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Here are some of the companies that are operating illegally in Zim. on confiscated Farms. It has been stated that not a single Safari Company is hunting legally on any private farm. The top ten Safari Companies in Zim are all owned, either openly or covertly by Zanu Party hacks.

When Booking Agents and hunters look to make a good deal in Zim they are stealing from the rightful owners and from all of the world. I know some of the Booking Agents on this forum are aware of this and act responsibly but some hide their heads in the sand and pretend it is alright.

Hunters going to Zim are aiding and abetting this rape. All deals and hunts in Zim are suspect at this time and I think we have a responsibility to act honorably..

What do you guys think?

I will post reports from other regions as they become available.


INFORMATION ABOUT ILLEGAL HUNTING
AND POACHING.

Information Contained in this Document:
1. Zimbabwe hunting report including support information
2. Relevant articles from newspaper about the situation in Zimbabwe.

THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION IS CURRENTLY BEING COLLECTED AND WILL BE FORWARDED.
� Report from Zimbabwe Wildlife Society
� Report from SPCA
� Report from the Lowveld � adjacent to Gonarezhou National Park (part of the beleaguered Transfrontier National Park � a joint project between South Africa, Mozambique and Zimbabwe.)
� A selection of zanu pf propaganda reports
� Extensive photographic evidence

THE INFORMATION CONTAINED BELOW HAS BEEN VERIFIED TO THE BEST OF OUR ABILITY UNDER DIFFICULT AND SOMETIMES CONFUSING CIRCUMSTANCES.
WE WELCOME ANY QUERIES.

ZIMBABWE HUNTING REPORT

AUGUST 2003

Zimbabwe once proudly stood as a premiere tourist destination for the international photographic and hunting communities. It was renowned for its strong policies on wildlife and environmental management and was also a popular venue for academics and researchers.

Zimbabwe once boasted several ground breaking projects in sustainable development. However, the government sponsored chaos has virtually destroyed the fragile balance between man and animal. The impoverished rural population living in and around designated conservation areas could have been well on the way to a secure and happy future through smart partnerships with the previous land owners and projects such as Campfire. Now the environment is ravaged and the people are starving.

Due to the present regime�s disastrous land reform programme, poaching and illegal hunting on farms, which were seized from their rightful owners, have become rife. Only a handful of the legal property owners remain. The rest have been evicted by ruling party henchmen. There is no law and order. Poaching and uncontrolled hunting is everywhere.

One such area that has been affected with dire consequence is the Gwaai Valley Conservancy, in the west of the country. This Conservancy was established 1995/6 and was strictly controlled by the regulatory body, the Intensive Conservation Authority (ICA). This watchdog body had the full support and was accredited by numerous international conservation organizations.

In the past, at the start of each hunting season, individual members of the Conservancy had to submit their requests for hunting quotas to the ICA, who then rationalized the information to ensure the Conservancy was not �over hunted�. The applications were then passed on to the National Parks and Wildlife Management (NPWM).

The Gwaai Valley Conservancy once stood as an outstanding example of sustainable development in a wildlife area, with prolific game and huge ecotourism potential. Today, not one of the Conservancy members remains in the Gwaai. Its game has been reduced to an estimated 20% of its previous glory and the people left there are all on the verge of starvation.

Early in July 2003, all farmers in this area, which borders Hwange National Park, were evicted. The Conservancy has now fallen prey to unscrupulous hunting/safari operators from neighbouring South Africa and Botswana. Other areas affected are Bubiana Conservancy, Matetsi and West Nicholson. Few, if any, of these illegal hunters have been registered by the Zimbabwe Ministry of Environment and Tourism and do not hold accreditation with the Zimbabwe Association of Tourism and Safari Operators. In addition, these hunters are working against legislation that declares that in Zimbabwe operators should either own or hold a lease on a suitable concession of land with accompanying animal quota. Some animals also require a Conference for International Trade in Endangered Species (CITES) permit, such as crocodile, leopard and cheetah.

Rates charged by the settlers are far below the going rate and not one cent generated by these illegal hunts is coming back into Zimbabwe. Evidence for this theft is that illegal operators do not adhere to the legislation that requires the foreign currency generated be deposited with the Reserve Bank with the necessary documentation.

Not only is the country losing the precious foreign currency, but in the past the legal property owners in the conservancy would also put a percentage of the money generated from hunting back into improvements, building up stock and wildlife management. This is obviously not being done by the illegal occupants.

In just three short years, the country�s rich wildlife reserves have been decimated. Illegal hunting practices are now rife. If something is not done NOW, Zimbabwe will be turned into yet another arid desert. Generations will gasp in disbelief when shown photographs of its ruined ecosystem. The cost to Zimbabwe�s heritage in financial and environmental terms is immeasurable.


We must act now before it is too late.


The following information can in some cases be supported by documentary and photographic evidence

Listing of affected Gwaai farms

Name of Farm Illegitimate State Beneficiary (or A2 Settler)
Lot 1 Dete Valley Farm Ruben Makanla (ex International Red Cross Employee) Jabulani Mpofu
Lot 2 Dete Valley - Lanamie Ranch Eternity Trading (Pvt)LtdDirector � Jonathan Moyo (Zanu PF Information Minister)
Lot 3 Dete Valley(Lion Ranch) Mrs Alice Nkomo(Mzingili Safaris)Cain Matema (Zimbabwe Ambassador to Zambia)
Sekumi Estates Jacob Mudenda (Chairman of ZanuPF for Matabeleland North)Clifford SibandaPrisca Utete (ZBC manager)
Farm 31 � Railway Farm(owner Delta Corp/Zim Sun) Headman Sibanda (ex National Parks)
Antoinette Ranch (owner Sikumi Pvt Ltd) Alexas ChiasaDavid Ntini Mhlanga
Goodluck Ranch Mark Russell (Current National Parks employee �Warden for Sinematela Camp)Headman MoyoCurtain up Enterprises
Farm 35 � Railway Farm Masala Sibanda
Chamankanu Farm Chris DubeJoel Matema (owns beer/store in Lupane) Bernard Lodlo (Lupani District Council employee)
Lugo Ranch
Sotani Ranch Tshuma NcubeChief Mubikwa (The current �gardener� at this farm is actually a National Parks employee.)
Skukunwa
Hankano Ranch
Umkombo Ranch
Karna Block/Comwood Ranch
Gwaai Ranch
Karna Block West Registered as Tsankaruka Safaris Chief Joseph Dingani
Karna Block East Dr Zhisiiri (Officer in Charge Matabeleland North � Veterinary Department)
Farm 41 Obert Mpofu (Governor Matabeleland North)
Kanando Obert Mpofu (Governor Matabeleland North)


UNAUTHORIZED HUNTING/SAFARI OPERATORS,
OPERATING IN THE GWAAI CONSERVANCY.

Company: Out of Africa Safaris
Owners: Dawie Groenwaldt
Janeman Groenwaldt
Glen Van Rensburg
Nick Van Rensburg

Zimbabwe connection/operator - E K Safaris (Ed Kadzombe)
- Jacob Mudenda

Professional Hunters: Albert Padarizi � ex National Parks Pilot
Dawie Van Der Westhuizen (from Karoi)

American Agent: Richard Putman from Seminole, Alabama
Website: www.seminolesafaris.com

Vehicle numbers: DDM850N
MWF519N
Reported to be hunting on Goodluck Farm.


Company:- Northern Weapons of Louis Trichardt
Owners: Piet Uys
Hendrik Uys

Vehicle registration numbers: MWZ918GP � landcruiser p/u
FBD185N � white Toyota twincab
DPK173N � beige Landcruiser p/u
Reportedly hunting on: Goodluck
Railway Farm 37
Hankana Ranch
Gwaai Ranch

Between the 20-30 August Out of Africa and Northern Weapons were seen hunting in the Gwaai area.

Company: Unkown
Zimbabwean farmers questioned illegal hunters on their farm. The name given to them of the South African hunters are:
Andre de Jaager Vehicle registration number: DMT498GP - Blue Landrover
R M Saunders � resides at Jacks Rand Heart � Alberton
Zimbabwe connection/operator � Elephant Eye Safaris
The above were seen in the company of three American hunters. De Jaager shot and wounded a buffalo on Sotani Ranch.
De Jaager is staying at the lodge on Chamankanu farm. He has also been seen hunting on Lugo and Skukungwa farms.
He has been arrested twice for hunting illegally on Skukungwa farm.


Company: Unknown
Relevant hunter: Mark Sparrow � based in Pietersburg.
Sparrow has been hunting on Hankana Ranch and wants to start a fishing safari business in Masuna island on the Zambezi. He has already made offers to property owners from Masuna. This desire to purchase land is not illegal, but is an indication of his presence in the area.
Zim cell number: 011 211 080
Rsa cell number: 082 477 3620
Vehicle registration number 587 150F
He is involved with the Uys brothers of Northern Weapons, Louis Trichardt.


Company: The Rock of Africa mission
Owner: Henry Nel

(This individual is a story worth following. Nel is a minister in the Rock of Africa Christian mission in Cape Town. He apparently would not allow any blacks into his church there, but is quite happy to form illicit liaisons with Zimbabweans. He is apparently assisting a school in the Gwaai area to justify his position there. He is apparently working out of Kalambeza Lodge and one of his clients shot a hippo on Sekumi estate in the latter part of August.)

Zimbabwean Operators

Company: Zim Africa Safaris
Shaun Steyn
(Father Basil owns one of Southern Africa�s largest curio export companies, based in Bulawayo)
Partner:- Joshua Nkomo�s daughter

Hunted on Railway Farm 31 which is now owned by Delta Corporation/Zim Suns and leased to hitherto unknown entity.

Company: Lalapanzi Safaris
Professional hunters - Jed Moyo
- Gary Hopkins
- Ben Matawadzi - owner

Hunting on Antionette

Ivory Safaris
Pofessional Hunter � Bagman Chauke � hunting on farm LOT 1
Jerome Sefredi � French national selling hunts to French community.
Jerome�s vehicle registration number:- 797-669F

Company: Zengela Safaris
Professional Hunter: Headman Ncube

This company is using Chamankanu Farm�s operator�s license (number 0008) without the farm owner�s permission and on their prehunts have put the name Ugere/bo (Pvt) Ltd.

National Parks signed a blank prehunt form for their activities and on another quota application the company Dream Merchant Safaris, Box 56 Dete, was used, but gave no client information and it does not state what farm the hunt was to take place on.
They also have a prehunt form for a hippo.

Company: Inyati Hunters
Enio di Palma � owner (resident in Bulawayo)
Jacob Mudenda � consultant/associate (Chairman for ZanuPF Matabeleland North)

Been hunting on Goodluck

Company:- Clapalark Safaris

Operating in Matetsi and Kadoma

Company:- Curtain up Enterprises

New beneficiaries of Goodluck.
They have a Dete postbox and have been hunting on Goodluck.

Zimbabwe Professional hunters � probably freelancers

L Chikukwa � working with Henry Nel

Evans Mukanza
In June 2003 he stated to reliable sources that he is able to supply buffalo and elephant out of Sinamatella (This is within the National Park).



National Parks staff taking a part in illegal operations

Elias Marfu � warden at Main camp � Malinde farm
Mark Russell � senior ranger Sinamatella � Goodluck Ranch
Headman Sibanda � previously retired from National Parks -
Albert Paradzi � pilot � previous employee of National Parks
Bagman Chouke � previous employee of National Parks

Mark Russell was recently seen driving a National Parks vehicle loaded with a full fuel drum and fuel containers from Sinamatella camp (Hwange National Park) to Goodluck farm.
In August 2003 he was seen in Bulawayo in the company of South African hunters.

Veterinary staff involved
Dr Zhisiiri � Officer in charge Mat North � A2 beneficiary of Karna Block East.


Quota irregularities

� Gwaai Conservancy and ICA (Intensive Conservation Area) do not allow hunting of hippo, reedbuck, Grysbok. Bushbuck under special permit.
Hippo and reedbuck are on quota issued for this area this season.
� A bushbuck was shot on Antoinette farm without a permit.
There has never been a quota on this property for bushbuck.
� Giraffe have also been put on the quota for Lot 1 of Dete Valley.
This quota was issued to Game View Safaris. P O Box 400 � Bulawayo. The size of the property is incorrect on the quota form.
� One lioness was shot on Lot 1 of Dete Valley.
No lioness on quota for this property.
� The Conservancy policy does not allow tuskless and female elephants on quota. They have now been put on quota.
� It was stated on the quota that �no hunting in the Dete Vlei or close to the lodges�. A lioness was shot on Dete Vlei, by the windmill, on Forestry boundry. The lioness was collared. The collar was tracked and found at the homestead of an evicted farmer, which is now occupied by an A2 settler.
� A bull elephant was shot on lot 1 Dete farm by Ruben Makanla�s client.
� Aug 03 � 3 bushbuck shot by South African Hunters
Bushbuck require a special permit � none were issued.
� Aug 03 � 1 hippo bull shot.
The conservancy does not allow the hunting of hippo.
� A quota was stamped by National Parks. One animal shot by the client on this hunt was not on the quota. For the other two of the animals the quotas had already been exceeded. The clients name was entered incorrectly.
� Another quota stamped by National Parks was again incorrect.
3 Animals shot were not on the quota and 2 animals had already exceeded the season�s quota.

Animals shot in this area since the evictions

� Antionette Farm owned by Sikumi (Pty) Ltd � 2 Lioness and 3 male lions � these were well known. One of the collared lions was shot by a Russian client. (Viktor Dmitrienko)
� Matapula hunters (Client) shot one male lion.
� Mr De Jaager wounded a buffalo on Sotani ranch.
� 1 hand reared female buffalo � axed on the head and killed.
� Known animals shot by illegal hunting operators:
9 Buffalo, 3 Sable, 4 Impala, 1 Bushpig, 2 Zebra, 1 Leopard, 1 Elephant, 2 Kudu,
3 Bushbuck, 1 Hippo, 2 Waterbuck.

Poaching activities reported recently
One of the worst reports received is around the dam on Sotani Ranch. 17 buffalo and 2 sable were found in a snare line.
2 eland cows and a kudu snared two days after the departure of the recently evicted farm owner at the waterhole in front of the camp on Lion ranch.
August 03 - 18 impala carcasses seen on Sikumi Estate. Apparently half were for sale and half were for the youth camp at Kamativi.
Other activities in this area

Bindonvale\Carlisa (owned by a German National)
Clifford Sibanda and Mark Russell ransacked the camp and took all the teak furniture for their operation. Removed all the window and door frames. Fencing has also been stolen.

Sikumi Estate � Crocodile farm. The crocodiles went without food for 10 days, as the property owner was not allowed on to the property. The crocodiles started eating each other.
1000 crocodiles have died as they were not fed since 21 June 03.(unconfirmed)

Lion Ranch � Two tame lions went without food for 10 days, as the property owner was not allowed on to the property.

Lot 2 Dete Valley Farm - A tracking collar off a lioness (Lion research collar), was found in the homestead.

Hwange Safari Lodge Hunters are reported to be staying at this hotel, major shareholders are ZanuPF. One of the companies is Out of Africa Safaris.

24 July � 3 South African Landcruises were seen in the area. All vehicles had removed their number plates. An occupant of one vehicle were seen bribing the official at the veterinary road block. Another was seen driving onto Goodluck Farm.

Hunting blinds have been built at a number of water points.

2 September - four Americans were seen arriving in Victoria Falls. They were collected by a South African operator and were overheard saying they wanted to shoot as much as possible.

4 September - Residents of the Gwaai have reported a significant increase in aircraft movement at night. There is general speculation that trophies are probably being shipped out under the cover of dark.

4 September - At approximately 11h00 � a white landrover belonging to Out of Africa Safaris was seen dropping zebra meat at the PTC offices in Vic Falls. Vehicle registration FBT052N. Public vehicles are not permitted into this area.

4 September - Many of the rightful Gwaai property owners are now being threatened by the new settlers.

Vehicle numbers
These vehicles were involved in the eviction of the farmers and their workers

765-949C � Zanu PF
777 475F � Zanu PF
779 269F � Zanu PF
781 098T � Zanu PF
779 064H � Zanu PF


Weapons
Two shotguns and a rifle were stolen from Lions Den on the night of one farm eviction. The following day the police came and took all the weapons and ammunition from this property. No ZRP receipt was given. They also searched the offices.

An AK47 and two pistols were seen on War Veterans, the night of the evictions from Lions Den.

Staff
On Lions Den the staff were evicted from their homes on 21 June 2003 at 18h30 and made to stand out in the cold (our coldest and wet winter in 30 years) till 1am. They were then loaded on vehicles and dumped on the side of a road.. They were eventually found at 3am by the farmer and moved to safety and shelter.

Homesteads
Homesteads were ransacked and striped of fixtures and fittings. One homestead has not been touched and it is believed that Ruben Nklanga wants this home.


An example of how one of the farms in the conservancy
managed their game prior to eviction.

Year 2000 � size of property 20 000 acres

Buffalo 1200 Wildebeeste 60
Giraffe 3 Zebra 60
Hippo 6 Kudu 40
Impala 90 Reedbuck 6
Eland 1500 Tssessebe 8 � protected
Sable 90 Warthogs 30
Hyena 20 Elephant 150
Lion 12 � nomadic Leopard male 4 � territorial
Wilddog 8 Leopard f/male 8
Baboons 120

Hunting quota for the year submitted to relevant authorities.
Buffalo 9 Lion 1 Wildebeeste 4
Sable 2 Elephant 2 Hyena 1
Kudu 4 Impala 6 Baboon 5
Eland 2 Zebra 4 Duiker 4
Leopard 2 Jackal 2 Steenbok 4

They developed 10 waterpoints, 9 seasonal dams and 2 annual dams.
To date there is no water being pumped to the waterpoints.

When the proprietor of the above farm was recently evicted, approximately 20% of game was left. Loss of game occurred through illegal hunting and poaching. Now that no water is being supplied this game will have moved.

On a neighbouring property nine buffalo were shot in a two week period. This is a small portion of the hunting season which lasts for approximately seven months.


Unauthorized Hunting/Safari Operators,
operating in Matetsi Hunting area.

Botswana operator
Company:- Touch Africa
France Hobart � tel: 71656340
Amongst other animals shot on various hunts, he killed the tame buffalo that was hand reared on Musuma Ranch.

South African operator
Company:- De Marillac Safaris
Associated to: Theo DeMarillac
Vehicle registgration number:- FCJ797N

American agent:- Cabelas

Zimbabwean operator
Company:- Inyati Safaris
Enio di Palma - owner
Jacob Mudenda � consultant/associate
This company has been seen hunting on Woodlands Estate �B�

They are also logging teak in the Fuller Forest.

They sub-let hunts to De Marillac Safaris.

They are based out of Jafuta Camp owned by Forestry Commission.
The animals are skinned at Mubiya Camp (Forestry) so that National Parks will not know where they are being killed.

Inyati Safaris have been caught poaching a kudu and a buffalo in Guzu Safaris area which is a photographic area. The kudu was shot at a waterhole from a vehicle.
(There is also a dispute ongoing about an elephant bull.)

Quota irregularities
France Hobart was reported as hunting, again, on Masuma Ranch early in August.
He shot one of the young giraffe that was bought from Clem Coetsee four years ago. There are no wild giraffe in eastern Matetsi. 6 giraffe were purchased for photographic purposes only. This same Professional Hunter has shot the tame buffalo that were hand reared.

Animals shot in this area since the evictions
� On Woodlands Estate �B� �
2 Lion( one of which was wounded and only shot three days later and National Parks were not advised.)
� 6 Buffalo, 2 Sable, 2 Giraffe, 2 Kudu, 2 Impala and various other species whose details have not been received to date.

Other activities in this area
A South African vehicle has been seen on Woodlands Estate. Vehicle registration number:- FBT052N.

A fair number of South African Hunting vehicles have been seen in Victoria Falls and the areas they are hunting in are not known at this stage.

The above information has been verified to the best of our ability. Information is difficult to collate, but we will do our best to answer any queries.

WE HAVE TO ACT NOW � HOW ELSE DO WE EXPLAIN TO OUR CHILDREN WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO ONE OF THE LAST REMAINING WILDLIFE REFUGES ON THE PLANET?
A COUNTRY TURNED FROM BREAD BASKET TO BEGGAR?

[ 09-09-2003, 01:45: Message edited by: Mickey1 ]
 
Posts: 6277 | Location: Not Likely, but close. | Registered: 12 August 2002Reply With Quote
one of us
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I've booked a hunt (directly) with Peter Johnstone at Rosslyn nr Bulawayo late Oct. Didn't see him on sh-t list and didn't expect to. I hope this assumption is accurate. I invite correction.
In any event, I've copied your posting to him.
Regards
rdash
 
Posts: 94 | Location: Hampshire, UK | Registered: 21 April 2002Reply With Quote
one of us
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Damn!! This shit is too depressing. Looks like the country is rapidly taken over by the bandits and they are getting away with it. Where are the stupid U.N. people? Are they turning a blind eye to the whole cluster-fuck? Looks like nothing is going to be done about it. [Mad] [Mad]
 
Posts: 2034 | Registered: 14 June 2003Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of Duckear
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quote:
Originally posted by 475Guy:
Where are the stupid U.N. people? :

Nobody cares, and that's just sad.
 
Posts: 3108 | Location: Southern US | Registered: 21 July 2002Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of 500nitro
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Taken from African Indaba Newsletter Vol 1 #5
WWF on poaching in Zimbabwe

A small minority of SA and Zimbabwean PH's, their agents from North America and Europe, as well as their clients blatantly disregard ethical standards and decent human behaviour with their callously taking advantage of the unsettled situation in Zimbabwe.
Some of them are claiming to have acted within the law of the country and having been in pesesssion of the required permits, but nevertheless they are abetting the illegal land grabs by acquiring the "permits" from those who drove the rightful owners from their land.
This is absolutely unnacceptable and immoral. They are no better than those who act knowingly against the law.
Beware of special late season offers in Zimbabwe - many of these "offers" are the result of drastically increased - and totally unsustainable quotas!
Names of those involved are known and in time justice will catch up.
If you want to be kept up to date and receive newest information you can either contact the WWF Southern African Regional Office email wwfsarpo@wwf.org.zw or Ben Zietsman, CEO of Commercial Farmers Union, Matabeleland Branch email matabele@cfu.org.zw Other contacts are the Professional Hunting organizations of South Africa and Zimbabwe (details below)
Those who want to lodge formal complaints against any perpetrators may use the prescribed ethics complaints procedures of Safari Club International.
Details are available from Sezaneh Seymour sseymour@sci-dc.org
African Indaba readers should also be aware of the names of Zimbabweans close to mugabe as listed by the US Gov.
You may find some of these names and their relatives as "owners" of hunting ranches, concession holders and/or shareholders in safari companies.
Be sure that you know whom you are hunting with, should you decide to go to Zimbabwe.

Contact info
PH association of SA
phasa@pixi.co.za +27-12-667-2048
Zim PH Association
pangeti@zct.co.zw
----------------------------------------------
Sad that members of this forum do hunt these areas and still enquire about them despite the fact that they have been listed.
Makuti, Charara and Hwange come immiediately to mind [Mad]
 
Posts: 1069 | Location: Durban,KZN, South Africa | Registered: 16 January 2001Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
It is difficult to tell the honest folks from the players at this point. Some of the PH's involved are members in good standing of PHASA or the Zim PH Association. Many of the late season specials I have looked at have turned out to be questionable in my mind. That combined with the continued land grabs have made me reconsider even going to Zim this year. It is not a safety issue it is an ethical one. You cant even depend on PHASA, ZATSO etc to have valid info at this point. I have become very frustrated in attempting to sort this all out. So I have pretty much decided to go elsewhere.

[ 09-09-2003, 14:12: Message edited by: Mike Smith ]
 
Posts: 4106 | Location: USA | Registered: 06 March 2002Reply With Quote
one of us
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This is anarchy, with the strongest staying alive.

Don't judge people you have known poorly, when they may have no choice.

A boycott of Zim would be our best course of action.

What good is an illegal land grab, if no one comes to kill the animals?
gs
 
Posts: 1805 | Location: American Athens, Greece | Registered: 24 November 2001Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of Gator1
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I see two prominent names, 'Out of Africa' and 'Touch Africa'. Both are big players in Safari Club Convention and Chapter Auctions. How many of you SCI types will protest to the national and your local Chapter about their donating?

As someone else stated, anarchy breeds a survival instinct. It makes normally nice and law abiding people do do illegal and immoral things to survive.
 
Posts: 2753 | Location: Climbing the Mountains of Liberal BS. | Registered: 31 July 2002Reply With Quote
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I concur with Socrates. A total boycot of hunting in Zimbabwe should be observed by all ethical hunters. It is our duty.
 
Posts: 337 | Location: North Carolina | Registered: 15 March 2001Reply With Quote
One of Us
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Some more fodder for thought.

From The Mercury (SA),
1 September
Mugabe's man claims top reserve for 'hunting'
By Gustav Thiel
Amid weekend reports that Zimbabwean President Robert Mugabe is building a R60-million retirement mansion, it has emerged that one of his closest allies has claimed the world-renowned Hwange Wildlife Estate to be used for hunting purposes. The estate is home to the "presidential herd" of about 500 elephants, which were given special presidential protection in a decree issued by Mugabe in 1991. Johnny Rodrigues, chairperson of the Zimbabwean Conservation Task Force, said on Sunday that the governor of Matabeleland, Obert Mpofu, "has just simply taken the Hwange estate". "The land will now be a free-for-all for poachers and for him (Mpofu) to allow hunters to kill the animals," he said. The Hwange Wildlife Estate is state-owned and comprises 14 000ha of prime land. Rodrigues said he "would not be surprised if he (Mpofu) next moves to claim land in the Hwange National Park for his own purposes" because there were no fences separating the estate from the park. Hwange National Park is Zimbabwe's biggest game reserve at 14 650km2. Rodrigues added that people like Mpofu "are putting a death sentence on the future heritage of the country and the benefits that wildlife conservation would have had for the people of the country".
It has been estimated that more than $400-million (about R2,9-billion) has been lost in Zimbabwe's southern region because of rampant poaching. Bambo Kadzombe, chairperson of the Zimbabwe Wildlife Advisory Council, said: "Three thousand animals have been poached so far on commercial game farms and Zimbabwe's conservancies, mainly at Save Valley, Mahenye, Bubiyana conservancy, Bubye Valley and Chiredzi River conservancy." In 2002, more than 100 poachers had been arrested and Kadzombe said that if the poaching continued species could become extinct. Rodrigues said it was with that in mind that Mpofu should understand the "folly of allowing hunting at Hwange". He said over the past five years more than 300 of the remaining black rhino in Zimbabwe had been killed. A wildlife researcher based in Zimbabwe said the taking of the land by Mpofu could jeopardise the inclusion of Zimbabwe's Gonarezhou Park in the Limpopo Transfrontier Park, combining three national parks in Zimbabwe, Mozambique and South Africa.
 
Posts: 6277 | Location: Not Likely, but close. | Registered: 12 August 2002Reply With Quote
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It is pathetic how people will make judgements based on a false document. Does anyone know where this letter came from? Is there proof that these Outfitters are hunting illegally? I have checked the registration numbers that was given in this document and found that they DO NOT belong to Out of Africa. So, what else is false about this document? I know from experience Out of Africa is doing everything by the books. They have adequate proof that they are hunting legally and ethically. According to the law of the US, people are innocent before they are proven guilty. According to the respondents of this document, they are guilty before proven innocent. I think there should be legitimate proof that these Outfitters are hunting illegally before judgements are made. If it can be proven that they are illegal, then make a judgement. Otherwise, leave these people alone.
 
Posts: 2 | Location: Kansas City | Registered: 09 September 2003Reply With Quote
new member
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It is pathetic how people will make judgements based on a false document. Does anyone know where this letter came from? Is there proof that these Outfitters are hunting illegally? I have checked the registration numbers that was given in this document and found that they DO NOT belong to Out of Africa. So, what else is false about this document? I know from experience Out of Africa is doing everything by the books. They have adequate proof that they are hunting legally and ethically. According to the law of the US, people are innocent before they are proven guilty. According to the respondents of this document, they are guilty before proven innocent. I think there should be legitimate proof that these Outfitters are hunting illegally before judgements are made. If it can be proven that they are illegal, then make a judgement and take action. If it cannot be proven, then everyone who has slanderized these Outfitters should apologize and/or move on to some other issue.
 
Posts: 2 | Location: Kansas City | Registered: 09 September 2003Reply With Quote
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I have met Sean Steyn and would be disappointed if the report above were true.
 
Posts: 18352 | Location: Salt Lake City, Utah USA | Registered: 20 April 2002Reply With Quote
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Something similar was posted along these same lines awhile back and I ask at the time what those pointing fingers were doing to weed out those they thought were acting improperly and my "sense" of the answers was ....not much except posting names and making threats.

Like 500grains I know Sean and in fact hunted with both him and his company when they had Matetsi 6 a few years ago and I too would need more than a poison pen letter to think ill of him.

It was a sad fact even then that to get the concession for a quality area, you needed to have a "native" partner who was politically acceptable and who didn't do anything except take cash out....before the season was over Sean was forced out of the concession (at a significant loss) and another PH took it over with the same black political partner....no one seemed to care including the booking agent who represented the new PH.

You might ask how they were forced out. Well they arranged a car accident for his Dad (ever notice how many of Mugabe's enemies die in car accidents) and then threw Sean in jail .... an offer the family couldn't refuse was made.

Bottom line......I'd like to see a list of names of viable safari companies that don't have at least a silent black partner for political reasons....if there are any.
 
Posts: 4360 | Location: Sunny Southern California | Registered: 22 May 2002Reply With Quote
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Huntress, I dont know about the 2nd document's source but I do know where the first one came from. Have you read African Hunter magazine and seen a MR X or something titled the x-files. This guy is/was an undercover cop for the wildlife people. If you want further info contact Ganyana. I dont know about a lot of individuals just what I have seen the trend to be. I agree the documents do have some holes but there is a lot of truth there also. As Socrates said I dont judge anyone poorly for trying to survive. I do however judge those who are trying to make a profit at others expense. The main issue as I see it is the government had stolen land from the rightfull owners. The people who have made deals with the squatters ie "the local council" ie Zanu-PF types who have occupied the land are taking advantage of a bad situation. The rightfull owners loose, the wildlfe looses and in the long run so do the folks who now occupy the properties. The animals are their stock in trade and at this rate will soon be gone. It is however a dilema of sorts as a boycott also punishes those who are reputable. I have done enough research and verification of the facts on my own to reach the same conclusions for the most part. It may be legal in the sense that it is within whatever law there is at the moment but it is not ethical. I agree that the people on the original owners sides have an issue. I just see it as everyone looses. It is extremely difficult to determine who is legit and who is not. Even the info I have received from Phasa, Zatso etc changes. You can verify a lot of info through them but not all. I would welcome a solution to this. You have to take a stand somewhere. I welcome any and all suggestions.

PS I have not researched Out of Africa or Sean Steyn so I cant comment on them one way or the other.

[ 09-10-2003, 03:28: Message edited by: Mike Smith ]
 
Posts: 4106 | Location: USA | Registered: 06 March 2002Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Huntress:
It is pathetic how people will make judgements based on a false document. Does anyone know where this letter came from? Is there proof that these Outfitters are hunting illegally? I have checked the registration numbers that was given in this document and found that they DO NOT belong to Out of Africa. So, what else is false about this document? I know from experience Out of Africa is doing everything by the books. They have adequate proof that they are hunting legally and ethically. According to the law of the US, people are innocent before they are proven guilty. According to the respondents of this document, they are guilty before proven innocent. I think there should be legitimate proof that these Outfitters are hunting illegally before judgements are made. If it can be proven that they are illegal, then make a judgement and take action. If it cannot be proven, then everyone who has slanderized these Outfitters should apologize and/or move on to some other issue.

A bit defensive for your first two posts ????

I note no email address etc.

Come on what is your real commercial name?
 
Posts: 10138 | Location: Wine Country, Barossa Valley, Australia | Registered: 06 March 2002Reply With Quote
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Comments removed for the time being.

[ 09-11-2003, 19:00: Message edited by: NitroX ]
 
Posts: 10138 | Location: Wine Country, Barossa Valley, Australia | Registered: 06 March 2002Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Huntress:
.......... I know from experience Out of Africa is doing everything by the books. They have adequate proof that they are hunting legally and ethically...........

Theresa, if Out of Africa is hunting on confiscated land and paying fees to the criminals who took over the property than that is wrong. It doesn't matter if it is legal under the 'NEW' Zimbawe Code of Justice or not.

Making a profit off of the suffering and misery of others, either as an Outfitter, Booking Agent or a Client is morally and ethically wrong.

It is understandable that some of the Zim companies, who have their entire economic future tied up there, may cut corners to survive, but you guys have plenty of property tied up in the RSA. You don't need to hunt on confiscated farms in Zimbabwe to make a living.

For those wanting more information I suggest you contact the WWF Southern Africa Regional Office at wwfsarpo@wwf.org.zw and the Commercial Farmers Union, Matabeleland Branch at Matabele@cfu.co.zw.

[ 09-10-2003, 06:14: Message edited by: Mickey1 ]
 
Posts: 6277 | Location: Not Likely, but close. | Registered: 12 August 2002Reply With Quote
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I would find it hard to believe that Russ Broom safaris now operating on Makuti are doing so with less than proper intentions. I have hunted with them three times in the past and found them to be nothing less than straight operators. Things change and so do countries and if these marginal characters from Botswana and south africa are just trying to make a buck then they should be exposed. However if an otherwise reputable outfitter and safari company is thrown out with the bathwater then thats just not fair. I would like to hear from Russ Brooms clients this year, and I know that there must be several, if they feel that something has changed regarding his operations for better or worse.
 
Posts: 294 | Location: carmichael,califoenia,usa | Registered: 03 June 2000Reply With Quote
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Huntress,

The info posted comes from WWF, CFU, JAG and Zim PH association instigated investigations and in a lot of instances have verifiable and photographic evidence.

And your sources are?
and this your second post?

Mamba,
Makuti was taken by force - fact.
From an ethical point of view, anyone who hunts there is condoning and supporting mugabe.
Russ has goofed in doing so, people should tell him so. Let him run on the concessions he has legal claim to.
 
Posts: 1069 | Location: Durban,KZN, South Africa | Registered: 16 January 2001Reply With Quote
<J Brown>
posted
quote:
Mamba,
Makuti was taken by force - fact.
From an ethical point of view, anyone who hunts there is condoning and supporting mugabe

500nitro
You fucking twit - fact. Makuti is and has been a government concession since before the land grab. You need to get your facts straight before you stat spreading this crap.

I won't name names but on this forum a couple of weeks ago several names were posted of people in Zimbabwe who were in the know and it was said they could tell us all about the bad guys in Zimbabwe I wrote to them and this is an excerpt from one of their replys:

quote:
As to Makuti. Living here I have to be fairly careful as to what I say and the best I can do is to refer you to the articles in the Herald, or the Sunday Times which detail who has the lease for the six concessions given away by the minister - one of which is Makuti - the reports are essentially accurate. The Herald ( the official government newspaper here) referred to these areas as the government's new cash cows. A way for the political elite to make fast money, and this is probably the cause of most of the negative material you have seen on the web. If Mr. Broom is hunting there, he certainly will not be the one milking the system. Mr. E. Fundira is named in the official government report as the beneficiary of the re-allocation of the safari area in question. What the terms of the lease, and sub letting clauses are, I cannot know, and nor can the association, but any hunts conducted there will in all probability be legal in terms of local law.

Makuti offers you a good chance for a reasonable elephant, if indeed, that is where you will be hunting. I am not prepared to comment further than this.

I won't say who this was from but I will say he is well respected and is the first name that seems to come up on this forum when we are being told who to contact to check on the status of different outfitters in Zimbabwe.

The really sad part about the bullshit you are spreading on this forum is the fact that people see that you are from SA and assume everything you say is correct. Please keep your facts straight.

Jason
 
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<J Brown>
posted
500nitro

You said:
quote:
Makuti was taken by force - fact.

I thought this may have been an honoest mistake but then I went back and read some of your earlier posts, look at what YOU wrote:
quote:
Nhema had a reputation for good management until he began giving away the hunting concessions without going through a tendering process. One of the early beneficiaries of his largesse has been his sister-in-law Tendi Nkomo, the daughter of Joshua Nkomo, the late vice-president. She was awarded the Tuli concession for a token US$750. Another beneficiary is Emmanuel Fundira, the minister�s nephew. He was awarded the concession for Makuti, one of the most prized hunting areas where elephant, lion, buffalo and leopard are the main bag.
and
quote:
Sadly, Russ Broom is involved in the dubious concessions, and anything offered in the Makuti /Charara area falls into the "affirmative hunting" category.
I notice you never said anything about FORCE before, why are you now spreading this LIE?

Here is the original post by Ganyana that got this all started:

quote:
There has also been considerable concern by ethical hunters about hunting on government concessions which have been awarded to operators by any means but a transparant one and where the quota's are unsustainable and/or the money is going to finance the regime here rather than conservation.

Fot the sake of the record these concessions are.

Charara
Makuti
Tuli
Doma
Sengwa

Please note no talk of FORCE ever comes up until you brought it up in your last post.

Jason
 
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J Brown,

I concur, force was perhaps too strong a word.
Coercion and corruption coupled with nepotism which changed the Makuti government concession from being a Zimbabwe citizens hunt area into a cash cow for a mugabe supporter.
Perhaps you can come up with a better description ?
It is probably easy to chirp from 10000 miles away where you are not exposed to the heartbreak and hassles of family and friends on a daily basis, and if I get hot under the collar at times, I don't feel I need to aplogise or resort to foul language!
 
Posts: 1069 | Location: Durban,KZN, South Africa | Registered: 16 January 2001Reply With Quote
<lb404>
posted
A year ago and after a trip to Namibia and RSA, I posted to a forum thread about the legitimacy and advisability of dealing with the corruption and illegal actions perpetrated on farmers and ranchers - true legal owners of titled land in Zimbabwe. I felt then as well as now that it was unwise if not immoral to support any business in Zimbabwe at this time. ANY professional hunter or his organization that does not own the land he is hunting really does not have a stake in the outcome of the politics of Zimbabwe. They are just visitors there and These professional hunting groups are adding to the turmoil and uncertainty in the country as they add monies to the currency base that is not theirs to earn. They profit and crooks profit but is any of the money used to help those that deserve the cash????I don't have all the facts. I doubt any one on the forum has any direct knowledge of the facts,and are guessing just like the rest of us arm chair quarterbacks. I hunted with a Zimbabwe professional hunter Jonathan Taylor in Tanzania this year. He had a legal concession there and I put money into his hands that will benefit him and his family. This I prefer to supporting a illicit operation in Zimbabwe.
 
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<J Brown>
posted
500nitro
quote:
Makuti government concession from being a Zimbabwe citizens hunt area into a cash cow for a mugabe supporter. Perhaps you can come up with a better description
No. You are dead on.

Jason
 
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NitroX-----I may be a little dense with respect to what you are trying to say with your reference to the name "Steyn"....is this an accusation that "someone" named Steyn violated CITES....or is this an accusation that Sean and/or his father Basil violated CITES.

Please post the website address if you would as I have also hunted with Sean in the past.
 
Posts: 4360 | Location: Sunny Southern California | Registered: 22 May 2002Reply With Quote
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rdash-I heard that Cawston was occupied and that they had opened a previously bow only ranch to rifle hunting in hopeing to recoup something before the occupiers trashed the wildlife.If anyone knows differently, please chip in as we were planning to look into Cawston but put our plans on hold.If you are using an agent , insist on a complete client contact list for this season.
 
Posts: 1339 | Registered: 17 February 2002Reply With Quote
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Hey Mickey1,

Thanks for shining the light of truth so we can watch these cockroaches of deceit scamper into the corners. It was mighty insightful of you to finger "Huntress" as Teressa Groenewald from Out of African Adventurous Safaris, and in the interest of full disclosure, let me add their properly spelled names, along with their address, phone numbers and e-mail.

Now that we all know Teressa, wife of Janneman Groenewald, and his brother Dawie Groenewald, here are their contact details. Perhaps some of you may want to let them personally know what you think of their business ethics, after all it's a free call. [Wink]

Out of Africa Adventurous Safaris
7930 W. 155th Terrace
Overland Park, KS 66223
1-800-785-9956
1-913-851-2308
1-913-851-2309 - fax
africa@idir.net
www.adventuroussafaris.com

Gator1,

You have hit the nail on the head, the way to make these bastards pay is to rip the wallet out of their pockets while they are still alive.

I call on every SCI member on this forum to foward a copy of this post to all the SCI officers e-mail addresses that you can come up with. Then let's all glory in the high pitched shrieking sound they will make as we scuttle their safari operations in ALL of Africa. Teressa's little outburst will be tame in comparison. As a member of the Georgia Chapter and the Greater Atlanta Chapter I will take the lead in dropping a dime on these characters.

Socrates, Crosshairs, etc.

You guys have the right idea, but are shooting at the wrong country. We should all boycott these sleazy operators in the RSA and put all our safari monies behind the good people of Zimbabwe. To boycott an entire country, either SA or Zim, is to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Whether the rest of you can believe it or not about your favorite safari operator whom you have hunted with before, etc. being a dirtbag........believe it. I have been hearing rumors of this since the Reno convention and the word then was that I wouldn't believe who all was involved in these foul deeds. I am truly shocked that Teressa Gronenewald is involved in something as despicable as this, not to mention Russ Broome, Shaun Steyn, et al. But as far as who to believe, I think I'll defer to the WWF and the Commercial Farmers Union for the truth.

Alan

[ 09-11-2003, 08:21: Message edited by: Alan Bunn ]
 
Posts: 1112 | Location: Georgia | Registered: 09 March 2001Reply With Quote
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Alan, Thanks for all your help as well. It has been very educational. You know I just scanned over the posts and didnt even pick up on huntress. Thanks Mickey1, at least one of us was paying attention.

Oh yea Alan, to quote a phrase from the wizard of oz. I believe, I believe, I believe!

[ 09-11-2003, 03:46: Message edited by: Mike Smith ]
 
Posts: 4106 | Location: USA | Registered: 06 March 2002Reply With Quote
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There are a couple of references to "Inyati Hunters" and "Inyati Safaris" owned by Enio di Palma.

Is this is typo? Do they mean Inyathi Hunters who is represented by Cabelas? Or is this a different company?

Regards,

Terry

P.S.
Here is a report that is similar to the one originally posted.

Report
 
Posts: 5338 | Location: A Texan in the Missouri Ozarks | Registered: 02 February 2001Reply With Quote
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How do people that hunt Zim feel about it?

My general take is it's a great value, and you are supporting good people in the PH's that have to pay off scumbags, the government.

If you withold your trip money, would it really affect Mugabe?

Somehow, I don't think so.

They are pretty much in the RobberBaron category, and very rich, so he, and his thugs aren't going to be really affected.

GOVERNMENT BOYCOTT MAKES SENSE.

How much money do hunters contribute to Mugabe and his boys, per year?

gs
 
Posts: 1805 | Location: American Athens, Greece | Registered: 24 November 2001Reply With Quote
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Alan Bunn

You guys have the right idea, but are shooting at the wrong country. We should all boycott these sleazy operators in the RSA and put all our safari monies behind the good people of Zimbabwe.

ONE GUESS AS TO WHICH COUNTRY MR BUNN'S BREAD/BUN IS BUTTERED IN ?? !!
 
Posts: 214 | Location: UK. | Registered: 14 September 2002Reply With Quote
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Socrates,

If instead of Mugabe and his goons, this was Osama and Saddam. Would you be looking for ways to justify giving them money?
Hopefully you would be outraged at the thought.
To the vast majority of zimbabweans mugabe @ crew are the terrorists and tyrants.

DJ
Hopefully Alan was referring only to the sleazy SA and Zim operators. There are a number of excellent crews out there who do not deserve to be tarred with the same brush, and that is on both sides of the Limpopo.

I don't have all the answers, all we can and should do is bring these shady characters into the limelight and hope that collectively we can impact on their business.
The saying " All that evil needs to pervade is for good men to stand by and do nothing" (or something along those lines) is pertinent in this instance.
 
Posts: 1069 | Location: Durban,KZN, South Africa | Registered: 16 January 2001Reply With Quote
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I find it amazing that people say everyone should boycott an entire country.

That's just like saying everyone around the world should boycott all USA trade because they have mafia front businesses and corrupt businesses such as Enron etc. [Roll Eyes]

It isn't that hard to work out who are the good guys and which ones aren't, especially when the evidence is put in front on you - such as the post above.

Probably a lot of even reputable safari companies have "partners" who are "connected", that's why they stay in business and are successful. When the regime inevitably changes don't think that way of doing business in Africa (or Asia or South America or even the US of A) will change.

But to deal with people that are hunting on land stolen from the legal owners or outfitters that are hunting there illegally is just contributing to the destruction.

But I know who friends are and would see no issue with doing more business with them. What sort of friend are you if you turn away from people when they are having difficulties?

DB Bill

PM sent

The post and the dealings above should be enough don't you think. What more do you need to know who you are dealing with?

[ 09-11-2003, 19:16: Message edited by: NitroX ]
 
Posts: 10138 | Location: Wine Country, Barossa Valley, Australia | Registered: 06 March 2002Reply With Quote
<lb404>
posted
It was my understanding that most of the legitimate white farms were under forced eviction, therefore, those who operate there now have no stake in the country other than to make a buck .If you are not a citizen of the country and lease land to sell hunts, then you using the system the detriment of the original land owners. I would have no qualms supporting a legitimate land owner. According to Jonathan Taylor, there are very few legitimate land owners currently offering safaris in Zimbabwe NOW!!!! Current safari companies may be holding a government lease from the "reorganized" land, but that still does not add legitimacy to the situation. I could be taking an over simplfied stance on this issue, but I am a black and white type-----mostly white! [Big Grin] [Big Grin] [Big Grin]
 
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lb404

10% of the previous white owned farms are still in existence and hopefully stay that way.

But what difference does a lease vs land ownership make? A lease is still a legal right to enkjoy certain property rights - eg commercial hunting rights.
 
Posts: 10138 | Location: Wine Country, Barossa Valley, Australia | Registered: 06 March 2002Reply With Quote
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I posted this report, that has been put together by the WWF, Commercial Farmers Union, and the Zimbabwe Professional Hunters Assoc. If you choose to pull the covers over your head to hide from the dark or choose to pretend it is not true because you once hunted with one of the people named and feel that he is your best friend than that is up to you.

If you choose to go and spend your money with these people, and with others like them, than that is your choice. As Socrates states there are alot of 'Good Deals' over there.

My purpose was to expose these people, and if given the information, others like them. I believe that we all should do our part to try and stop this. I am sure it is like pissing in the wind. Others will take any opportunity to take advantage of any situation if it benifits their pocket and it is probably a loosing battle but I feel like I am trying and am happy with that.

There are plenty of legitimate operators in Zim. All you have to do is run a check through the above mentioned groups. It might cost a bit more but what is your character worth to you?

To steal a line from Terry Carr's signature.
Msasi haogopi mwiba. [A hunter is not afraid of thorns.]
 
Posts: 6277 | Location: Not Likely, but close. | Registered: 12 August 2002Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by J Brown:
[QUOTE] The really sad part about the bullshit you are spreading on this forum is the fact that people see that you are from SA and assume everything you say is correct. Please keep your facts straight.

Jason

With all due respect Jason, I think most of us can read between the lines on most postings regarding the situation in ZIM. I recently forwarded some of this stuff to my PH in Harare who I will be hunting with in Chewore next year.

While he admits the situation is not good, there are certain areas that were and are as stable as they have ever been.

He also warns that some of the biggest MISINFORMATION is coming from operators in RSA who are trying to scare people out of ZIM and into RSA.

Frankly, business is business, and everyone is just trying to make the best of a bad situation and feed their families and live the life they've been living, regardless of where they are.

The land grabs and corruption are terrible and unfortunate, but frankly has been happening for centuries, only the players keep changing. That's life in Africa, and I don't expect it to change any time soon.

Go with a reputable company, check their references and check them often.
 
Posts: 1123 | Location: California | Registered: 03 January 2002Reply With Quote
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You know, I have been looking into this issue for most of this season. I have traded info with several people and learned a lot in the process. Some of the info I have thrown out as bullshit, and other parts found to be true. I have not gone around pointing fingers at individuals. Frist unless you are there personally it is second hand or circumnstantial at best. That dosnt mean I dont believe a lot of it and have verified what I can from several different sources. There is a lot more going on here than most realize. You would be amazed at the names that come up as being involved. People who have good reputations normally. If you take the time and put the effort into this the truth will come out. What I will say is verify everything you can from independent sources. You will not always be able to tell the difference between what is legit and what isnt. Things are pretty murkey out there and the truth dosnt always come shining through. Regardless of what you do or dont believe you should be willing to research the issue before taking a stand. After that then decide on reason and as much factual info as you can glean. Making decisions based on emotion are not a good idea. I challenge all of you who are interested to do this. If we dont agree or reach the same conclusions at that point that is fine.
 
Posts: 4106 | Location: USA | Registered: 06 March 2002Reply With Quote
<lb404>
posted
NitroX, A lease, given to an operator, that is stolen land from a legitimate owner is NOT a legitimate lease. It is selling stolen property. Calling it anything else is delusional. Again I don't want to be confrontational but stealing is stealing in whatever guise it is cloaked in.
 
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