quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
My fear, and hopefully it is misplaced, is that by personally intervening to halt the reopening of imports he now personally owns the elephant trophy importation issue. For him to now allow the reopening of imports to proceed it will be a decision that he and he alone will own . . . since he stopped the implementation of the new policy only he can effectively allow the new policy to move forward. That makes it less likely that he does so. Had he simply allowed the USFWS order to become effective he could defer responsibility to the USFWS, the experts at the agency, the Secretary of the Interior, etc. His personal intervention means he owns the issue politically going forward. Hard to see how that is a good thing. Sure hope I am wrong.

Agreed! Stupid move by Trump. He has now politicized the decision instead of returning to a science based decision.

+1 ...and ele hunters are a minuscule fraction of the electorate...hence the politics is tough.

Folks,

I'm incredibly disappointed in this move by Trump. Can't something be done just because it's right without it becoming a political football? This morning on local FOX NEWS they said it was elephant and lion. I'm depressed but I will write to the appropriate people and I urge everyone else to do the same.

Mark

. . . it gets worse. Not only did he tweet that he had halted the reopening of trophy imports but then he retweeted messages from Piers Morgan and Greta Van Susteren of all people praising him for doing so and with Morgan stating that "[t]rophy-hunting is repellent."

Looks like SCI's lawsuit may be the last hope . . .

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
. . . it gets worse. Not only did he tweet that he had halted the reopening of trophy imports but then he retweeted messages from Piers Morgan and Greta Van Susteren of all people praising him for doing so and with Morgan stating that "[t]rophy-hunting is repellent."

Looks like SCI's lawsuit may be the last hope . . .

I agree but am not overly enthusiastic about that either.

President Trumps reversal only indicates to me that my stance that we as a very small, insignificant demographic simply do not possess the voice or political clout needed was accurate.

Just think about what a small demographic (votes) we represent. Science be damned, Solid conservation be damned, political capital is all that matters anymore. Let say there are 10,000 American who go shoot an Elephant every year. I think thats 5 times more than there are but just for argument, say 10K. Divided that up by political districts. You soon see, the number is statistically ZERO.

We have killed the golden goose ourselves. Our insistence to deluge social media with dead shit and hero shots has educated the planet to our hobby. I still maintain, my "Don't talk about fight club" tactic was the only reasonable way to keep our "dirty little secret", secret.

I hope all those "in your face" guys who will claim, "I'm not going to hide my passion from anyone" are happy. It makes no difference now, that ship has sailed.

If a Trump Presidency can't or won't change this, what will the next Democrat President (Cory Booker) do.

If you guys want to see what we are up against with the public at large, read the thread linked. Its on a boating/motorsports forum. I'm actually a moderator on this site.

http://www.riverdavesplace.com...ivory.176677/page-14

Start on page one of the thread. I entered into the debate at post 120. I'm known on this site as an international hunter but I saw no reason to argue with those closed minds. One of my pals on there "Gelcoater" convinced me to jump into the fray. (He's the guy at Eliminator Boats that tapes and sprays the boats in the molds)

Now, keep in mind, this place is a bit wild and untamed, thick skin is mandatory. As you will see, the topic at hand comes and goes between the many personal shots and insults.

My screen name is what my old one was here, Nganga, my Avatar is the Specialized bike logo.

As you will read, I try to provide facts, no emotion.

If the general public, in a Motorsports oriented forum feel like this, were doomed. Yes, there were a few thank thanked me for the information.

I completely agree with you Steve. Social media and the instantaneous world wide spread of things via Facebook, Twitter and such entities has completely changed things.

Refusing to see what should be obvious is resulting in our crucifixion. To a great degree the "in your face" people are displaying the same traits as the various "anti" groups. You cannot talk sense to them. The refuse to see what should be as plain as the nose on their face.

We all pay the ultimate price for it.

quote:

Originally posted by Skyline:
I completely agree with you Steve. Social media and the instantaneous world wide spread of things via Facebook, Twitter and such entities has completely changed things.

Refusing to see what should be obvious is resulting in our crucifixion. To a great degree the "in your face" people are displaying the same traits as the various "anti" groups. You cannot talk sense to them. The refuse to see what should be as plain as the nose on their face.

We all pay the ultimate price for it.

I never thought of it like that but you're 100% correct. Being so "in your face" simply shows a closed mind. The same thing the anti's exhibit. Great point.

Steve,

Of course you are correct and always have been.

Hunting videos and pictures weaponized by social media have rung the knell for big game hunting.

Good morning Lane.

It seems that even with the rank and file American Hunter we have lost. Most of the guys on that motorsports site are bird, deer and small game hunters.

people see us as "Greedy American Aristocrats"

If you take the time to read that linked thread, it gives you a look at this issue through the prism of the un-informed American.

My humble take…. As powerful as it is, it’s not just social media in and of itself, which as we know is dominated by demographics which at the very least are not pro-hunting, and to some extent operate in echo chambers of like-minded people.

What happens is that the 24x7 news outlets, who learned years ago that to remain relevant they needed to “follow” social media to see what is trending and hot, pick up on the chatter and amplify it to the masses.

So not only do people who do not participate in social media and/or in the same circles get wind of it on every major news outlet including down to local print media as they latch on, but the mainstream media provides “credible sources” which can be further linked/liked/shared/retweeted/quoted/etc that perpetuates the issue at hand. Just look at how many times a UK paper is cited here in AR.

The stories tend to burn fast, but there is always another one waiting in the wings. The constant bombardment of a message (many times using the same verbiage, like “trophy hunters” or “much beloved” or “endangered” in front of every species) over time changes people’s perceptions, which become reality.

So eventually it is not “just” the active social media users (which are the up and coming generation, but this is another topic), it is everybody including the people who otherwise would not have an opinion one way or the other. Obviously this sequence/cycle applies to everything, not just hunting. Think about how many general opinions you have on topics that you are not knowledgeable on or invested in, and where these “passive opinions” came from.

The media rules the population. Control the media...control the population.

“We” should have been playing a bigger role in media...long ago.

Trump just now tweeted about his decision next week and it sounds like he is going to screw us.

@realDonaldTrump


Big-game trophy decision will be announced next week but will be very hard pressed to change my mind that this horror show in any way helps conservation of Elephants or any other animal.

quote:

Originally posted by A.Dahlgren:
@realDonaldTrump


Big-game trophy decision will be announced next week but will be very hard pressed to change my mind that this horror show in any way helps conservation of Elephants or any other animal.

I had to look it up myself to believe that he actually posted that...he did. He just pushed an anti-hunting snowball down a big hill. What an ass, and I can’t beliebe he opened the door to “other” animals as well.

I am not saying I will vote democrat, but I will not vote for him again. This and his stupid tweets that he confuses as governance are enough.

Go be on th Ball's reality tv show. The words horror show are enough for me.

I will have you cold or hot, but luke warm and I will spew you out of my mouth.

Again, I will refrain from voicing all my frustrations here.

I know it means nothing, but I am done with him as well after this. His son participated in the "horror show" this weekend hunting deer. He spent last Thanksgiving weekend shooting 2 ibex in Turkey just after the election, etc.

Just so shocked he used that phrase...don't think you can back pedal out of that one...he has alienated a big faction of people that voted him in, to cower down to the pressure of those who hate him and always will.

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:

quote:

Originally posted by A.Dahlgren:
@realDonaldTrump


Big-game trophy decision will be announced next week but will be very hard pressed to change my mind that this horror show in any way helps conservation of Elephants or any other animal.

I had to look it up myself to believe that he actually posted that...he did. He just pushed an anti-hunting snowball down a big hill. What an ass, and I can’t beliebe he opened the door to “other” animals as well.

His duplicity, while disappointing, is certainly not surprising.

quote:

Originally posted by A.Dahlgren:
@realDonaldTrump


Big-game trophy decision will be announced next week but will be very hard pressed to change my mind that this horror show in any way helps conservation of Elephants or any other animal.

+1


A accurate observation on shooting female elephants out of herds to sell a cheap hunt.

Pay up and shoot solitary bulls.

Or professionally cull herds.

This will probably get me banned on AR.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:

quote:

Originally posted by A.Dahlgren:
@realDonaldTrump


Big-game trophy decision will be announced next week but will be very hard pressed to change my mind that this horror show in any way helps conservation of Elephants or any other animal.

I had to look it up myself to believe that he actually posted that...he did. He just pushed an anti-hunting snowball down a big hill. What an ass, and I can’t beliebe he opened the door to “other” animals as well.

His duplicity, while disappointing, is certainly not surprising.

What is continually surprising is his juvenile language and his inability to find nuance in anything. Here he is again painting with broad strokes for his lack of being able to paint with a fine one. And given that Zinke (to my understanding) was fine with the original decision, what confidence could he possibly have with Trump? What a mess we are in. And frankly, when the next (D) is in office, this little ditty will look like peanuts. A Republican President may have sown the seeds to end African hunting as a whole for US hunters. Brilliant.

Chaps I am positive one of the next tweets will be 'With great reluctance .....

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
Chaps I am positive one of the next tweets will be 'With great reluctance .....

I’ll cautiously toast your positivity...;-)

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:

quote:

Originally posted by A.Dahlgren:
@realDonaldTrump


Big-game trophy decision will be announced next week but will be very hard pressed to change my mind that this horror show in any way helps conservation of Elephants or any other animal.

I had to look it up myself to believe that he actually posted that...he did. He just pushed an anti-hunting snowball down a big hill. What an ass, and I can’t beliebe he opened the door to “other” animals as well.

Never, EVER, trust a politician!

Sadly, many of us saw this coming from him.

His appearance at the NRA show was the only positive from his presidency.

The rest of his life has been nothing but glorifying himself!

He has demeaned the great position he has been put in.

Gutless, classless, spineless.

What a great disappointment!

Wonder why he would make such a statement when he has two sons that are big game hunters. Unless he was thinking about the poaching that goes on over there and was thinking lifting the ban would cause more of that.

quote:

Originally posted by Northtexas12:
Wonder why he would make such a statement when he has two sons that are big game hunters. Unless he was thinking about the poaching that goes on over there and was thinking lifting the ban would cause more of that.

Actually, poaching is usually less in areas that are hunted.

And hunting has never encouraged poaching.

In fact, those involved in hunting are actively involved in stopping poaching

Anyway, poaching will never stop as long as the politicians in those countries are benefiting from it.

Trump will eventually show his anti-gun side as well.

He is an asshole after all.I bet those contractors who he stiffed were not lying too.A New Yorker in the White House-what else to expect.The elections were rigged no doubt-that is why we was running.He is one of the swamp.What a two face.

Trump calls elephant hunting a 'horror show,' suggests he'll enforce a ban on trophy imports


http://www.baltimoresun.com/ne...-20171119-story.html

He saw which way the wind was blowing and changed course. Typical of politicians.

Dave

http://sunshinestatenews.com/s...-elephant-trophy-ban



Vern Buchanan Cheers Trump for Reversing FWS Lifting Elephant Trophy Ban

By KEVIN DERBY

November 20, 2017 - 9:30am



With President Donald Trump freezing the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service’s (FWS) proposal to end the ban on African elephant trophies, a Florida Republican who opposed the change cheered the decision.

U.S. Rep. Vern Buchanan, R-Fla., one of the co-chairs of the Congressional Animal Protection Caucus, weighed in on Friday to oppose the FWS reversing the policy which had been in place since 2014.

But, with the FWS decision drawing heavy fire, Trump reversed his administration’s decision as he took to Twitter on Saturday.

“Put big game trophy decision on hold until such time as I review all conservation facts. Under study for years,” Trump posted. “Will update soon with Secretary Zinke."

Trump followed that up with another Twitter posting on Sunday.

“Big-game trophy decision will be announced next week but will be very hard pressed to change my mind that this horror show in any way helps conservation of elephants or any other animal,” Trump insisted.

Noting that elephants have been covered under the Endangered Species Act for almost four decades, Buchanan weighed in on Trump’s decision to put the decision on hold on Saturday.

“The sport hunting of endangered African elephants is shameful,” Buchanan said. “The president made the right decision to block the importation of elephant trophies but his administration needs to follow up with a clear policy that permanently bans sport hunting of the animal.

"The United States should make clear that it does not support or encourage the slaughter of animals that are facing extinction," Buchanan added. "We need a permanent ban on sport hunting of African elephants."

In recent years, Buchanan, who sits on both the U.S. House Budget and Ways and Means Committees, has been active on animal welfare issues. Last year, he teamed up with U.S. Rep. Michelle Lujan Grisham, D-NM, to urge the Interior Department to end plans to exterminate or sell more than 45,000 wild horses. Buchanan has also been leading the charge on Capitol Hill to stop slaughtering horses for human consumption.

The Bradenton congressman has also been active in trying to keep manatees covered under the Endangered Species Act. Earlier this year, Buchanan protested the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service’s decision to downgrade manatees from “endangered” to “threatened.” Buchanan also teamed up with U.S. Rep. Alcee Hastings, D-Fla., bringing out the “Dog and Cat Meat Trade Prohibition Act," a proposal banning the slaughter of cats and dogs for human consumption. Buchanan was named legislator of the year by the Humane Society of the United States in 2016.

I will decide my future NRA membership on how they come out against this reversal of the reversal. My guess is that 2nd amendment issues, NOT HUNTING, is always,and will always their bread and butter issue. Fair enough. However, the NRA, and Sportsmen helped get Trump elected, and he seems poised to spit in our face.
If the NRA has indeed set it's sights on representing hunters as well as gun owners as their latest media campaigns state, now will be the Put Up or Shut Up moment.
I am hoping the NRA will put very public pressure,the kind that they alone can apply, on this President.

A president who finds hunting and hunters horrifying.

We need to let the president as well as our congressmen and senators know that not only are we against him keeping the ban in place but we also do not appreciate the insulting remarks he made towards sport hunting in Africa.

https://www.politico.com/blogs...lawsuit-trump-250954



Groups file suit over elephant trophy decision

By JOSH GERSTEIN 11/20/2017 03:14 PM EST

Two environmental groups are suing to reverse a decision — since suspended by President Donald Trump — to end a ban on importing elephant trophies from Zimbabwe.

The Center for Biological Diversity and the Natural Resources Defense Council filed suit Monday in federal court in Washington, asking a judge to declare unlawful the Interior Department's decision announced law week to allow Americans to bring such trophies into the U.S.

The suit comes despite several tweets from Trump indicating he was reviewing the policy, after an outcry over the decision finalized last week by the Fish and Wildlife Service, which concluded that allowing such imports would promote conservation efforts through revenue produced by organized hunting.

"This agency action — predicated on an erroneous finding that the government of Zimbabwe has the capacity to sustainably manage elephant hunting — comes in the midst of a Zimbabwean coup d’état," the suit notes.

On Friday, Trump appeared to back away from the decision, saying it was "on hold."

"Put big game trophy decision on hold until such time as I review all conservation facts. Under study for years. Will update soon with Secretary Zinke. Thank you!" Trump wrote. He later retweeted kudos for his move from broadcasters Greta Van Susteren and Piers Morgan.


By Sunday, Trump was sounding even more negative about the federal agency's announced plan, and he appeared to all but promise it would not take effect.

"Big-game trophy decision will be announced next week but will be very hard pressed to change my mind that this horror show in any way helps conservation of Elephants or any other animal," the president wrote.

Tanya Sanerib, a lawyer for the Center for Biological Diversity, said the suit was a wise step because Trump's statements were not definitive.

“Trump’s abrupt backpedaling after public outcry, while appreciated, shows how arbitrary this deplorable decision was. These incredibly imperiled creatures need a lot more than vague promises," she said.

"President Trump’s tweets are ambiguous and beg the question of what exactly he plans to do," the NRDC's Elly Pepper wrote on the group's website.

A Justice Department spokeswoman had no immediate comment on the suit.

In addition to the decision on elephants, the newly filed suit also seeks to reverse a less-publicized move the Fish and Wildlife Service made in October to allow imports of lion trophies from Zimbabwe.

quote:

Originally posted by Hutty:
Trump calls elephant hunting a 'horror show,' suggests he'll enforce a ban on trophy imports


http://www.baltimoresun.com/ne...-20171119-story.html

Just for shits and giggles, do this: read trumps tweet again, and this time imagine the “horror show” is the ban, not the hunting. For a guy who supposedly detests Obama-era everything, maybe it’s just his incoherence that has caused the confusion. No, I’m not giving the guy an inch, but given cofeve, who the hell knows what he is really saying.

. . . so why stop the USFWS action to begin with and make the first tweet . . . why retweet antihunting tweets by Piers Morgan and Greta Van Susteren . . . I fear you are grasping at straws. His action is completely unsurprising. He has stated his objection to hunting before. He has also made statements supportive of additional gun control measures. Will be interesting to see when that shoe drops.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
. . . so why stop the USFWS action to begin with and make the first tweet . . . why retweet antihunting tweets by Piers Morgan and Greta Van Susteren . . . I fear you are grasping at straws. His action is completely unsurprising. He has stated his objection to hunting before. He has also made statements supportive of additional gun control measures. Will be interesting to see when that shoe drops.

You might be misinterpreting the tone of the post. Not grasping at straws at all, I have no dog in this fight in reality. I can't afford to hunt elephant, and if I could, wouldn't do it anyway, probably. I do care a great deal about the right thing being done in complex and controversial situations, and elephant conservation is one of them. It bugs the living shit out of me that "outrage" on social media drives US policy, and that playing the social media/pop culture game is how we operate in this country.

And I'm not inferring in any way that his previous statements on hunting or guns bear no weight, what I'm continually astounded by is his ability to, in the midst of trying to provide further clarification, muddy the waters to the point that no one knows what the hell he is saying.

Remember, I just said for shits and giggles. No one knows what Trump is going to do, including himself. I do think that if he does follow through with the ban, he might just wave his undersized hand and expand the ban to other species, remember, he said, ... "or any other animal." And I don't think he even knows what the specifics of the ban were. We are in for a wild ride.

I was just listening to a program on npr about the topic, one speaker was the lawyer for SCI,,he admitted HE is not a hunter,, he likes to fish,,when ask " why does someone hunt elephants ? " he said " I think its a way to get out and connect with nature" , and lastly he was ask " if you shot an elephant over their would you bring anything back ? " his response,, no,,i think id leave it all their."

that's the lawyer for SCI ,, he doesn't hunt .

quote:

Two environmental groups are suing to reverse a decision — since suspended by President Donald Trump

The courts were never meant to legislate.

Dave

IIRC, Slate is a liberal magazine that hates Trump. So this article there is astounding and actually makes sense
http://www.slate.com/articles/...rc=sh_all_tab_fb_top