quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
Same thing I have tried to do Karl, yet I got slandered by guys who do not even know me, who are supporting your obvious mission against the Save DSC bunch, and now it seems DSC at large. You and I quit being on the same page on, well, anything several years ago. My only failure was trying to convince your loyalists on AR that DSC is not headed down a path that they are being accused of due to this silly OHAA nonsense. AR was not designed to air your and my distaste for each other any further here. I believe we should both stop here, okay by you?

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
Same thing I have tried to do Karl, yet I got slandered by guys who do not even know me, who are supporting your obvious mission against the Save DSC bunch, and now it seems DSC at large. You and I quit being on the same page on, well, anything several years ago. My only failure was trying to convince your loyalists on AR that DSC is not headed down a path that they are being accused of due to this silly OHAA nonsense. AR was not designed to air your and my distaste for each other any further here. I believe we should both stop here, okay by you?

Dave:

I started this thread without any input or encouragement from Karl. I started it due to YOUR bashing of SCI. Frankly, if you and Russell had kept quiet, it likely would never have gone as far as it has.

Let me clear . I don’t give a damn if it is DSC , SCI, NRA, DU, NWTF, NDA or any other organization I belong to . I have a problem when the actions of members cause the organization to spend massive amounts on legal fees . No matter who it is . I have a problem when the same people are given goofy ass awards by the same organization. No matter who it is.

I have known about these matters for a long time . I would have never said a word publicly about them. However, YOUR slamming SCI provoked me to do so.

I want to say it again. Last week at the SCI EC meeting , the SCI president was very complimentary about the DSC snow. No one was bashing DSC.

I can see why you are such a cheerleader for DSC. I know how much they pay your company . I get it .

In short, if you want to blame anyone, go look in the mirror . If you had not bashed SCI none of this would have been posted by me.

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
Sorry but I don’t consider wasting over a half million in legal fees to fight a frivolous lawsuit, then rewarding the perpetrators with ANY kind of award as a bump in the road.

quote:

Originally posted by bcap:
The shame of the whole thing is how a few came at guys asking question on what happen and why. The down fall to all good things is when a few think they can do what ever they want and not have to answer to anyone.

The question asked were not that bad and then to have some dsc people attack others on here is a joke at best. Just knowing that an ass hat like dave gets paid from dsc to film anything will make me never join again. Dont like sci either so I am not picking sides or have a grudge against dsc but they lost there way and reading the replies back to a few of us by dsc staff or what ever they are just shows there no different then sci. Power hungey people who forgot why dsc was formed.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bcap:
The shame of the whole thing is how a few came at guys asking question on what happen and why. The down fall to all good things is when a few think they can do what ever they want and not have to answer to anyone.

The question asked were not that bad and then to have some dsc people attack others on here is a joke at best. Just knowing that an ass hat like dave gets paid from dsc to film anything will make me never join again. Dont like sci either so I am not picking sides or have a grudge against dsc but they lost there way and reading the replies back to a few of us by dsc staff or what ever they are just shows there no different then sci. Power hungey people who forgot why dsc was formed.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:

Not for profits are required to provide certain documents to those requesting it . Specifically, certain forms 990. We can get answers to some questions from those forms . Not all but some .

quote:

Originally posted by Steve


Dave, you should have simply sat on your hands.

quote:

Originally posted by Duckear:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:

Not for profits are required to provide certain documents to those requesting it . Specifically, certain forms 990. We can get answers to some questions from those forms . Not all but some .

Guidestar.org

You can get a basic free membership to see the 990s.

Very interesting reading.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I sure hate to see how this has played out here, particularly involving a number of people that I know personally and have tremendous respect for regardless of their position here. Just sorry to see this go down the way it did.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
My last 2¢.

When the “save DSC” attack occurred…Dave (whom I consider a friend as I do Larry and Karl) sent out the call to arms for us loyalists to please make sure we voted and informed us of what was going on.

I personally rounded up a half-dozen life member votes who likely would not have voted.

After the initial insult we were told the save DSC bunch was history which apparently it is but also isn’t — totally. I have been trying for sometime now to find exactly what the outcome was and why there are some attackers left.

I still would like to know…in detailed form…even if in the form of a letter of explanation sent to voting members.

I am proDSC and want it to flourish. The best way I know to help ensure that it does flourish is to stay abreast of affairs so another “save DSC” uprising does not occur.

quote:

Originally posted by Tim Herald:
Guys I hate politics in general and especially in organizations aimed at doing good. I don't know all the ins and outs of all of this, and I am not here to debate who did what, or who is right or wrong. I do feel like I need to say something about Dave Fulson though. I have known Dave a long time and have grown to consider him a good friend. I have never in business, or otherwise, known Dave to be anything but straight up and honest. I know Dave does work throughs his company for DSC, and he and Tim have held various board positions with DSC, but when I read this stuff, it seems he has tried to explain some things (and obviously not in the detail that satisfies everyone), but I don't think Dave is the dedicated and appointed mouthpiece for all things DSC. I am sure there is a an official way for questions that involve hundreds of thousands of dollars can be answered from the organization. Everyone acts like Dave is DSC and he is their lone official spokesman. I know he has put his heart and soul into the organization for many years, and I know he only wants the best for DSC and conservation. He has said that the OHAA awards and sashes, etc. are things he is not in favor of. Again, Dave doesn't make all the rules for DSC. Maybe someone should make an official inquiry to the board of DSC in writing asking about the things in question, and not all come down to just Dave. Yes, I am being a bit defensive of a friend, but mainly it is because I know Dave is a man of integrity and wouldn't try to "hide" anything. He is forthright and isn't known to mince words, but has always been 100% truthful with me. He may or may not be at liberty to discuss certain things in a public forum on behalf of DSC. Certainly we could understand that. I don't know the answer to that question. I just hate seeing things like this become aimed at folks in a personal way, like whoever bcap is? Dave uses his own real name here even when things get tough. I would really like to be around if bcap would every have the nerve to call Dave an ass hat to his face. I think everyone when it comes to this sort of thing is quick to throw out allegations and ask questions that sometimes can't be answered by everyone, especially when it is for an organization. I think an official inquiry should be made to the organization rather than expecting one person to answer for the whole organization, even when he tried. Then when there is an official answer, someone could post here. Just my 2 cents, and now y'all can pile on me too.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:

quote:

Originally posted by Duckear:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:

Not for profits are required to provide certain documents to those requesting it . Specifically, certain forms 990. We can get answers to some questions from those forms . Not all but some .

Guidestar.org

You can get a basic free membership to see the 990s.

Very interesting reading.

Last I checked , the IRS had a severe backlog of processing forms 990 for ALL entities . The most recent was not available for anyone.

quote:

Originally posted by Tim Herald:
Guys I hate politics in general and especially in organizations aimed at doing good. I don't know all the ins and outs of all of this, and I am not here to debate who did what, or who is right or wrong. I do feel like I need to say something about Dave Fulson though. I have known Dave a long time and have grown to consider him a good friend. I have never in business, or otherwise, known Dave to be anything but straight up and honest. I know Dave does work throughs his company for DSC, and he and Tim have held various board positions with DSC, but when I read this stuff, it seems he has tried to explain some things (and obviously not in the detail that satisfies everyone), but I don't think Dave is the dedicated and appointed mouthpiece for all things DSC. I am sure there is a an official way for questions that involve hundreds of thousands of dollars can be answered from the organization. Everyone acts like Dave is DSC and he is their lone official spokesman. I know he has put his heart and soul into the organization for many years, and I know he only wants the best for DSC and conservation. He has said that the OHAA awards and sashes, etc. are things he is not in favor of. Again, Dave doesn't make all the rules for DSC. Maybe someone should make an official inquiry to the board of DSC in writing asking about the things in question, and not all come down to just Dave. Yes, I am being a bit defensive of a friend, but mainly it is because I know Dave is a man of integrity and wouldn't try to "hide" anything. He is forthright and isn't known to mince words, but has always been 100% truthful with me. He may or may not be at liberty to discuss certain things in a public forum on behalf of DSC. Certainly we could understand that. I don't know the answer to that question. I just hate seeing things like this become aimed at folks in a personal way, like whoever bcap is? Dave uses his own real name here even when things get tough. I would really like to be around if bcap would every have the nerve to call Dave an ass hat to his face. I think everyone when it comes to this sort of thing is quick to throw out allegations and ask questions that sometimes can't be answered by everyone, especially when it is for an organization. I think an official inquiry should be made to the organization rather than expecting one person to answer for the whole organization, even when he tried. Then when there is an official answer, someone could post here. Just my 2 cents, and now y'all can pile on me too.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Tim Herald:
Guys I hate politics in general and especially in organizations aimed at doing good. I don't know all the ins and outs of all of this, and I am not here to debate who did what, or who is right or wrong. I do feel like I need to say something about Dave Fulson though. I have known Dave a long time and have grown to consider him a good friend. I have never in business, or otherwise, known Dave to be anything but straight up and honest. I know Dave does work throughs his company for DSC, and he and Tim have held various board positions with DSC, but when I read this stuff, it seems he has tried to explain some things (and obviously not in the detail that satisfies everyone), but I don't think Dave is the dedicated and appointed mouthpiece for all things DSC. I am sure there is a an official way for questions that involve hundreds of thousands of dollars can be answered from the organization. Everyone acts like Dave is DSC and he is their lone official spokesman. I know he has put his heart and soul into the organization for many years, and I know he only wants the best for DSC and conservation. He has said that the OHAA awards and sashes, etc. are things he is not in favor of. Again, Dave doesn't make all the rules for DSC. Maybe someone should make an official inquiry to the board of DSC in writing asking about the things in question, and not all come down to just Dave. Yes, I am being a bit defensive of a friend, but mainly it is because I know Dave is a man of integrity and wouldn't try to "hide" anything. He is forthright and isn't known to mince words, but has always been 100% truthful with me. He may or may not be at liberty to discuss certain things in a public forum on behalf of DSC. Certainly we could understand that. I don't know the answer to that question. I just hate seeing things like this become aimed at folks in a personal way, like whoever bcap is? Dave uses his own real name here even when things get tough. I would really like to be around if bcap would every have the nerve to call Dave an ass hat to his face. I think everyone when it comes to this sort of thing is quick to throw out allegations and ask questions that sometimes can't be answered by everyone, especially when it is for an organization. I think an official inquiry should be made to the organization rather than expecting one person to answer for the whole organization, even when he tried. Then when there is an official answer, someone could post here. Just my 2 cents, and now y'all can pile on me too.

I'm going to second everything Tim just said here. I've known Dave for years and hunted with him, not as a client, but as a hunting buddy. My family has gone to dinner with his on occasion and I consider him a great friend.

I don't know anything about the politics of DSC or the "Save DSC" fiasco, but I do know Dave, and as Tim said, he is a straight up guy and not prone to giving or taking BS. Knowing this about him, I suspect he is following legal advice on how to answer questions regarding the "Save DSC" battle. You'll notice that even Karl's answers are guarded and don't spill all the info either! I suspect he is also following some sort of legal advice on how much to share on a public forum.

Like Tim, I would suggest questions be sought through official channels if possible. I will say Dave's SCI comments were better left unsaid but I also know some of the BS Dave's been through with SCI, or at least the local SCI chapter where I previously served as a board member. Dave and his business partner started that chapter but they went their separate ways years ago. Probably for the same reasons many of us gravitated toward DSC.

One thing I will add, as again, I'm just a DSC member and don't know of the inner workings of the organization, but characterizing Dave as nothing but a paid spokesman for DSC is about as far from the truth as I can imagine. He may very well receive compensation these days for DSC public relations through his company, but I know for a fact he has dedicated thousands of hours to the betterment of the DSC organization, as well as representing us hunters in a positive light through his TV Shows.

I also hate to see this discussion turn the way it has as I consider Larry and Dave to be good friends of mine. I've met Karl before at a DSC event held at Dave's house and while I don't know him other than our AR conversations, I would consider him a friend as well. I too would like to know more about the "Save DSC" battle and what transpired and I don't begrudge anyone having concerns or questions about the associated issues and events that transpired. I think the questions are legitimate but again, I suspect there are reasons full disclosure on a public forum are not forthcoming by any of the parties involved. I agree with Tim in his post above that maybe there are official channels better suited for getting the facts out.

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
I liked dsc much much more than sci. I always tried to attend the dsc show over the last decade.

After hearing the stuff in this thread.

They both are basically the same for me - a marketing organization for hunting shows.

When ever there is money sitting in a non owned entity - no owner, shareholder, no accountability - it attracts a type of person to that unaccounted/unowned money.

Look what Wayne did to the NRA.

Mike

quote:

Saeed, I have been repeatedly mis-quoted by you and others on this thread, so I am demanding that you bring up my quote where I told anybody "To mind their own bloody business, or It's nobody business" Put that quote right here in Big Type.You will be unable to do so sir because I never made, or would make such a statement! What I said to one poster who by his own admission said he did not know the facts of the Save DSC fight was that, and I QUOTE "I rarely say something like this, but in this case, since it is a fact, I know more than you do" concerning that situation.

quote:

Originally posted by DCS Member:


Todd,

I always appreciate your reasoned opinions. If Dave had been acting under legal counsel, he wouldn’t have said “nothing to see here, walk away.” He also wouldn’t have said what he did about Karl.

I do agree that an official response as to the outcome or even current status should be provided to the membership, as it seems out dues and contributions funded defending this fiasco. The fact that it has been going on over two years and no further updates seems ridiculous, but I understand the need for certain confidentiality.

However, some level of transparency is needed for the membership. Not all of us are big wigs, but deserve to know. This thread has shown some members may chose not to renew because the lack of clarity.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
"Save DSC" is as dead as the Dallas Cowboys. There is no struggle, it was handled, and is no longer even a conversation, except here on AR. Let it go...

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by DCS Member:


Todd,

I always appreciate your reasoned opinions. If Dave had been acting under legal counsel, he wouldn’t have said “nothing to see here, walk away.” He also wouldn’t have said what he did about Karl.

I do agree that an official response as to the outcome or even current status should be provided to the membership, as it seems out dues and contributions funded defending this fiasco. The fact that it has been going on over two years and no further updates seems ridiculous, but I understand the need for certain confidentiality.

However, some level of transparency is needed for the membership. Not all of us are big wigs, but deserve to know. This thread has shown some members may chose not to renew because the lack of clarity.

Marcus, likewise I respect your opinions as well. I'm having trouble finding the quote you attributed to Dave however.

I took his comments differently and of course, we all have a tendency to interpret things from our own perspectives so maybe I missed it, but the way I interpreted Dave's comments were:

1) He called out the save DSC rat bastards to their faces at the general meeting

2) He advocated the organization kick all of them out

3) Legal proceedings occurred which did not result in all of them being removed

4) Those legal proceedings are over at this point

5) He is against the OHAA awards like most of the rest of us

On his follow on comments where he said "I know more", I interpreted his statements to be that he was in attendance and active in the proceedings against the save DSC group and they did what they could to get rid of them but fell short for whatever reason, while those of us who did not attend or participate in the proceedings are speculating with incomplete knowledge. I further interpreted Dave's comments to be that DSC is moving on with the organization's mission now that the save DSC legal proceedings concluded. It appears to me that Dave and Karl disagree on whether the save DSC rat bastards are finished or not and as a result, they have a bit of a dispute going on. Those of us who know Dave personally have stated he's a no BS kind of guy and as such, he can come off a bit gruff at times. I can see where his comments are interpreted that way but again, knowing him personally is why I interpreted his comments in the manner I described above.

Of course this "speculating with incomplete knowledge" is the reason transparency and full disclosure as to how the legal proceedings unfolded is required.

In my opinion, it appears some commenters here are putting the sole onus on Dave to fill in the blanks on the save DSC debacle when that is not his responsibility. I don't see any other board members, or the current president, posting here with full details either. Again, I suspect there is legal advice against doing so, but yes, we do need to know.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Let me try to get this matter in focus. It has gotten out of focus. This thread was not started as a bash Dave Fulson thread .

I am a life member of both SCI and DSC . I continue to support both . I believe both need to work together . In fact, when Laird Hamberlin became SCI CEO, I personally introduced Laird to Karl Evans as I believe both organizations need to work together . As an fyi , Laird has been a personal friend for many years before he took this position. I have direct access .

As a life member , I have questions. Legitimate questions about what has transpired on a number of issues . The Save DSC matter is at the top of the list.

The way I see it, we are not getting answers . If fact, to me, the comments we are getting from Dave & Russell scream cover up. These are simple questions with simple answers .

It seems to me that it would benefit DSC to tell the true story.

This is not a bash Dave thread. Personally, I think had he stayed out of this , this matter would not have gone as far as it has.

My question is how do we get a real, truthful answer to the questions that we have?

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Todd and group,

First off let me say I know Larry, Dave, and Karl.

Larry and I are board members of another small conservation group. We visit regularly via phone and catch up at meetings. He is involved with multiple conservation groups as a board member and in other advisory capacities. Everything you said about Dave above can be echoed loudly for Larry. His reputation and integrity are beyond reproach. His actions seen here of helping those in need speak volumes. I personally have never known a more generous man than Larry. He is just salt of the earth.

Dave I have known for over a decade. I count Dave as a friend as well. All that you and Tim say about him is spot on. I have been to Dave's house for small face-to-face meetings over conservation matters that he went to the trouble to arrange — all for the good of conservation. He freely offered his house as a venue and was a gracious host.

Karl has become a friend as well. Long before the “Save DSC” debacle occurred, Karl reached out to me as we were both working on things to end the ivory import halt initiated by USFWS. Karl reached out to me on that of his own accord. Since he has generously shared information with me and notified when something of importance occurred in which he new might help me. All of this he did unsolicited just to help me. Thus, he has become a trusted friend.

Here in lies the rub. There is more to the story on the “save DSC” story than has been told — fact. I have tried to find out. Others have as well. Many voting members would just like to know the truth as to what went down and why. And, why the leadership structure and organization changed in the aftermath. It seems to me that we 1) deserve to know and 2) have the right to know.

I want DSC to flourish. I think the best way to ensure it flourishes is to keep it transparent and its members informed. I intended to make the AGM spoken about above and missed it due to an emergency that came up in my day job. I have felt somewhat in the dark since.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
Saeed,I see you lack the grace to apologize for your utter and deliberate mis-quote of my statement. Says a lot about character. As to your question of "what did 'let it go' mean?" here is your answer. It was said out of utter personal frustration after I had tried, several times in lengthy posts to explain that decisions out of my control were made in the aftermath of Save DSC, and that, in my opinion, concluded the matter, and certainly my ability to change it's outcome. I will ask Larry, as he is a lawyer,"when you are working on an important case, whether defending or prosecuting and a bunch of reporters stick microphones in your face, call you on the phone, or plead for sensitive info on chat rooms, do you feel the need to tell them everything about the case you know? After all, they are taxpayers, don't they have a right to full discovery like the opposing legal team? Of course not. Saeed still, despite my very best effort to explain to him that I do not run DSC, is trying to blame DSC for some ridiculous shift in direction from my statement. No one raised his opinion or voice against the unwarranted attack on DSC by the Save DSC mob harder than me. But the decision was not mine in the end, and I agreed with leadership that the money it took to fight them was both necessary and a waste of resources. Is there anyone on here foolish enough to think DSC leadership felt otherwise? But like any legal action from divorce, a business break-up, or suit of ANY KIND there comes a time to move on to getting on with your life\business or in DSC's case-Mission. They did, and are doing so to an unprecedented level. Several times during this thread, I literally asked myself, and had others privately raise the same question " Can some of these guys not read?" That is why I challenged everyone to go back, ad read EVERY POST DAVE FULSON made to find the quote I challenged Saeed to retract " It's None Of Your Business." Well, neither Saeed or anyone here has yet to provide it, because I never wrote it, although you sure dogpiled me for saying it because you believed what"someone else said." Thats on you, not me. Some of you had the grace and manners to admit it on this thread, others wrote me personally to do so. And I appreciate these gentlemen'apologies a great deal. One guy told me, and asked to remain unnamed for reasons everyone should understand," Dave you will not be able to get a fair shake on AR, too many of the top guys, clearly including the owner and primary moderator are dug in against you, and seemingly DSC because of loyalty to a individual you are at odd's with. You explained your position to a point any sane or fair person could have, and should have accepted, but this bunch will not have the good manners to read what you posted in the for what it was. The Truth!" Thats pretty much where we are, it just took someone else I respect putting it to me in such stark words. I'm done guys, I will not be sharing, posting, reading or participating in AR from this point on. I have lost respect for what I thought this forum represented, exchanges of ideas, even if opposing viewpoints were present. I have enjoyed the years, the friendships, and even most of the disagreements. The keyboard warriors that I do not think, when push might definitely come to shove, would call out my credibility to my face can now come out with all the badassery they can not muster...I expect nothing less from what I have seen at this point. DF