OK - what about this scenario... client contacts the outfitter one week out and says that a close family member has fallen gravely (terminally) ill and wont be able to make the hunt (ever) and under the circumstances could he please have his non-refundable deposit back. Is the outfitter heartless if he says No, sorry..??? Where does the outfitter draw the line... will he be chastised on an internet forum if he says no??

I have had all sorts of cancellation situations. I had a client call me on the day of his (very valuable) hunt to say the the el-cheapo airline that he had booked (against my recommendation) had refused to allow him to board with his firearm, instead of leaving his gun at home he went home with it. He asked if he could postpone his hunt for 2 months. In my generosity, I very reluctantly agreed and then 7 days out from the second hunt I was hassling him to send me his itinerary and he told me it was too much hassle and wasn't going to come at all ... after I had set-up the hunt for him for the 2nd time!!!

Not the first time.... and these are the things that can and do happen when outfitters display generosity - and the reason we must stick to contracts. I made a mistake in a contract once that cost me $6000. The client knew it was a clerical error and refused to pay it but I knew it was my mistake so I had to cop it on the chin... Contracts are there for a reason.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
Todd: Outfitter accepts some loss but at least they still have a future client and income. It is one less client they have to book (they dont grow on trees) and the profit is in the second 50%. Personally I think it is a generous offer to roll a hunt at 5-days out, something I suspect only a fixed-location operator could do.

Thanks Matt. Really wasn't trying to stir the pot. It just didn't make much sense to me that rolling the hunt a year would really do anything to offset this year's commitments that were already paid.

I also agree 100% that rolling a hunt 5 days out from it's start would be more than generous. It would seem that at that point, everything really has been put in place without any real chance to recover.

quote:

Originally posted by ForrestB:
Bushwack,

Sometimes even when you're right you're wrong.

The hunter in question ostensibly paid a 50% deposit of $2400 on a 5-day package hunt that includes trophy fees and some other expenses including government taxes of 14%. According to the information provided on your website (http://www.bushwacksafaris.co.za/hunting-safaris/) the one-on-one daily rate for a plains game hunt is $325 so the total daily rate for a 5 day hunt would be $1625. So by keeping a $2400 deposit, you are taking the entire daily rate as well as part of the trophy fees on animals that won't be killed, not to mention the tax levy that probably won't get paid.

Again according to your own website, Bushwack Safaris is a fixed-base operation 90 minutes from the JNB airport. I find it highly unlikely that your out-of-pocket expenses prior to a hunter's arrival is in excess of your daily rate.

Keeping the entire deposit and telling the sick client to go sell a hunt for you may well be within your rights under your written agreement. Whether it is the right thing to do is another matter all-together.

In "staying with the status quo" as you put it, you've shown us not what kind of businessman you are but what kind of person you are. I doubt even one the people who have defended your actions as a contractual matter will be interested in booking a hunt with you...even this one at a discount.

If you are going to quote his website, at least do it in context and in full.

quote:

Deposit: 50% (not refundable) on daily rate, to confirm booking, remainder paid on arrival. Trophy fees payable at completion of Safari. Package deals 50% on total value of safari.

The hunter in question states he had put a deposit down on a package deal.

The outfitter clearly spelled out his policy and has been consistent.

Your personal over the top generosity is very commendable, but the outfitter in this case has done nothing wrong nor immoral.

quote:

Originally posted by SBT:
Wow, talk about men of honor who Walk the Walk and Talk the Talk. On the Hunts Offered thread Forrest, Jim, Jerry, Dennis and Tendrams are putting their money where their mouths are and offering to make things right for an AR member they've never met. While I have yet to met Tendrams, I am honored to have gotten to know each of the others. You guys are something else.

Tendrams, if you'll be at SCI/Reno, I'd like to buy.

Scott, there are a few others you haven't mentioned who have PM'd or emailed me offering to "walk the walk" as well. One long-time poster has offered to split with me whatever I ultimately pay to the hunter in question.

The idea of a guy fighting cancer having to worry about pimping a hunt is difficult for me to even contemplate. I hope and pray he has a successful outcome and will have a terrific safari in 2013.

Duckear, I provided a link to the Bushwack website and didn't quote anything from the website other than using the numbers on the website to do a little math.

I agree completely that the outfitter is sticking with his stated policy and has been exceedingly consistent. Likewise it is not my policy to personally bail out every client who loses a deposit...jut this one.

In my mind every situation is different. If I talked to a customer of mine and legitimately thought he had this situation going on then without question I would refund the money and move one. Every business and situation is different.

Sorry to be a lawyer here, but the deposit is refundable when the contract says it is refundable. The client has the option of booking travel insurance within a short time frame that would cover such a contingency.

I know it's rough in this particular circumstance, but that's the contract and the client had the option to cover himself with travel insurance -- you just have to act fairly quickly -- I think the usual is 14 days or so. If the deposit is a huge financial committment, or you have doubts about your ability to go, buy the insurance.

Or, if you are physically able, just go anyway. My family would understand that decision. On the bright side, wouldn't have to take the anti-malarials, which upset my stomach and wouldn't have to worry about trophy importation. Sorry to be morbid, but I've thought about these issues.

Hi Guys

I think that Patrick has actually been quite lenient here. If he is worth his salt then you can be sure the money is already spent in advance of the client arriving.

Patrick, if it is OK with you I would like to try and help out here by making the hunt more attractive to a potential buyer

If anyone buys this hunt out within the next 30 days I will add on at no charge 2 days of bushpig hunting over hounds. If two people are travelling/hunting together they can split the days between them.
I will send you a signed contract as soon as Patrick passes on the details to me. Dates will need to be arranged etc to suit all parties but lets make this happen.

Chaps, a fellow hunter needs support.
Have a good day to you all.

Ian

quote:

Originally posted by Hunting the Box H:
Hi Guys

I think that Patrick has actually been quite lenient here. If he is worth his salt then you can be sure the money is already spent in advance of the client arriving.

Patrick, if it is OK with you I would like to try and help out here by making the hunt more attractive to a potential buyer

If anyone buys this hunt out within the next 30 days I will add on at no charge 2 days of bushpig hunting over hounds. If two people are travelling/hunting together they can split the days between them.
I will send you a signed contract as soon as Patrick passes on the details to me. Dates will need to be arranged etc to suit all parties but lets make this happen.

Chaps, a fellow hunter needs support.
Have a good day to you all.

Ian

Welcome and damn fine first post.

I didn't want to get involved but feel I need to put in my .02. One is living by the contract(I don't know either of these gentlemen) the other is trying to make the best of a bad situation.
If the Outfitter is agreeable, how about we have an auction or a raffle, 5 or 10 bucks apiece and when we get the proper amount, we have a drawing and the winner gets to pay the rest of the hunt and go. Deposit gets refunded to the original used to be hunter and someone else gets to hunt for a reduced rate? Just a thought.
I had my hunt fully paid for last year and Chifuti's contract specifically states that if hunts are cancelled within 6 weeks (I believe that to be correct) 50% of the monies will be refunded. I had a catastrophic motorcyle wreck 5 1/2 weeks before the hunt.(broke 8 ribs and puctured a lung, separated my shooting shoulder) I had a choice and I went ahead and went on the hunt. Paying for it now because I re-broke 4 ribs during the hunt but I didn't expect them to refund my funds. It was a legal and binding contract that I signed. They made arrangements for me to be there and may or may not have been able to book the spot with someone else but..............

I find the story quite strange where the AR member finds out nearly 7 weeks before he is due to go on safari that he has terminal cancer and then only cancels 5 days before.

He seems quite adamant that he needs the deposit back in his time of need so this seems something that has featured on his mind and not something he suddenly realised he needed to do 5 days before heading of to Africa.

He seems to have made his mind up that he could not go in 2012 or 2013, and of course with cancer, even terminal, there is no knowing just what the final outcome will be or when but why a wait 7 weeks to decide to cancel?

A contract is a contract and there is insurance to cover these situations. I would feel some sympathy had the time frames been not as they are.

Patrick has done nothing I would question and has offered other options.

BTW
I was given the dreaded news too 8 or so years ago and went through 6 months chemo followed by 6 weeks daily radio therapy.
No time for sympathy, got on with my job in between the usual bouts of feeling sick and still did my fishing and hunting to the limit allowed by the low blood count each time it was knock down with chemo. Had I been booked for Africa I would have gone come hell or high water.

All clear and still going strong as much as normal aging allows

Ok, as the hunter who inadvertently stared this discussion, I'll set a few things straight. I cancelled the hunt 2 days after being diagnosed, approximately 3 weeks after sending in the deposit. Everything was put together pretty quick, probably not the best way to do this in hindsight.....I travel to SA a bit on business and had booked the trip around a business trip, which of course was canceled as well. It has been roughly 7-9 weeks since this all started.

I fully understand Patrick's need to recoup his expenses and I would gladly reimburse him for these expenses and have offered to do so with no luck. I understand the legality of a contract, he is well within his rights. Probably not what I'd have done, but it takes all types to make the world go around..... Trying to sell the hunt has proven unsuccessful thus far, not a single offer.

I would like nothing more in the world than to actually go on this hunt. My doctor has nixed all travel and to be honest, I physically would not be able to do it after the chemo regimin I'm on. It has taken its toll and will continue to do so I'm afraid. To those folks who questioned my honesty, I'll gladly send you some before / after pictures since I've been diagnosed.......

I'm sorry for starting this ruckus, I was just trying to get back some of the deposit. I would love to be able to say I'm getting cured and will do this hunt next year when I'm able..... But in speaking with my doctor, I don't have that optimism at this point.

Regards

John

You have absolutely nothing to apologize for. This is a classic case of form over substance. The outfitter wants to focus on the form and ignore the substance, refusing to do the right thing. I wish you all the best with your treatment. Stay positive.

It's not about what's written in the contract, it's about what is the morally right thing to do as an outfitter. I've had family members (including my wife) and close friends who have had cancer, some of which have died because of it. Although it was never me, I can tell you the first thing you think about when you wake up is cancer and the last thing you think about before you fall asleep is cancer. And as great as Africa is, the thoughts of cancer trump the Dark Continent every time. I had contacted Bushwhacker last year about a hunt for next year but geeez if the guy has no heart or sympathy he's not someone I want to hunt with. Lost my potential business and surely several others by the sounds of it. If he'd have eaten the $2500 or whatever amount it was he surely would have made up that amount and much more by his show of generosity. Lost opportunity and bad business strategy. You ever hear of a loss leader?

Most contracts have the exclusion or an inclusion of an act of God, neither the outfitter nor the client should be held accountable or responsible for this sad situation. Both sides have very ligitimate cases , but in the end this type of situation is best resolved with humanity and dignity.

quote:

Originally posted by Safaris Botswana Bound:
Most contracts have the exclusion or an inclusion of an act of God, neither the outfitter nor the client should be held accountable or responsible for this sad situation. Both sides have very ligitimate cases , but in the end this type of situation is best resolved with humanity and dignity.

Is dignity having your name smeared across the Internet??

Valid points made by all, but we still have not found a solution to the problem.

Is there no one willing to buy this hunt.
If any of you can come up with a plan that will allow you to by this hunt then speak up.

As mentioned I have added two days of Bushpig hunting over hounds to the pot to make it more attractive. Maybe someone else can add more to make it something you cant refuse.

Please remember that Bushwack has made this hunt transferable for a year so there is still plenty of time to make it happen.

I feel for John. My father and grandmother died of cancer. My aunt and my girlfriend have both had breast cancer. It is an awful disease.

As a business owner who has many bills to pay regardless of what is going on, I feel for the operator of Bushwhack Safaris. He no doubt has costs he has to cover regardless of whether clients show up. He wasn't given much time to find a replacement. The 5 day timeframe makes it virtually impossible to find a timely replacement. Those of you who have never had to make the payroll,pay the rent, insurances, utilities etc when the money didn't come in timely probably can't appreciate that situation.

While I feel bad for John, I would be a lot more sympathetic had he given Bushwhack more time. Why did he wait so long to notify? If he couldn't afford to lose the money, why wasn't insurance purchased ?

If I sat on a jury that heard this case from I have read here, I would be inclined to find for the Outfitters side with the terms of the no refund clause. However I truly believe the funds should be refunded to the client based on humanitarian reasons.

What this is really about is a fellow hunter found himself in a very tough situation. What really matters here, is that good men like Forrest and others saw a need and stepped up to help. Fellowship, and compassion were the solutions! Those were provided out of just simple compassion and caring. From one human being to another. Simple, profound!

Where do you guys buy trip insurance. is there one particular company that understands safaries?

It is always in the benefit of a business man to have a good reputation and be on best terms with his clients(however difficult that may be).I would give the deposit back.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I feel for John. My father and grandmother died of cancer. My aunt and my girlfriend have both had breast cancer. It is an awful disease.

As a business owner who has many bills to pay regardless of what is going on, I feel for the operator of Bushwhack Safaris. He no doubt has costs he has to cover regardless of whether clients show up. He wasn't given much time to find a replacement. The 5 day timeframe makes it virtually impossible to find a timely replacement. Those of you who have never had to make the payroll,pay the rent, insurances, utilities etc when the money didn't come in timely probably can't appreciate that situation.

While I feel bad for John, I would be a lot more sympathetic had he given Bushwhack more time. Why did he wait so long to notify? If he couldn't afford to lose the money, why wasn't insurance purchased ?

Sound reasoning Larry.

The outfitter is running a business - it is also his livelihood that gets affected and while the safari business tends to (but not necessarily) build friendships and in many cases repeat clients, does not imply that the outfitter is bound to bear the brunt of an 11th hour misfortune that has befallen a client.

If the down payment/deposit had been made on the purchase of a house, car or any other business proposition, would the same request of a refund apply?.....I would hardly think so as the purpose of such payment is the standard practice employed in confirming acceptance of the transaction, harsh as it may seem.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by Safaris Botswana Bound:
Most contracts have the exclusion or an inclusion of an act of God, neither the outfitter nor the client should be held accountable or responsible for this sad situation. Both sides have very ligitimate cases , but in the end this type of situation is best resolved with humanity and dignity.

Is dignity having your name smeared across the Internet??

When you deserve it, yes.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by Safaris Botswana Bound:
Most contracts have the exclusion or an inclusion of an act of God, neither the outfitter nor the client should be held accountable or responsible for this sad situation. Both sides have very ligitimate cases , but in the end this type of situation is best resolved with humanity and dignity.

Is dignity having your name smeared across the Internet??

When you deserve it, yes.

Mike,

I honestly think the above comment is uncalled for if you are referring to the outfitter in this case.

We can argue until the cows come home, and probably not reach an agreement.

But, the fact of the matter is the client left it far too late for anything the outfitter could have done.

I know, it is not his fault. Neither is the outfitter not refunding the money is wrong either.

How do we know how the outfitter's business is running this year?

What right have we to pass judgement on the outfitter when he has not done anything wrong?

What he had offered the client ismore than reasonable, and I think his name should not be bandied on the Internet in a negative manner.

I know if I had a cancer I would give that hunt to a friend and tell him to go have fun, and years from now, to think of me once in a while when he/she looks at the mounts, and to do the same for someone else should the chance arise.

I also know $2400 would be the last thing I would worry about if I had cancer. Hell, how many of us lost many multiples of that yesterday in the market?

Finally, I don't think this guy's name is being dragged down. I would never book a hunt with him, but he doesn't come across as terribly negative. And while I generally agree with ForrestB and respect him greatly, I don't agree with the math here: there is the opportunity cost to consider. He can sell the animals next year for sure, but that is like telling a farmer he isn't losing money by not sending the pigs to slaughter: after all, he can always do it next year. And from what it sounds like, Bushwhacker might not be too different from a farm anyway.

Saeed,

You are correct, these sorts of judgment issues are a matter of perspective and everyone will view them differently. Personally, I would error on side of compassion and would have refunded the deposit. Candidly, the outfitter would have been far better off to do have done so than to have simply relied on the contract. As someone else pointed out, the outfitter has likely done himself far more harm financially prospectively than is represented by the modest deposit that he is retaining. My guess is that even his defenders on this thread would, regardless of protestations to the contrary, be reluctant to turn around and book with this outfitter.

Another issue that has not come up on this thread is the ability of the outfitter to resell the hunt. Some seem to believe or suggest that there are a finite number of hunts and a hunt not taken is lost. The reality is that when quota is not shot the outfitter typically will resell that quota to another hunter. This discussion has come up on lion hunting before. I am confident that some outfitters actually make money on unsuccessful hunts by being able to resell the quota to another hunter at an exaggerated trophy fee. Should an outfitter be able to profit on an unsuccessful hunt if the quota is resold?

Let's not forget what Carolinaman said, "I cancelled the hunt 2 days after being diagnosed, approximately 3 weeks after sending in the deposit." Under those circumstances, if some are comfortable saying "a deal is a deal, let's rely on the contract" so be it. I would have refunded the deposit and I think it was wrongheaded of the outfitter to refuse to do.

There is a saying here, "a penny wise and a pound foolish". That is exactly the situation in my view. And does the outfitter deserve to be called on refusing to act with compassion, in my view, yes.

Mike,

Animals that are on quota for a season,and not shot - like in Tanzania - cannot be carried over to the next year. And the outfitter is actually selling time - his daily fees - which cannot be replaced if no one else is found to take over the hunt.

My answer has been to the question "when should a deposit should be refunded".

The example given with this gentleman is just one, and as none of us knows what the outfitters circumstances are, it is very hard to pass judgement on him.

From a personal point of view, if I was in such situattion, I would not even consider asking for a refund. knowing that the contract actually says "non-refundeable" and how late it was too.

The outfitters sugestion that the deposit can be carried over to the next season is more than reasonable.

This outfitter has suffered little or no damage by this string on AR. The hunting world and that includes Africa does not revolve around AR. I couldn't count the number of hunters I have ask "Do you post or know about AR" and by at least 10 to 1 the the answer is no.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Let's not forget what Carolinaman said, "I cancelled the hunt 2 days after being diagnosed, approximately 3 weeks after sending in the deposit." Under those circumstances, if some are comfortable saying "a deal is a deal, let's rely on the contract" so be it. I would have refunded the deposit.... There is a saying here, "a penny wise and a pound foolish". That is exactly the situation in my view.

+1. Actions can be legal but still be "bad form" and sufficient to taint the image of an outfitter. I don't think we will hear from the bigger outfitters on this thread, but can anyone imagine some of the regulars around here refusing to return a $2500 deposit for a short PG hunt under the circumstances? I sure can't.

Something no one has mentioned is....what if the shoe was on the other foot? If, for example, you had a $2500 deposit down with an outfitter in Africa or the US and he was severely injured so as to never walk again or even killed.....would you go after your deposit? Demand it from his widow immediately? How long after the funeral is it appropriate to wait before asking for it? Do you sue her? While I might be within my rights to do so, I would feel like a complete jerk if i did. "Hi, widow X....is that funeral paid for yet? I need my $2500"

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
From a personal point of view, if I was in such situattion, I would not even consider asking for a refund. knowing that the contract actually says "non-refundeable" and how late it was too.

Saeed,

That decision is again based very much on an individual's personal situation. Here is a person facing his own mortality, I do not know what his family or financial situation is, but the money may mean far more to him than it would to others. Again, he did not wait three months to cancel the hunt after receiving his diagnosis, he did so in two days. Likewise, this was not a hunt that was booked years in advance, it had only been booked for three weeks. So when we talk about the cancellation coming late, the reality is that the whole transaction has a last minute sort of feel to it. Which makes me question just how reliant the outfitter really was on the deposit. Reasonable minds can differ, I would still would have given back the deposit.

Unfortunately, the current reality as a result of all this, is that John (Carolinasman) is going to have a very hard time selling this hunt. Nobody wants to book with Bushwacker apparently, and anybody who would have made John an offer under the deposit amount would feel like a total heel given that the generous souls on this board have offered to make up the difference.

IMO, the best all-around solution would be somebody to send John the deposit and buy this as a credit towards a hunt, then work with Bushwacker to come up with a hunt that interests them using this credit, with Bushwacker sweetening the pot with a few n/c cull animals and/or an extra day, and taking Hunting the Box H up on his kind gesture.

John - I wish the best in your battle, you are not alone in your condition, nor your fight as everybody who reads this is pulling and praying for you.

quote:

The outfitters suggestion that the deposit can be carried over to the next season is more than reasonable

This is pretty much the norm and is not uncommon for hunts being carried forward a year or two due to health or economic problems. The only setback to an 'extended delay' in concluding the hunt may be a possible price increase which will have to be met.

This is a tough deal for everybody involved.

About 10 years ago I had a hunter cancel a Sonora mule deer hunt less than a week from his hunt date and wanted me to refund his 50% non refundable deposit. He had been booked for about a year. I did not return it but I did spend quite a bit of time that week searching for a replacement to try and recover all or a portion of his deposit for him. The fact of the matter was the deposit was $4000 and I had more that into just his tag and paperwork that had already been done. I lost money by him cancelling so late

If the hunter cancelled shortly after booking and I had not had that spot reserved on a ranch with very limited space for a year it would have been a no brainer to return the deposit and wish the hunter well and hope to hunt with him in celebration of beating cancer in the future.

Drummond

I have an envelope on the counter with a check for $3720.00 as deposit for 12 day PG hunt in RSA and buf cull hunt. It will be mailed minutes after I conclude a call to Cabelas having purchased travel insurance that covers the deposit. I will make another call to Cabelas when the air tickets are purchased and a visit to NRA site for firearms insurance. Total cost, about $350.00.

I feel sorry for the hunter who lost his deposit, but this is a great case for travel insurance.

I got a message reminding me that in Tanzania an outfitter has to pay for a minimum 40% of his quota, regardless if he shoots is or not.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I got a message reminding me that in Tanzania an outfitter has to pay for a minimum 40% of his quota, regardless if he shoots is or not.

Just curious but is this the only country that requires this

Does Zimbabwe have a minimum percentage?

Once again, the hunt in question was booked on a Game Ranch in RSA. Big difference from Tanzania!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I got a message reminding me that in Tanzania an outfitter has to pay for a minimum 40% of his quota, regardless if he shoots is or not.

In Zim, in some areas I think that they have to pay for all of their quota (so called, fixed quota), regardless of whether anything is shot. But Tanzania or Zim are not a game ranch in South Africa.

My point on quota was simply that I think outfitters actually profit in many cases on unsuccessful hunts. If someone buys a leopard hunt and is unsuccessful, then the outfitter is facing the possible payment for the unused leopard quota/trophy fee. If, however, he sells that leopard tag to the next hunter in camp, at an exaggerated trophy fee, then the outfitter has not only been made whole on all his daily rates and the trophy fee, but has profited to the extent of the amount of the exaggerated trophy fee in excess of the base trophy fee. I think hunters booking hunts (I am talking here about hunts for leopard, lion, trophy bull elephants in particular) need to bear that in mind and discuss with their outfitter whether, if they are unsuccessful on the object of the hunt, and if the outfitter resells the quota for the trophy to another hunter, anything in excess of the base trophy fee will be credited to the unsuccessful hunter. The outfitter is completely whole, he has sold two hunts at full daily rates and he has covered the trophy fee that he would otherwise be looking to pay on the unsuccessful hunt. Otherwise, there is a perverse incentive for the outfitter to be unsuccessful on one hunt and resell the quota for an even larger profit on a subsequent hunt.

IMO,business should not only be a one way street.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I think hunters booking hunts (I am talking here about hunts for leopard, lion, trophy bull elephants in particular) need to bear that in mind and discuss with their outfitter whether, if they are unsuccessful on the object of the hunt, and if the outfitter resells the quota for the trophy to another hunter, anything in excess of the base trophy fee will be credited to the unsuccessful hunter.

Frankly, the system of perverse incentives is I think most common in the realm of the cats. This is why we as hunters should really only look seriously at Leopard and Lion hunts with relatively low daily rates and high trophy fees. For example, and just as example without regard to current market prices for such a hunt, I would never in a million years consider a ten day lion hunt with daily rates of $1500 per day and a $5000 trophy fee. Much better to see $800 per day and $12,000 or even $13,000 trophy fee on such a hunt! In the latter case, I am obviously willing to pay a $1000 total premium for what is essentially "pricing structure reassurance" or "signaling" that the outfitter is not only honest, but truly confident in our success. I recall that there was recently a leopard hunt priced this way here on AR and I was happy to see it. I also believe that this is how Ganyana prices his lion hunts occasionally which is also good to see!