I just read about a hunt for sale by an AR member who is selling as he was diagnosed with terminal cancer. He is trying to sell his hunt with Bushwhack Safaris to regain his "non-refundable deposit". Check it out here: http://forums.accuratereloadin...2100588/m/2481027181

What do you guys think, is there ever a time when a safari company should refund a deposit?

A company should refund a deposit in accordance with their written policy.

Likewise, hunters should book with companies that have a written refund policy they deem acceptable.

When a person pays a deposit for a hunt they are, in effect, agreeing to purchase the hunt so the outfitter can use the money to begin purchasing supplies And hiring employees. And since the spot is spoken for, and partially paid for, other clients who also want the hunt are turned away.
From a pure business sense there is no reason an outfitter should have to refund a deposit
If the cancellation was no fault of theirs.

On the other hand most outfitters are under standing but you can't expect them to swallow the expenses. Which is why that if the hunter, or they, can find a replacement they usually do offer some sort of refund

Myself as a small business man, and in a service business, would without question, refund this man's money.. deposits are deposits...and right is right...Butch

quote:

Originally posted by mbogobutch:
Myself as a small business man, and in a service business, would without question, refund this man's money.. deposits are deposits...and right is right...Butch

If outfitters started offering full refunds for terminal illness how would the outfitter confirm that the hunter was indeed truly ill?

It would not be the first time someone faked an illness for profit. There was a woman in the news who faked cancer, and a famous PH who is believed to have faked his death.

I am not saying this to disparage anyone here on AR. I'm just pointing out that it is a slippery slope.

quote:

Originally posted by mbogobutch:
Myself as a small business man, and in a service business, would without question, refund this man's money.. deposits are deposits...and right is right...Butch

Unfortunately acting with integrity and doing the right thing are far too often overlooked or explained away.

And when is the hunter's responsibility to purchase travel insurance?

"Non-refundable" is pretty simple to understand. It means it is NOT refundable.

It is very sad to hear the client becoming ill, but it does not mean the outfitter has to cough his deposit back.

If a replacement hunter is found, then it is hoped the outfitter will return his deposit.

People here keep repeating how important an agreement is, so when you have one, stick to it.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
"Non-refundable" is pretty simple to understand. It means it is NOT refundable.

It is very sad to hear the client becoming ill, but it does not mean the outfitter has to cough his deposit back.

If a replacement hunter is found, then it is hoped the outfitter will return his deposit.

People here keep repeating how important an agreement is, so when you have one, stick to it.

That is exactly what I was referring to, there is what is in an agreement and there is doing the right thing. An agreement does not supplant and cannot replace acting with integrity.

If I were an outfitter, especially for a relatively inexpensive plains game hunt, I think i would feel like a true scoundrel if I told a potentially dying client, "Well, if you can sell the spot, I will send you the money back". Said nagging conscience is probably nature's way of reminding us that, "It's just business" represents nothing more than the ideology of a mob boss.

If I could fill the spot with another hunter I would refund the deposit!

As I recall, we've had this same situation 2 or maybe 3 times over the years and we've always had a clearly stated cancellation policy on all of our safari contracts.

In all of the cases, we chose to ignore the cancellation policy, gave a full and immediate refund and wished the affected hunter all the luck in the world.

I guess there probably might be the occasional person out there who might be prepared to lie in such a way to get his money back but I reckon there's very few that lack that degree of morality and I certainly wouldn't want to spend time with them anyway.

To me, it's about common humanity and decency rather than what's written on a signed piece of paper.

However, I make no comment on what others should or shouldn't do.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
"Non-refundable" is pretty simple to understand. It means it is NOT refundable.

It is very sad to hear the client becoming ill, but it does not mean the outfitter has to cough his deposit back.

If a replacement hunter is found, then it is hoped the outfitter will return his deposit.

People here keep repeating how important an agreement is, so when you have one, stick to it.

Saeed,


I see my name has been used and i don't want to make a big conversation out of this and my compony being smeert with bad publicity. This hunt is legit and an agreement was pulled up. In the agreement it states that NO DEPOSIT IS REFUNDED if the client cancels his safari - what ever the case may be...

This agreement was send a week before signing it in the comfort of the clients environment - nobody forced him to sign it. Two options was given to the client to compensate him: 1. Sustitute with another hunter or 2. Forward the safari to the 2013 hunting season.

What some of your don't understand is that 5 days before commecing with his safari, he cancelled, expenses has been made. A lot of work has gone into this clients safari and so with all of my clients i want to give them an experience that they will remember of Africa...This is not the first time i have been in this situation (just see some of the comments above) my heart bleeds for him, but Bushwack Safari is an honest and respected running business.

I just want to state that my prayers is with this client, but my decision will stay status quo.

Patrick,

You have done nothing wrong, and you have given the client other obtions to consider.

quote:

Originally posted by Bushwack:
[What some of your don't understand is that 5 days before commecing with his safari, he cancelled, expenses has been made. A lot of work has gone into this clients safari and so with all of my clients i want to give them an experience that they will remember of Africa...This is not the first time i have been in this situation (just see some of the comments above) my heart bleeds for him, but Bushwack Safari is an honest and respected running business.

I just want to state that my prayers is with this client, but my decision will stay status quo.

Sounds fair enough to me and it's good to hear you offered him some options.

I feel sorry for Patrick... a similar thing happened to me a few years back and my name was dragged across the internet until I was beaten and bloody. In the end I was blackmailed into paying off the person involved to make it stop.

This thread should never have been given life.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
"Non-refundable" is pretty simple to understand. It means it is NOT refundable.

It is very sad to hear the client becoming ill, but it does not mean the outfitter has to cough his deposit back.

If a replacement hunter is found, then it is hoped the outfitter will return his deposit.

People here keep repeating how important an agreement is, so when you have one, stick to it.

That is exactly what I was referring to, there is what is in an agreement and there is doing the right thing. An agreement does not supplant and cannot replace acting with integrity.

Is the concept of personal responsibility dead?

People have the option of purchasing trip insurance for situations just like this. I suspect it wasn't purchased because it was seemed to have a poor ROI. It was a bad decision and now there are consequences.

When did we start expecting others to subsidize our decisions?

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
"Non-refundable" is pretty simple to understand. It means it is NOT refundable.

It is very sad to hear the client becoming ill, but it does not mean the outfitter has to cough his deposit back.

If a replacement hunter is found, then it is hoped the outfitter will return his deposit.

People here keep repeating how important an agreement is, so when you have one, stick to it.

That is exactly what I was referring to, there is what is in an agreement and there is doing the right thing. An agreement does not supplant and cannot replace acting with integrity.

I agree with Mike here. I have had clients who had deposits up for work who died. The non refundable deposit was returned without question. I have had the same thing with terminal illness. There is a fine line where standing your ground is more like standing on quicksand.

Jeff

Why does an outfitter need a deposit for as 458Win states. So the outfitter can use the money to begin purchasing supplies, hiring employees etc. Like most business they should be properly capitalized also Putting a deposit on a hunt 10 or 11 months prior to the hunt - wow those supplies are going to get old especially food. I understand deposits i e a commitment to the hunt. I would think a hunt cancelled say 60 days out should carry a refund of say at least 90%. Yes the policy should be in the contract and the above would be acceptable to me. Now if I die prior to the hunt well then say 100% refund after all my widow will need it for funeral expenses i e those over an above what SS pays, eh.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:
There is a fine line where standing your ground is more like standing on quicksand.

Bingo! In 99% of circumstances, sure a contract is a contract but situations like this really only make the outfitter look bad. I do NOT think the original poster intended this to happen but, if the outfitter were truly business savvy, he would have immediately and publicly offered a full refund under the circumstances. Sure, it might be tougher to do this on a $75,000 lion hunt but with a hunt like this it should not be a problem for an outfitter of any size. Frankly, even if it hurt a bit now to cough up the deposit, the future business generated would have surely made the short run investment worthwhile. Many people here might say "a deal's a deal" on this thread but when it comes time to book in the future a good many more people will probably remember who the good guys are and who is willing to stick their neck out a bit for what is good and right.

I agree that the contract governs, and that it's generally a fair and just result for a defaulting buyer to forfeit his deposit.

But I also agree with those who have suggested that justice should be tempered by mercy.

I find it apalling that people on this site would critizise someone for following their cancellation pollicy to the T.....

This attitude reminds me of people that critizise others for not donating to a charity or giving people money on the street.

The outfitter is acting 100% in his right, for whatever reason he chooses to. now if someone else has or would act different, that is up to the other party.

If any of you would like the sick person being refunded, why dont you write a check for the amount and compensate him yourself as a sort of "charity" or "mercy" or better yet, buy the hunt and go on it.

quote:

Originally posted by Patricio Gaudiano:
I find it apalling that people on this site would critizise someone for following their cancellation pollicy to the T.....

This attitude reminds me of people that critizise others for not donating to a charity or giving people money on the street.

The outfitter is acting 100% in his right, for whatever reason he chooses to. now if someone else has or would act different, that is up to the other party.

If any of you would like the sick person being refunded, why dont you write a check for the amount and compensate him yourself as a sort of "charity" or "mercy" or better yet, buy the hunt and go on it.

May you always be blessed tihe perfect health and the best of fortunes....

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
"Non-refundable" is pretty simple to understand. It means it is NOT refundable.

It is very sad to hear the client becoming ill, but it does not mean the outfitter has to cough his deposit back.

If a replacement hunter is found, then it is hoped the outfitter will return his deposit.

People here keep repeating how important an agreement is, so when you have one, stick to it.

That is exactly what I was referring to, there is what is in an agreement and there is doing the right thing. An agreement does not supplant and cannot replace acting with integrity.

I agree with Mike here. I have had clients who had deposits up for work who died. The non refundable deposit was returned without question. I have had the same thing with terminal illness. There is a fine line where standing your ground is more like standing on quicksand.

Jeff

It is soooooo easy to be generous with other people's money, time, labor, and business assets, isn't it?

I'm with Steve(Shakari) on this one.

quote:

Originally posted by Bushwack:
What some of your don't understand is that 5 days before commecing with his safari, he cancelled, expenses has been made..

Taking the "high road" and refunding is a great thought but a contract is a contract and with only 5 days until the hunt, the time for a refund is LONG PAST! I hope the hunter recovers but lets not drag a reputable outfitter through the mud over something like this.

quote:

Originally posted by Patricio Gaudiano:
The outfitter is acting 100% in his right, for whatever reason he chooses to.

Reminds me of the quote, might does not make right.

This whole thread is a good advertisement for trip cancellation insurance.

Bushwack,

Sometimes even when you're right you're wrong.

The hunter in question ostensibly paid a 50% deposit of $2400 on a 5-day package hunt that includes trophy fees and some other expenses including government taxes of 14%. According to the information provided on your website (http://www.bushwacksafaris.co.za/hunting-safaris/) the one-on-one daily rate for a plains game hunt is $325 so the total daily rate for a 5 day hunt would be $1625. So by keeping a $2400 deposit, you are taking the entire daily rate as well as part of the trophy fees on animals that won't be killed, not to mention the tax levy that probably won't get paid.

Again according to your own website, Bushwack Safaris is a fixed-base operation 90 minutes from the JNB airport. I find it highly unlikely that your out-of-pocket expenses prior to a hunter's arrival is in excess of your daily rate.

Keeping the entire deposit and telling the sick client to go sell a hunt for you may well be within your rights under your written agreement. Whether it is the right thing to do is another matter all-together.

In "staying with the status quo" as you put it, you've shown us not what kind of businessman you are but what kind of person you are. I doubt even one the people who have defended your actions as a contractual matter will be interested in booking a hunt with you...even this one at a discount.

I second ForrestB conclusion. A fixed base operator would have very little expenses prior to the hunt, that is expenses directly associated with this hunt vs normal daily expenses.

Hey Mike: You and I have both heard clients say: "It's the principle of the matter"? Doesn't the outfitter's response kind of remind you of that ? Wrong attitude all the way around, in my opinion. And yes, I also agree with ForrestB as well.

Reminds me more of a client with no common sense and who is so shortsighted that he/she insists on taking a position where they may win the battle but they end up losing the war. Here the outfitter may be right on what the contract says, but in terms of the impact on his business prospectively, he has screwed the pooch.

Norman Schwarzkopf once said, "The truth of the matter is that you always know the right thing to do. The hard part is doing it." I think for some that is particularly true where, like in this situation, money is involved.

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
I second ForrestB conclusion. A fixed base operator would have very little expenses prior to the hunt, that is expenses directly associated with this hunt vs normal daily expenses.

Maybe if it wasn't five days before the hunt...

To quote .458 the main reason for a deposit in this case is so that: "partially paid for, other clients who also want the hunt are turned away."

The cancellation is a loss of revenue for the business owner - That loss is only partially, not fully made up for in the non-refundable deposit.

If more notice was given maybe the outfitter could have explored more options, The client in question says he knew of his diagnosis 7 weeks ago. Yet the outfitter only got 5 days notice.

And yes the circumstances suck, but the outfitter is trying to put food on the table himself.

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
I second ForrestB conclusion. A fixed base operator would have very little expenses prior to the hunt, that is expenses directly associated with this hunt vs normal daily expenses.

There is a lot of speculating here by folks who obviously know little of running a guiding business. Whether it is in some African country, Canada or Alaska.
There are plenty of fees, licenses, permits, etc. due months, and in some cases almost a year in advance. In addition guides and employees must be lined up and are counting on that income. In addition everything from TP to propane and literally tons of food stuff needs to be ordered ---- all well in advance of the hunt.
There is a reason deposits are sold as non-refundable. The hunter has paid for all these items and if they request a refund the outfitter either has to find another client or take a loss on something beyond their control.

Most of us try to work something out and sometimes we can find another hunter or can carry the deposit forward to another year.
But if the contract means nothing then we might as well not even ask for one.

In early 2010 I had to cancel a hunt for a fall 2011 hunt, that I had paid the deposit on in 2009. I did get back the deposit, as was written in the contract I had signed, less a 20% fee. The outfitter did sell my spot to another hunter in 2010 for that 2011 spot of mine but I never asked for any more back as I felt that the 20% went to his advertising of my canceled spot. Maybe he made money on my cancelation but maybe he also lost a bit on it. I do not know but that is the price.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
There are plenty of fees, licenses, permits, etc. due months, and in some cases almost a year in advance. In addition guides and employees must be lined up and are counting on that income. In addition everything from TP to propane and literally tons of food stuff needs to be ordered ---- all well in advance of the hunt.

We're talking about a game farm in South Africa. They'll stop at the Pick 'n' Pay for supplies on the way out of town. They're going to make money when animals get shot, this week, next week, whenever. Greed is at play here not economics.

I had booked a african hunt, and 10 months before the hunt date, I wanted to change the dates, I had to pay 1000 dollars, or loose my deposit,just to change the date. I dont know if that was right?

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:

There are plenty of fees, licenses, permits, etc. due months, and in some cases almost a year in advance. In addition guides and employees must be lined up and are counting on that income. In addition everything from TP to propane and literally tons of food stuff needs to be ordered ---- all well in advance of the hunt.
There is a reason deposits are sold as non-refundable. The hunter has paid for all these items and if they request a refund the outfitter either has to find another client or take a loss on something beyond their control.

Most of us try to work something out and sometimes we can find another hunter or can carry the deposit forward to another year .

I'm not saying a non-refundable deposit per the contract isn't binding as I do understand that expenses are incurred. Especially if the cancellation occurs 5 days before the hunt. However, where you lost me is: How does carrying the deposit forward to the following year offset the purchase of toilet paper, propane, licenses, permits, and such this year? How does rolling it forward cover the expense of hiring the guides and other personell this year that you say has already occurred and how does it cover the lost revenue of not doing the hunt this year if a replacement isn't found?

Bottom line is that denying the refund due to expenses already incurred seems a weak excuse if all can be squared by rolling the hunt forward a year. What happens next year? Since the deposit was used to pay those non-reversible expenses this year, how do those same expenses get paid next year when the hunter actually shows up? Do you eat those duplicate expenses at that time?

Maybe I'm missing something because I'm not an outfitter and actually don't know all the ins and outs of your business.

Todd: Outfitter accepts some loss but at least they still have a future client and income. It is one less client they have to book (they dont grow on trees) and the profit is in the second 50%. Personally I think it is a generous offer to roll a hunt at 5-days out, something I suspect only a fixed-location operator could do.

Wow, talk about men of honor who Walk the Walk and Talk the Talk. On the Hunts Offered thread Forrest, Jim, Jerry, Dennis and Tendrams are putting their money where their mouths are and offering to make things right for an AR member they've never met. While I have yet to met Tendrams, I am honored to have gotten to know each of the others. You guys are something else.

Tendrams, if you'll be at SCI/Reno, I'd like to buy.