I got an offer that was too good to refuse, so I am going to Tanzania again for Elephant as primary quarry.

To those who have been there, done that-

I have a .375 H&H that is for lack of better terms my light rifle. I also use a .416 Rigby for buffalo. Both are more accurate than I am.

I also brought a .470 double Merkel from one of the guys here, which I have played with some. It is not in the same league accuracy wise as the bolt guns, but I can keep both barrels in a paper plate at out to 75 yards or so offhand.

The question arises, as this is a 21 day full bag hunt, whether I should bring a 3rd gun. I have the cats on quota, although I doubt that I will have a chance to better my Lion from last year.

Is the hassles of bringing 3 rifles worth it in this case?

TIA

One would be ample - two for just for kicks.
The 416 would do the job but if you want to take 2 rifles, the 375 and 470 would probably be the correct choice.
With your battery and caliber of rifles, taking all three would be pointless unless you are worried about a breakdown on the bolt rifle you intend taking along.

Whatever you take......just PRAY your ammo arrives! Do not take just a gun case and luggage bag. Take your gun case and 15 small luggage bags, putting some ammo in each bag. That will cost you about the same as the down payment on your hunt.....but increases your odds greatly of getting a bag or two. Frickin' airlines.

All the mentioned calibers are classic African calibers and can be had within a couple of phone calls - 416 Rem/Rigby included.
The negative side is probably having to re-sight the rifle if it has been zeroed "hot".

The missing ammo issue. They sandbagged me in Amsterdam by not putting my large suitcase which had all ammo and clothes on plane. I had two very expensive clubs when I flew into camp for 21 days. But I also knew there was 375 H&H ammo in camp that is one of Pierre's rifles.
I always leave behind my 375 ammo when leaving camp. Any ammmo is better then no ammo.
When they are preparing to start boarding go up to the counterand have your luggage tickets and ask if all your luggage has been loaded. Next time Iam going to put half ammo in two different cases.
But I was lucky ammo and bag arrived in camp 2 days later.

Mike

Since Elephant is primary take the 416 and 470. I don't see the need for three.

The 416 and the 470. Accuracy of the Merkel also very suffcient.

416 and 470.

Charles,

Three rifles will be a PIA. Take the 470 and the 416 or 375 which ever suits your fancy.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
One would be ample - two for just for kicks.
The 416 would do the job but if you want to take 2 rifles, the 375 and 470 would probably be the correct choice.
.

quote:

Originally posted by Palmer:
Since Elephant is primary take the 416 and 470. I don't see the need for three.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
416 and 470.

All are good choices but like most here I wouldn’t take three rifles on this safari! My choice would be with Fugotupu. The reason I’d take the 375H&H over the 416 Rigby is as you say the cats are on license as well, and in my opinion the 375H&H is perfect for lion and/or leopard, and is still legal back-up for the 470NE double. For ammo for the 375H&H I would take 20 solids, and 20 softs either Nosler partitions or Swift A-frames. This way with an outside chance of the Merkel going bad, the 375H&H can still take your elephant with the solids, and the cat and other game with the softs.
.........................................................................

I brought three rifles with me on my last trip to Zim. It didn't cost me any more than bringing two. If you want to bring three, I don't see why you wouldn't!

Pete

two rifles: .375 & .416 makes the best sense to me. No real need for three.

quote:

Originally posted by talentrec:
I brought three rifles with me on my last trip to Zim. It didn't cost me any more than bringing two. If you want to bring three, I don't see why you wouldn't!

Pete

In Tanzania 3 will cost more than 2. TZ outfitters charge $250 per gun (or more) for each Firearms Permit.

I went to Tanzania 2 yrs ago, (21 day hunt) & took a 375 H&H Bolt Action & a
500/465 NE Double. This would be very similar to your arsenal. I thought it
was a perfect combination. Actually, the 470 is probably better than a 500/465
because of ammo availability.

Use the double on elephant & buff, the 375 can handle everything else without
a problem. You also have two calibers that you could probably scrounge up
replacement ammo for on short notice!

I would also bring 60+ rounds of 375, you may shoot a lot in 21 days.

Have a great safari.

Jim

Timely thread as I too have a similar choice for June having recently picked up a 450 3 1/4 double. I was going to take my .375 H&H and .416 Rigby. Both shoot accurately.

The 450 handles nicely and can shoot in the hands of the right person. I'm just not sure I'm that person yet (my 58 year old eyes are having some problems with the sights) and I only have 7 weeks to go.

The .375 will go for sure, at this point it will be the .416 as the second rifle unless I get better with the double. Recoil is not an issue. The Rigby has more perceived recoil than the Army Navy.

From your description of hitting a pie plate at 75 yards offhand I think your choice would more be based on what guns you want to take.

It is tempting to take a double to Africa especially since you have Elephant on quota.

quote:

Originally posted by Jungleboy:
I went to Tanzania 2 yrs ago, (21 day hunt) & took a 375 H&H Bolt Action & a
500/465 NE Double. This would be very similar to your arsenal. I thought it
was a perfect combination. Actually, the 470 is probably better than a 500/465
because of ammo availability.

Use the double on elephant & buff, the 375 can handle everything else without
a problem. You also have two calibers that you could probably scrounge up
replacement ammo for on short notice!

I would also bring 60+ rounds of 375, you may shoot a lot in 21 days.

Have a great safari.

Jim

How much double ammo soft & solid did you take?

The ammo question came to mind here. You are limited to 11 kg. I have never had anyone weigh mine, but I would hate to get caught with more - who knows what they would do.

Taking three rifles would require a lot of ammo. Also, some airlines limit you to two rifles per case; I think Delta does, but I might be wrong.

I like Mac's advice. I think he nailed it with respect to the cats. My guess is you could get a second shot faster with the .375 than the .416.

Frostbit,

I took 60 rounds of 375 (45-50 soft & 10-15 solid) & 20 rounds of 500/465.
Most likely in the double you will need primarily solids, although a few softs
are handy for first shots at buffalo.
I believe this will give you enough ammo to sight-in, shoot bait & trophies,.
I think if you take a large bore double, 20-30 total rounds is plenty.
Good luck this June, hope to see nice trophy photos & hunt report!

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Charles,

Three rifles will be a PIA. Take the 470 and the 416 or 375 which ever suits your fancy.

Mark

+1
The double might not be super accurate but if you want to brain an Ele with a double just make sure you can place your off hand shots within a dinner plate at 40 paces.

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Charles,

Three rifles will be a PIA. Take the 470 and the 416 or 375 which ever suits your fancy.

Mark

+1
The double might not be super accurate but if you want to brain an Ele with a double just make sure you can place your off hand shots within a dinner plate at 40 paces.

"but I can keep both barrels in a paper plate at out to 75 yards or so offhand".

Looks like CRB has more than qualified himself....doubled the distance and a slightly smaller target (10")?

Just a minimum requirement IMO.

Thanks for the replies folks-

the money for gun permits, etc. is not that big of a deal, but hauling all that "stuff" around airports is, and the ammo count may make a bigger deal than I thought.

I guess I will have to think for a while about what I really want to do... I was hoping folks would say that 3 guns is no big deal- stuff them all in a tuffpack and be done with it, but it looks like that is not the case.

470 and 416.

If the double failed, I want to have the 416 as my backup for elephant and buffalo.

I know from your report here previously that you shot a helluva TZ bag just a few months back. It sounds like this trip is mostly about elephant and buff. A 416 is better suited to that quarry than a 375.

I would take the 470 and the 375. Since you are going on a full bag 21-day hunt, the 375 is much more versatle than the 416. It is perfect for lion and will do for the smaller PG and leopard. The 416 just doesn't have the versatility that you need. Use the 470 for elephant and buff and the 375 for the rest.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
The 416 just doesn't have the versatility that you need. Use the 470 for elephant and buff and the 375 for the rest.

465H&H

Interesting. Not of the school of thought that anything the 375 can do, the 416s can do better?

quote:

Originally posted by safari-lawyer:
470 and 416.

If the double failed, I want to have the 416 as my backup for elephant and buffalo.

I know from your report here previously that you shot a helluva TZ bag just a few months back. It sounds like this trip is mostly about elephant and buff. A 416 is better suited to that quarry than a 375.

+1

quote:

Originally posted by tygersman:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
The 416 just doesn't have the versatility that you need. Use the 470 for elephant and buff and the 375 for the rest.

465H&H

Interesting. Not of the school of thought that anything the 375 can do, the 416s can do better?

That is true for me. The 416s are not as good as stoppers as are the 450 and above class of cartridges on elephant or buff. They are also not as versatile for the smaller animals as the 375s. Too much recoil and weight for general bag hunting and the 375 shoots flatter. The 416s can be flat shooting with lighter weight bullets but having different bullet weights for one rifle is a disaster waiting to happen when DG is on the menu. The poster will be hunting both cats from what he has said which means a lot of bait animals plus trophy PG. The 375 has been the perfect versatile African caliber for 100 years.

465H&H

+1

465,

You are a man with knowledge.

I always used to take three rifles on long, full bag hunts: a heavy, medium and light.

I like rifles, and like to carry a rifle well suited to the game I'm after.

But I've decided that I'm better off with nothing lighter in my hands than a .375 whenever I'm in a place where the next animal I bump into might have big teeth, claws, horns or hooves and an inclination to use them on me.

So lately I have gone with two rifles: a heavy and a medium .375.

Or when I have decided to take three rifles, I have gone with two heavies (a secondary just in case the primary fails) and the medium .375.

The .375 makes for a great plains game rifle in any case.

May I ask why do you need more then the .416 for your hunt?

I own only two guns (30-06 and .458Win Mag) so bringing a third gun is not an option for me, I just always use my .458

So if he brings the 375 for the full bag hunt, which one bullet does he use?

quote:

Originally posted by tygersman:
So if he brings the 375 for the full bag hunt, which one bullet does he use?

In my case it would be the Barnes TSX in 300 grains with a worked up load for Barnes banded solids printing close to the TSX.

But I think with Elephant as the main target I would take the .375 & 470. If one gun I would take the .416 solely based on Elephant being on the menu.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by tygersman:
So if he brings the 375 for the full bag hunt, which one bullet does he use?

In my case it would be the Barnes TSX in 300 grains with a worked up load for Barnes banded solids printing close to the TSX.

But I think with Elephant as the main target I would take the .375 & 470. If one gun I would take the .416 solely based on Elephant being on the menu.

So that's one vote for two bullets for the 375 (really making it no more versatile than the 416 ....). Or as you say, he could just solve the two gun issue and bring the 416 ....

I don't disagree with you by the way.

And I don't disagree with 465 vis-a-vis the recoil and potential weight issue, but I don't necessarily see the 375 as any more versatile than the 416s on a full bag hunt). I'm here to learn though.

Just a thought.......why not just take the 375 and concentrate on marksmanship and putting ONE bullet where it can do most damage than worrying about having this rifle for that and that rifle for this.
By taking just the one rifle you will always heve the right one for the job in your hand when you need it.
As I said.........just a thought.

quote:

Originally posted by tygersman:

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by tygersman:
So if he brings the 375 for the full bag hunt, which one bullet does he use?

In my case it would be the Barnes TSX in 300 grains with a worked up load for Barnes banded solids printing close to the TSX.

But I think with Elephant as the main target I would take the .375 & 470. If one gun I would take the .416 solely based on Elephant being on the menu.

So that's one vote for two bullets for the 375 (really making it no more versatile than the 416 ....). Or as you say, he could just solve the two gun issue and bring the 416 ....

I don't disagree with you by the way.

And I don't disagree with 465 vis-a-vis the recoil and potential weight issue, but I don't necessarily see the 375 as any more versatile than the 416s on a full bag hunt). I'm here to learn though.

Apparently there is some confusion on your part on the bullet issue. I was talking of one bullet weight not different brands of the same weight. Usually, most 300 grain bullets, whether solid or soft will shoot close enough together for field use in the 375. It is much harder to get them to shoot together if they are of different weights. To flatten trajectory in the 416 you would have to drop bullet weight well below the normal 400 grains.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by tygersman:

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by tygersman:
So if he brings the 375 for the full bag hunt, which one bullet does he use?

In my case it would be the Barnes TSX in 300 grains with a worked up load for Barnes banded solids printing close to the TSX.

But I think with Elephant as the main target I would take the .375 & 470. If one gun I would take the .416 solely based on Elephant being on the menu.

So that's one vote for two bullets for the 375 (really making it no more versatile than the 416 ....). Or as you say, he could just solve the two gun issue and bring the 416 ....

I don't disagree with you by the way.

And I don't disagree with 465 vis-a-vis the recoil and potential weight issue, but I don't necessarily see the 375 as any more versatile than the 416s on a full bag hunt). I'm here to learn though.

Apparently there is some confusion on your part on the bullet issue. I was talking of one bullet weight not different brands of the same weight. Usually, most 300 grain bullets, whether solid or soft will shoot close enough together for field use in the 375. It is much harder to get them to shoot together if they are of different weights. To flatten trajectory in the 416 you would have to drop bullet weight well below the normal 400 grains.

465H&H

As I said, here to learn, so confusion certainly isn't out of the question. I defer to you loaders on this issue. Just presumed it would be possible for a loader to work up loads for the 416 that consistently shoot acceptably in the ranges expected for most contemplated uses on this guy's safari, which includes ele and buff.

I prefer the 416 over the 375 for the extra punch in energy and frontal area. If you look at the BC of a 300gr TSX in 375 at 2,500fps, and compare it to the BC of a 400gr TSX in 416 at 2.400fps, you'll see that the 416 retains more of it's velocity at the longer ranges. This results in a difference in drop (or flatness of trajectory) of about 1/2" at 200 yards and about 1" at 300 yards. There really isn't much shooting in Africa beyond those distances.

For that reason, my opinion is always in favor of the 416 over the 375. Obviously, that opinion must be tempered with recoil tolerance. If recoil is an issue, choose the 375. If recoil doesn't bother you, I find it hard to choose the 375 over the 416.

quote:

Originally posted by Fritz Rabe:
Just a thought.......why not just take the 375 and concentrate on marksmanship and putting ONE bullet where it can do most damage than worrying about having this rifle for that and that rifle for this.
By taking just the one rifle you will always heve the right one for the job in your hand when you need it.
As I said.........just a thought.

Not a bad thought, especially if thinking about a 416 instead of a 375!

But actually, many of us are gun nuts as much as hunting nuts. Some of those gun nuts are afflicted even further with an irrational lusting for double rifles and actually using them for hunting elephant and buffalo. So the only time I might have the wrong gun for the job at hand would be if a buff of a lifetime was out there at 100 yards or so and there was just no way to get closer. Under those conditions, I MIGHT decide to cheat myself out of the experience of using my double and switch to the scoped rifle! I've done this once before and regretted it. But the use of the double as the primary weapon on such a hunt would be a large part of the experience of being on safari in the first place. If the buff got away while trying to exchange weapons with the tracker, oh well ... that's hunting and I would really prefer to use the double anyway. If being used on an Elephant, well ... I'm not taking any long range shots on an ele. What would be the point!

Beyond that, there are several additional reasons why a hunter would want to take along more than 1 rifle. The obvious reason being that something could happen to one of the guns. Having a back up is a good plan. That exact thing happened to me on safari in RSA in 06. The trigger assembly on my 416 broke leaving me armed with a club. Of course I didn't know this until I pulled said trigger while pointing said club at a buffalo bull about 30 yards away! We had to call off the hunt until I could get the trigger repaired or go back to camp and get one of the outfitters camp rifles. If I'd had another rifle of a legal caliber with which to hunt DG with me on the truck or in the hands of one of the trackers, I could have just swapped and continued the hunt! As it was, I lost a day and a half waiting for a gunsmith to repair the gun. If I'd been in a wilderness area and not RSA, the situation would have been worse!

One other comment on your thought is that there really is no reason one couldn't concentrate on marksmanship and putting the ONE bullet where it can do the most damage, with a 500NE, or 470NE, or 416 Rigby. There really isn't any reason to think that only a 375 is capable of expert marksmanship! And placing that larger bullet with the same expert marksmanship in the exact place where it can do the most damage will do MORE damage than the 375 bullet placed in the same spot!

Let me chime in a bit late here. Your original question was whether it is worth the hassle to take 3 rifles to Africa with you. I personally see no hassle in bringing 3 rifles as opposed to 2. When I hunt the Save in August, I will take a 450/400 double, a 9.3x62 bolt gun, and a .177 air rifle. I can get all 3 in soft cases into a Tuffpack and have the whole thing come in under 50#. It is a bigger issue for me deciding how much ammo I take for each and still keep the total under the limit. If I was going for 21 days, I would almost certainly take 3 rifles despite what the nay sayers might tell me.....and for sure one of those rifles would be a double!