quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
If I was in my eighties I might worry.

quote:

Originally posted by muttleysgone:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
If I was in my eighties I might worry.

I am bearing down on the eighties like a runaway freight train. No worries just yet. This virus will run its course like every other virus. The earth will continue to spin on its axis once a day, it will do an orbit of the sun once a year, and I will continue to do my thing hunting and fishing. I admit I don't do it quite as energetically as I did when I was in my forties, but I still love to do it. I refuse to let fear of some virus interfere with that.

quote:

Originally posted by Clan_Colla:
If these conventions do not go on as scheduled

it may very well permanently damage both organizations beyond repair

quote:

Originally posted by Capt. Purvis:
Future is uncertain but most all of the hunting conservation organizations have taken a hit. I volunteer for Ducks Unlimited. We postponed our Convention from June to Sept in Orlando. We will loose tens of million in fundraising due to events being canceled all over the country.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:

quote:

Originally posted by Capt. Purvis:
Future is uncertain but most all of the hunting conservation organizations have taken a hit. I volunteer for Ducks Unlimited. We postponed our Convention from June to Sept in Orlando. We will loose tens of million in fundraising due to events being canceled all over the country.

Yup. I may be wrong but I think SCI gets 30% of the proceeds from the local chapters fundraisers. I think the actual events stopped I early to mid March. There were some online auctions but I can't imagine they raise the same money.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I made the original post over 2 months ago. Much to my surprise, the shutdown has been far more intense over seas than I thought it would be...

...I also wonder if we will see a seismic shift in the hunting world? Will Americans be doing a lot more hunting in the US as a result?...

quote:

Originally posted by DLS:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I made the original post over 2 months ago. Much to my surprise, the shutdown has been far more intense over seas than I thought it would be...

...I also wonder if we will see a seismic shift in the hunting world? Will Americans be doing a lot more hunting in the US as a result?...

So, Larry, I guess I picked a pretty good year to finally draw a Desert Bighorn tag?

quote:

Originally posted by DLS:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I made the original post over 2 months ago. Much to my surprise, the shutdown has been far more intense over seas than I thought it would be...

...I also wonder if we will see a seismic shift in the hunting world? Will Americans be doing a lot more hunting in the US as a result?...

So, Larry, I guess I picked a pretty good year to finally draw a Desert Bighorn tag?

quote:

But I think there will be a window to hunt Africa late in 2021.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:

quote:

Originally posted by Capt. Purvis:
Future is uncertain but most all of the hunting conservation organizations have taken a hit. I volunteer for Ducks Unlimited. We postponed our Convention from June to Sept in Orlando. We will loose tens of million in fundraising due to events being canceled all over the country.

Yup. I may be wrong but I think SCI gets 30% of the proceeds from the local chapters fundraisers. I think the actual events stopped I early to mid March. There were some online auctions but I can't imagine they raise the same money.

quote:

Originally posted by Skyline:
There is a tremendous amount of denial amongst hunters and hunter related associations/clubs etc. The simple truth is that they are looking at a aged membership which is dropping in numbers. I have been warning about this for years and everyone studiously seems to ignore it, yet good friends that are high up in these organizations know it is a REAL problem that they are all wondering/monitoring how to deal with it.

My wife and I have been in the outfitting business and guiding employment for over 40 years. Anyone paying attention knew this was coming. We sold our last outfitting business and "retired" two years ago and are actually free of the contractual stuff with selling a year ago. So sort of retired for a year.

None of us knew the Covid-19 crap was coming, but some of us (those paying attention) knew the drop in clients was coming due to the client base getting older and older and having to eventually stop. This is due to the fact that the vast majority of international trophy hunters are over 60. They are boomers.

In our last decade as outfitters we can state that the majority of our clients were over 65. My wife and I are in our early 60's and most of our clients have been older than us. I just talked to some other outfitter friends in BC last night that are offering big game hunts for moose, caribou, sheep goat, elk etc and they all said that most of the clients are "boomers", a few younger, but most of the younger clients are accompanying Dad or Grandpa who are footing the bill for the hunt.

Simple fact is that once the "boomers" have gone to the too old stage to hunt due to health issues or financial issues, this crash in clients was coming anyways. My wife and I knew this and have been watching it unfold for years.

Now factor in the latest economic crash and the Covid-19. I have spoken to many of my past clients, many who have become life long friends over the years, and they have all said to the man that they will be sucking back and reloading on the international hunts.

Many have lost disposable income due to the economic mess. Lots still had businesses rolling that they retired from but controlled and had other running....and those businesses either have been shut down or are operating at half throttle at best. They have all see their "play" money for big game hunts in Africa or North America glamour game or elsewhere evaporate.

They have all said that they will be watching the hazards of flying and traveling and for the most part do not plan on traveling in global hunts for a couple of years until they see how it all pans out. Most are in the older age class that can be seriously affected by covid. Even if money is not a problem they are all saying they will be watching the problems with Covid-19 internationally and avoiding any dangerous situations with it.

Going to conventions is not high on their priority lists now. The orgs need to really pay close attention to where things are heading to avoid big financial losses if the go the wrong way with conventions and what is being offered.

Most orgs have cancelled all conventions and chapter meetings/conventions. Some are going to online auctions as it is the only viable option. Is it ideal? No. Since all chapters have cancelled their annual conventions to raise funds and the main body of the organization needs funds to continue...well there has to be some creative work done going forward to keep everything going.

Bottom line though is all of us need to get a grip on things and where it is all heading. There are NOT a pile of young people coming in behind us and the current global issues are seriously affecting our hunting organizations going forward. The problems were coming anyways, but the Covid-19 and economic meltdown have dramatically accelerated the problems.

Wake up people. If you think that it will eventually go back to the way it was you are dreaming. The orgs have known for some time where things are going and now we have had two serious curve balls thrown our way that are compounding the problems.

quote:

Hunting in NA should not be considered a “right”, it is a privilege that should be earned by demonstrated skills and commitment.

quote:

Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:

quote:

Hunting in NA should not be considered a “right”, it is a privilege that should be earned by demonstrated skills and commitment.

dogcat: Please explain more fully. With all due respect, I'm not of the mindset that someone else should determine if I have the 'demonstrated skills and commitment', according to their subjective standards, to be able to hunt. Query: Would that mean that at some age you could be determined by someone else to not be able to hunt because of your age or ability to walk? I've known hunters in their 80s and 90s and the freedom to hunt and be free of someone else's determination is what makes U.S. hunting and the U.S. great. Why would anyone want that? Most, if not all of us have already passed a hunter safety course (mandatory in most if not all states) in order to obtain a hunting license. Why would any hunter want to add another government instituted hurdle? Just asking. And, as far as I know, we have game laws, quotas that are set by state game and in some cases federal agencies, so how are we mismanaging hunting? Moreover, all states publish their game regulations and laws and as a hunter you are expected to read them and know and understand them when going afield. Last of all, for certain species in some states, you are required to take a mandatory course to hunt that species (i.e. Desert Bighorn Sheep). I'm afraid that more regulation through a hurdle of further "demonstrated skills and commitment" would cut our hunter numbers drastically.

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:

quote:

Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:

quote:

Hunting in NA should not be considered a “right”, it is a privilege that should be earned by demonstrated skills and commitment.

dogcat: Please explain more fully. With all due respect, I'm not of the mindset that someone else should determine if I have the 'demonstrated skills and commitment', according to their subjective standards, to be able to hunt. Query: Would that mean that at some age you could be determined by someone else to not be able to hunt because of your age or ability to walk? I've known hunters in their 80s and 90s and the freedom to hunt and be free of someone else's determination is what makes U.S. hunting and the U.S. great. Why would anyone want that? Most, if not all of us have already passed a hunter safety course (mandatory in most if not all states) in order to obtain a hunting license. Why would any hunter want to add another government instituted hurdle? Just asking. And, as far as I know, we have game laws, quotas that are set by state game and in some cases federal agencies, so how are we mismanaging hunting? Moreover, all states publish their game regulations and laws and as a hunter you are expected to read them and know and understand them when going afield. Last of all, for certain species in some states, you are required to take a mandatory course to hunt that species (i.e. Desert Bighorn Sheep). I'm afraid that more regulation through a hurdle of further "demonstrated skills and commitment" would cut our hunter numbers drastically.

Use,
I have been all over the place on this issue over the years. I have written essays and articles on both sides of the issue of "is hunting a right or privilege?" and how best to regulate or control who and what goes into the field in pursuit of game.

Here are my bias's and premises before I start -

1. No one in the US and most of Canada are truly subsistence hunters. There is a huge social safety net to provide food and shelter to all who want it.
2. North America is not vulnerable to a land attack from an enemy. Any enemy cannot get here and land an army where massive civilian response in terms of a shooting war is needed.
3. Our government is our best protector and worst enemy. Being "armed" in the USA is a throwback to the Civil War when an internal revolt took place. We caused it and we, collectively executed it. However, times have changed and we really will not likely see a Bosnia type civil war totally contained in our country.

So, with that said, why do we, the USA, have such a fixation on guns, defence, etc??? Our hunting is solely for pleasure. So, if that is the case, why do we demand it be a "right" rather than a "privilege"? I realize some states have giving hunting "rights status" but is it really?

Assuming "privilege", how then do we manage it? There are rules for Air BNB's, for getting a driver's license, for building a house, etc. What is the standard for a person to be able to safely hunt using a weapon?

State run Hunter Safety courses vary greatly. I have taken one in Colorado, New Mexico and Oklahoma. The one in NM was very good, lasted 2 days, required passing a written exam and a very weak firearm proficiency test. OK and CO were a one day event taught by an NRA trainer. Good stuff but no test and no proof of learning anything. In other words, it was a check the box drill, nothing more.

In parts of Europe, a hunter must pass a written, oral and proficiency test that lasts several days. The proficiency test is extensive and involves shooting the weapon you will use in the field at stationary and moving targets. You are graded pass/fail. I think this would help in the US greatly.

The problem is not declining numbers of hunters, but hunters like me that refuse to go on public hunt areas due to the untrained and unskilled "public hunters" that see hunting on public land as a "right" and not the priviledge it is. All Americans technically own the public land - this is vastly different than anywhere in the world except Canada. What the government owns, the government controls. Look at Africa. Hunting on a concession has strict controls on access, quota and who is there. The government also makes money from it. In the US, we get a free pass on public land to do as we please as long as we have a game tag or camping permit.

I think we need to move more toward the European system of demonstrated proficiency and strictly controlled access to land for hunting purposes. The Europeans have a deeper sense of stewardship that we do in the US. A game keeper on a large tract of land will know the animals there, the numbers, where they are and what needs to be done to maintain the proper "head count". In the US and Canada, public land is loosely manageg by ariel game counts that do not really reflect game impact or the proper count. Being a government entity, they have no real motive to "get it right". In Europe and Africa, there is strong financial motive to "get it right" or the resource disappears.

As to numbers of hunters, our hunting licenses and process is far too cheap. In Colorado, I show up and buy a $30 game license then a deer tag for another $30. Out of staters are charged higher fees. Further, for "special tags", you enter the drawing system or pref point system which is not balanced and not truly reasonable other than to raise money.

How to fix? Raise the standards to be able to hunt. Make it difficult and expensive. Same for tags and licenses. Simplify the process and raise the price. We only truly value what we have to pay a lot for. Same goes for hunting.

This is a short version of what I think will work and transform our gun toting society into a more appreciative and civil place where hunting is seen as an earned privilege and tool to help wildlife.

I know this is unpopular, but we are headed toward something like this.

quote:

Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:
I'm sorry dogcat, but I still respectfully disagree with your proposals. I believe in your response that you are mixing three things, two of which are rights, with one privilege (hunting license), and claiming that they are all privileges and should therefore somehow be regulated as such, based upon alien countries that do not have those same rights. Those rights are: 1)The 2nd Amendment-which we all know is not about hunting, but an inalienable right about defending your liberties with hunting as a secondary position to that right; and, 2) The right to enter and trespass on Federal Land(which belongs to all U.S. citizens) for hunting, fishing, camping, sport shooting, etc., as long as it is not closed for specific reasons and pursuant to any state and/or federal regulations regarding the same. The only true privilege out of the three is the privilege to hunt, which requires a licensing procedure to do so, and includes mandatory hunter safety. Our 'gun toting society' is based upon the inalienable right to protect your life from any enemies of the same, and that right also includes protecting us from our government that you say is "our best protector and worst enemy". This is even more evident by the recent events occurring in the United States. Being armed in the USA is not "a throwback to the Civil War". It's actually a throwback to the American Revolution and the founding of this Country through the Declaration of Independence, the United States Constitution and its subsequent Bill of Rights, and the ability to protect yourselves from your own despotic government. You might well disagree, and that's your right to do so, and I respect that. Going on, your proposal is to make hunting in the U.S. follow the European method (Countries where it's all private land, with private animals and game keepers, with no second amendment in said European Countries and where owning any firearm is definitely a privilege under their governing laws and not a right), and to make it, as you say "difficult and expensive", "the same for tags and licenses" and "raise the price". Do you really understand what that would do to the vast majority of hunting in the U.S.? Indeed maybe you do. But, under your European scenario, there will only be hunting among the privileged few and rich. The vast majority of hunting in the U.S. today is not done by the rich and famous. Most hunting today is done by regular blue collar men and women, be it with any type of firearm or weapon. Think about those who attend the DSC Convention or the NRA Convention. I also understand non-resident fees for hunting, as I have, in the past, hunted many areas in the U.S. as a non-resident(including Colorado) and paid their high fees for the privilege to do so. I currently live, and have lived in two specific states, where the vast majority of the land is Federal public lands and open to me or you or anyone else for a number of recreational pursuits.

In closing, here's a quote from the U.S. Department of the Interior's own website:

"How does hunting help with wildlife management?
Aldo Leopold, a hunter and conservationist, wrote the book on modern-day wildlife management. The highly successful North American Wildlife Conservation Model is founded on our nation’s great hunting and fishing heritage. Some of the main tenets of wildlife stewardship include using science to develop wildlife policy, only killing wildlife for legitimate purposes such as food, and upholding the ideal of hunting as inexpensive and accessible to all -- preventing the U.S. from becoming like England where only a privileged class had the opportunity to hunt."

With all of this said, I am glad, my friend, that you and I can continue to agree to disagree through civil discourse.