores are truly effective and accurate at distances up to 75yds but lethal at ranges between 10-30yds.

If the CNS is missed at this distance the impact is sufficient to stun, turn or even drop the quarry and allow for an immediate following shot to square the account.

This is what stopping power is all about, not the one-shot kill - it is also the reason why the 500NE has something in the region of an extra 1500ft/lbs over the 375H&H - Ah! or is it that some of us are shy of recoil (which is not as wicked as some make it out to be).

No such thing as brush bucking with any bullet.
Bigger bores might be better at breaking big bones in the south ends of north bound game.
That is their only claim to stopping power.
Better to place the first shot properly and not have to deal with imaginary stopping power.
Use .375 to .510 caliber range, anything bigger is just stunt shooting.

When I was doing Iron Water Board Buffalo Interrogation of bullets,
the GSC .375/300-grain FN bullet would penetrate farther than the GSC .375/270-grain FN, even when the 300-grainer went 2500 or 2700 fps and the 270-grainer went 2700 or 2900 fps.



I would like to know at what velocities the 270-grain FN penetrates better in game than the 300-grain FN.
How do you have to stack that deck?

In any case, the difference between the two FN solid bullets' penetration is small,
but far better than a RN FMJ of any weight.

RN FMJ .375-caliber/350-grain bullet: Silly.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
Penetration and stopping power are 2 separate issues.

Penetration to achieve CNS and produce a killing shot are not exactly what the large bores were designed to do even though they are more than capable of doing so at shorter distances and is the reason why these large bores are truly effective and accurate at distances up to 75yds but lethal at ranges between 10-30yds.

If the CNS is missed at this distance the impact is sufficient to stun, turn or even drop the quarry and allow for an immediate following shot to square the account.

This is what stopping power is all about, not the one-shot kill - it is also the reason why the 500NE has something in the region of an extra 1500ft/lbs over the 375H&H - Ah! or is it that some of us are shy of recoil (which is not as wicked as some make it out to be).

Sadly,

Wayne used a 500 double, and it did not save him.

Putting a 300 grain 375 bullet where it counts, is infinetly better than putting a 500 grain 50 caliber bullet where it would do no good.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I am going to run a bullet penetration test.

We have all the calibers, from 17 all the way to 700. And we have bullets from all the major manufacturers. We can try all reasonable velocities.

One thing, though, I am not too sure off.

What do we use for penetration media.

We are shooting in an underground tunnel, so whatever is used has to be readily available, and easy to clean off afterwards.

I am thinking of using chipboards, cut into about 15x15 inches, and placed in a long box several feet long, with space between each two.

Saeed,
That would be worthless media.
You need to consider ordnance gelatin, wet pack news print, or possibly the bookbinders glue type blocks sold by Corbins, called SimTest or some such, IIRC. Will post link later, on the fly.
That is handy.
Melt the blocks down and re-use many times after they have been shot.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
Penetration and stopping power are 2 separate issues.

Penetration to achieve CNS and produce a killing shot are not exactly what the large bores were designed to do even though they are more than capable of doing so at shorter distances and is the reason why these large bores are truly effective and accurate at distances up to 75yds but lethal at ranges between 10-30yds.

If the CNS is missed at this distance the impact is sufficient to stun, turn or even drop the quarry and allow for an immediate following shot to square the account.

This is what stopping power is all about, not the one-shot kill - it is also the reason why the 500NE has something in the region of an extra 1500ft/lbs over the 375H&H - Ah! or is it that some of us are shy of recoil (which is not as wicked as some make it out to be).

Sadly,

Wayne used a 500 double, and it did not save him.

Putting a 300 grain 375 bullet where it counts, is infinetly better than putting a 500 grain 50 caliber bullet where it would do no good.

A miss is a miss no matter the caliber nor the grains - sadly that is what happened with Wayne.

Saeed,

I suggest that you read the the above referenced post as much of what you are seeking is probably located there. No reason to reinvent the horse.

One of the problems with using artificial testing media is that none of them so far are directly related to what happens when a bullet encounters animal tissue. It is useful in comparing one bullet against another but depending on what medium you select, you can prove just about any point that you want.

A bullet doesn't perform the same in different types of tissue. For instance one type of solid bullet may penetrate deeper in soft tissue but less in the bones of the head.

What you want to do maybe enjoyable but I am not sure how much it will really tell you.

465H&H

Funny enough, a while back we shot our Walterhog bullets into wooden boards, at different velocities.

The penetration we got correlated well with ouur experience with these bullets in the field.

We found that a velocity of 2700-2800 they penetrated best.

Lower and higher velocities did not penetrate as well.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
Penetration and stopping power are 2 separate issues.

Penetration to achieve CNS and produce a killing shot are not exactly what the large bores were designed to do even though they are more than capable of doing so at shorter distances and is the reason why these large bores are truly effective and accurate at distances up to 75yds but lethal at ranges between 10-30yds.

If the CNS is missed at this distance the impact is sufficient to stun, turn or even drop the quarry and allow for an immediate following shot to square the account.

This is what stopping power is all about, not the one-shot kill - it is also the reason why the 500NE has something in the region of an extra 1500ft/lbs over the 375H&H - Ah! or is it that some of us are shy of recoil (which is not as wicked as some make it out to be).

Sadly,

Wayne used a 500 double, and it did not save him.

Putting a 300 grain 375 bullet where it counts, is infinetly better than putting a 500 grain 50 caliber bullet where it would do no good.

So what you are saying is that if he had been using a 375, it would have saved him?

This is that same old argument that a 375 ALWAYS finds its mark and a 500 NEVER does.

Rip,

"Imaginary Stopping Power"? Can you explain the knocking down of the elephant in Mike Jines's charge video where the elephant got back up and attempted to escape after he and Buzz "Stopped" the charge? Can you explain why often the elephant gets knocked down, often unconscious, and the final killing shot to the brain is necessary. It seems to me that both of these demonstrate that it is possible to disrupt the CNS long enough to "Stop" a charge without actually killing the animal outright. If it is possible to disrupt the CNS long enough to get away from the charge, then "Stopping Power" does exist. Does it not?

It seems this, somewhat contentious discussion, is an argument looking for a problem.

We have available a plethora of first-rate, deep penetrating, DG hunting bullets. One may slightly out-perform another, but we can’t agree on how to clearly define perfect performance, what test media to use, etc.

When I’ve been hunting, which has been life-long, the major problem is finding the trophy to harvest followed by hitting the animal effectively in a vital area. I’ve used many different bullets and all have worked – that is, when I’ve done my part as a hunter and shooter.

My failures have resulted from 1) not finding the trophy (but that’s hunting) and 2) a missed shot or poor shot placement. I’ve never had a bona fide bullet failure, which includes having many times used the dastardly Sierra Game Kings and Nosler BTs – in fact, both of which have been devastating when I placed them into the vital area.

Skillful hunting and shot placement is paramount!! There are lots of good guns, bullets and calibers to use.

www.corbins.com/sim-test.htm

Saeed,
Mike Brady of North Fork used blocks of bookbinder's glue.
He said that the Corbins Sim-Test was similar.

Using only stacks of wood or composite board would be
a first-order tissue type like dry bone,
not realistic for live game.
Alternating wood boards (composite/plywood/etc.) with a block of the Sim-Test or bookbinder's glue or
ordnance gelatin:
That would be more realistic, better than any of them alone.
Better than live animals too.
You just cannot create a uniform/controlled medium for bullet impact
with live game, or dead game.
A man of your resources can surely come up with something better than
stacks of boards.
Put Walter to work melting the blocks down and moulding new ones
when they are shot up.

Todd,
A larger bullet lumbering through a skull at low velocity
in a near brain miss might not transfer as much energy to that brain
as a higher velocity .375 bullet in the same place.
Better to put that bullet in the brain.
That is the certainty.
Accuracy and facility with recovery of the shooter for followup shooting
is much more important than diameter of the bullet, after a reasonable minimum
like the .375.

Saeed makes a good point about velocity and penetration.
Of course increasing tissue resistance with velocity increase
is part of it, but also, after 2800 fps even brass FN solids
begin to expand their noses when hitting water, copper even more so,
and penetration drops from that too.

The bottom line that none of you can argue with is that GS Custom bullets of the recommended weight and length for barrel twist will out penetrate in a straight line any bullet of RN design and often some of the FN competition.

It is no accident that so many PH's trust their lives to "light weight" GS FN solids. Stability wins every time. If you dont believe it, go argue with a PH who uses them.

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
It seems this, somewhat contentious discussion, is an argument looking for a problem.

We have available a plethora of first-rate, deep penetrating, DG hunting bullets. One may slightly out-perform another, but we can’t agree on how to clearly define perfect performance, what test media to use, etc.

When I’ve been hunting, which has been life-long, the major problem is finding the trophy to harvest followed by hitting the animal effectively in a vital area. I’ve used many different bullets and all have worked – that is, when I’ve done my part as a hunter and shooter.

My failures have resulted from 1) not finding the trophy (but that’s hunting) and 2) a missed shot or poor shot placement. I’ve never had a bona fide bullet failure, which includes having many times used the dastardly Sierra Game Kings and Nosler BTs – in fact, both of which have been devastating when I placed them into the vital area.

Skillful hunting and shot placement is paramount!! There are lots of good guns, bullets and calibers to use.

AIU, for an example of a bullet that failed to do the job, go back to the second post in this thread, which was my first post. There I placed a link, relating to Randy Martin's elephant hunt, using the .375 350gr Woodleigh FMJ bullet that the OP asked about. In that hunt report, Randy placed the bullet exactly where it was supposed to go. For some reason, the bullet deflected and did not get the job done. Does that mean another bullet of a different make, weight, caliber, design, would not have done the exact same thing in that instance? No it doesn't. But the question was asked, "what experiences exist with the .375, 350gr Woodleigh, FMJ". That hunt report answered it in part. As a result, it is possible to have a bullet fail to do the job when placed correctly. I would think a shorter, more stable bullet, and IMO with a flat nose, would serve the purpose better than this particular bullet.

RIP, I just wanted to point out that there is the ability to disrupt the CNS long enough to render the animal temporarily incapacitated without outright killing it. Whether it is more effective with a slow large bore bullet or a faster medium bore bullet, we can disagree on. The answer is probably that both have their advantages under certain circumstances.

quote:

Wayne used a 500 double, and it did not save him.

Putting a 300 grain 375 bullet where it counts, is infinetly better than putting a 500 grain 50 caliber bullet where it would do no good.


So what you are saying is that if he had been using a 375, it would have saved him?

This is that same old argument that a 375 ALWAYS finds its mark and a 500 NEVER does.

I guess this has turned in to an argument which I did not mean for it to be. I do not understand the logic behind many on this post. I'm starting to think it has become a "My PP is bigger than your PP" thing. Is anyone really saying that a .375 caliber cannot get the job done when it has done that exact thing many thousands of times over the past 100 years? Now powders and projectiles are even better so what does that say? Are you really arguing with people like Saeed whom has hunted many hundreds of dangerous game animals compared to your few? The statements of people like Harry Selby, Wally Johnson or Harry Manners mean nothing to you? The recommendations to client hunters from professional hunters of the .375 H&H magnum for dangerous game means nothing to you?
Can you really disregard all of the data that proves a .375 caliber can do the job? I know a man that killed an elephant with a crossbow. Is that a bunch of baloney because it cannot happen in your eyes? Todd, Fujotupu, how many elephant have either of you taken with a .375, .416, ,458, .474 or .510 caliber cartridge to know the difference in killing power or stopping power between all of them? I guess you are both quite the rich fellows if you can spend that kind of money on so many elephant hunts that you can compare the difference in lethality between so many different calibers and cartridges. This is getting a little silly and I believe I would need some proof that one legal dangerous game cartridge is better than another in stopping power or killing power. This comes in the form of experience. Lots of it. Show me your proof! Saeed need not apply as he has the experience and capabilities to prove the lethality of all cartridges available. The rest of us do not and that is a fact. Please show us your data or remain quiet. I asked a serious question because I wanted to know the answer and many of you have turned this into a circus. Give it as rest. Please!!!

jfm

May I bring this dead horse thread to an end by throwing more gasoline? Porsche has won more Lemans victories by a looooong margin than any other marque. Yes, including Ferrari!!!

quote:

Originally posted by jfm:

quote:

Wayne used a 500 double, and it did not save him.

Putting a 300 grain 375 bullet where it counts, is infinetly better than putting a 500 grain 50 caliber bullet where it would do no good.


So what you are saying is that if he had been using a 375, it would have saved him?

This is that same old argument that a 375 ALWAYS finds its mark and a 500 NEVER does.

I guess this has turned in to an argument which I did not mean for it to be. I do not understand the logic behind many on this post. I'm starting to think it has become a "My PP is bigger than your PP" thing. Is anyone really saying that a .375 caliber cannot get the job done when it has done that exact thing many thousands of times over the past 100 years? Now powders and projectiles are even better so what does that say? Are you really arguing with people like Saeed whom has hunted many hundreds of dangerous game animals compared to your few? The statements of people like Harry Selby, Wally Johnson or Harry Manners mean nothing to you? The recommendations to client hunters from professional hunters of the .375 H&H magnum for dangerous game means nothing to you?
Can you really disregard all of the data that proves a .375 caliber can do the job? I know a man that killed an elephant with a crossbow. Is that a bunch of baloney because it cannot happen in your eyes? Todd, Fujotupu, how many elephant have either of you taken with a .375, .416, ,458, .474 or .510 caliber cartridge to know the difference in killing power or stopping power between all of them? I guess you are both quite the rich fellows if you can spend that kind of money on so many elephant hunts that you can compare the difference in lethality between so many different calibers and cartridges. This is getting a little silly and I believe I would need some proof that one legal dangerous game cartridge is better than another in stopping power or killing power. This comes in the form of experience. Lots of it. Show me your proof! Saeed need not apply as he has the experience and capabilities to prove the lethality of all cartridges available. The rest of us do not and that is a fact. Please show us your data or remain quiet. I asked a serious question because I wanted to know the answer and many of you have turned this into a circus. Give it as rest. Please!!!

jfm

JFM,

You asked a question to start this thread. People are responding with their opinions. When you come back and tell the people who are responding to your question to "remain quiet", I think you are going over the line.

If it satisfies you in any way, I have killed 3 elephant, all with the 500NE, all were close CNS misses that dropped the animals in their tracks and required a follow up shot to finish it off. I don't think you'll see anything in my posts that exaggerate that. The intent of my posts were to counter the claims that "Stopping Power" does not exist. My opinion is that there is evidence to the contrary. Some of that evidence being my own personal experience, some of it video evidence from other hunters (some of whom I know personally), and some of it historical in professional hunter's writings. Let me ask you this, do the opinions of Nyschens and Bell mean nothing to you?

Yea, I understand many PH's prefer to see a guy show up with a 375 rather than a 500NE. That is until the client demonstrates that he can actually shoot the 500NE. The PH comments about preferring the client to use a 375 is based on the fact that most will not spend the time to get proficient with the larger weapon. Sounds like you fit that description. I don't. So yea, if I am proficient with a larger caliber than the 375, I'm going to use it. And I haven't heard a single PH complain about it to date!

You asked about a certain bullet. I gave you a link to an elephant hunt report that used that very bullet you asked about. That you don't like what was reported is not my fault. I didn't wright the report.

I usually try to remain cordial and enjoy debating with other knowledgable hunters. I learn from others experiences and debate is a good way of drawing out why a person has developed a certain opinion. If he can logically defend that position, there is usually value to be had. Lord knows there is a hell of a lot more experienced guys on this forum than me and I really appreciate that fact.

But why do you resort to telling someone to "remain quiet" when no personal attacks or mud slinging is being conducted? Is it that you don't like your opinions being challenged? Did you decide that the .375 350gr Woodleigh FMJ was your bullet choice and now you object to others pointing out that there may be better choices? Here's an idea, if you don't want opinions, don't start a thread. That way, everyone will "remain silent" about whatever opinion you have formed and your opinions will not be challenged!

My one and likely only due to cost, Ele's trunk slapped his back from side brain with a 400 gr Barnes solid mounted on Norma factory, none of my miniscule four buffalo gored or tossed me and my wounded, by scope failure, lion all secummed to my rifle that starts with a four. I shall now get off this dead horse and go watch Formula I

Africa1,
Of course, how could I forget about Porsche - 16 wins in 28 years. It just seemed overshadowed by the 11 Audi wins in the last 13 years. 12 if you consider the badge engineering on the Bentley win of 2003.

Fortunately it does not change the analogy I gave.

Yeahbutt, Port E was where the
Brits got even by shipping Land Rovers to RSA !

You must see the raft of Landy jokes on one of our forums here. It is quite funny. Did you know that you get a free dog with every Landy you buy? That way you never have to walk home alone.

Todd, I asked a question regarding effectiveness of 350 grain .375 caliber Woodleigh brand solids. This turned into a .416 or .458 caliber is better thread as usual. Sorry for the rant but it gets old.

jfm