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quote:I concur. I'm not trying to excuse the Osama Bin Laden of Africa. Quite the reverse. My personal feelings are they should be tried for murder, rape, etc. The list is long. Then shot. The situation doesn't really lend itself to an easy solution. By failing to support the decent people in Zim, you end up with nothing but scumbags present when Mugabe finally 'retires', or is retired. I don't think a boycott is really the answer, though it is tempting. I do think that as a government policy, no money should be sent to Africa, period, or, for that matter, outside the US, with the possible exception of Israel. But that's just me, when I see that the most important job in the world, education, starts pay at 36k a year, here. gs | |||
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Without regard to private property, All of the safari areas and communal land is if I correct here, managed by the state. That would infer that Mugabe has a hand in all leasing and operators. In the past he was just interested in money not the animals. It seems that he has added one more layer to the cake by giving the concessions to his friends. The bad side of this is if the game quotas are to high then everybody looses. This behavior is typical black african and has been the rule throughout history in africa where black africans have taken over. Name one country for me that has prospered after the whites were thrown out... Call me a racist if you must but facts are facts. When I visit africa its to hunt and I do so only if I can feel relatively safe in the political climate at the time. I do feel sorry for the resident whites for what choice do they have? You are not going to change anything by boycotting legitimate safari companys. | |||
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quote:To clarify what I wrote. A lease or a hunting concession on a proper safari area, commmunal land etc. Many of these outfitters have been operating on these areas well before the current BS started several years ago. I would think (or hope) the majority of the current outfitters still in business are relatively clean. Why should these outfitters be "punished" just because they do not own the land? Some no doubt will try to gain an advantage or get access to new areas or try to make fast bucks on questionable areas and properties. The posts on this thread show that pretty clearly and the same names keep coming up even if past clients don't want to believe it. Here's a good question to ask if you plan to hunt there. Ask the outfitter you are looking at: 1. How long have you had access to the property(ies) we will be hunting on? If it is less than a couple years then there will be big questions to ask. 2. Who are the owners of the properties that we will be hunting on? From a practical point of view, why would you want to hunt confiscated properties anyway. Poaching on them will be rife. Be straight up and tell them under no circumstances will you hunt on confiscated lands. Mickey When I refer to "friends" I mean friends still having properties and still having businesses. I know several farmers still there. [ 09-12-2003, 09:14: Message edited by: NitroX ] | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by lb404: lb404, Following your line of reasoning, re stolen property, would not the indigenous people of Zimbabwe/Southern Africa have the right to their land being restored to them? Or do you think there should be a time factor, ie after a certain time period, the land becomes legitimate. Surely your reasoning is no different to the ZanuPF stance on the land issue....ie stolen property only ceases to be stolen when it is restored to it's rightful owner. Now the question of rightful owner, is another matter !! DJ. | |||
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quote:If I'm not mistaken, Ghana has struggled with some poorly conceived projects and developments in the '70's and and poor economic conditions, but out produces most other African countires. They also have a fairly advanced industrial sector. Other than some debt, you don't hear a lot of problems coming from that country. Am I wrong? | |||
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How big are the buffalo in Ghana and what is their annual CITES quota for leopard? | |||
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Their buffalo and leopard quota are the same as their elephant quota. If you are trying to raise crops to feed your family wild animals are just another problem you have to deal with. Its up to those who cherish wildlife to make it economical for those who have it to preserve it. The bottom line is you cant use western european or US standards when trying to deal with third world countrys. All of africa is a third world country. | |||
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mamba....the point I was trying to make basically was it's hunting that generates the interest in Zimbabwe and it is the friends and acquaintances we've made thru hunting that sustain that interest. I wonder how many of us could point to Liberia or Somalia or even Libia on a map of Africa. | |||
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Bill That is very sad for your country if true. | |||
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Nitox, Sad but true. | |||
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Being an ex petrol geologist I actually know my geography pretty well. Ghana may stack up pretty well against other african countries but where does that leave it. One thing we all agree on is that most of us have made friends in Zim and we shouldnt abandon them especially now. The only chance the animals have is if decient safari operator takes over a govt concession. All the people I hunted with in both zambia and zim had their own poaching patrols. If an operator is not present in a safari area then poaching govt sanctioned or not then takes over. The people I have delt with also know when their game quotas are to high or to low and hunt accordingly. | |||
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I just thought that I would bring this back up so Ray could catch up on the topic that he missed while away hunting. Ray, you will note that all of this info came from reputable sources. | |||
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Gator1, What I notice is a witch hunt, an attack on some companies and folks that have been in the business for many years and have always had a fine reputation....Of people just like you and me who have hunted that area for many years and have all their funds tied up in camps and equipment...It reeks with democratic party ripeness, and is an insurection, likening to a lynch mob.... Until I know the facts, I will not make a judgement and certainly not from what I gleen on an internet forum by people that are talking out of their sphere of knowledge. this is a gossip colume IMO, and without fact or trial.... Furthermore, it is a very small segment of the country and the Safari industry in general, and has little effect on Zimbabwe as a whole as Zim is full of good safari companies that have not had any problems and have been in operation for years, yet this thread seems to want to include the whole country into what may or may not be fact.. Frankly Gato I find your approach and some others uninformed and sickening and harmfull to a lot of fine people....I have nothing more to say on this ridiculas subject, nor to those who spread gossip... | |||
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TTT | |||
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Mickey1, You <*@#*#*> idiot! ![[Mad]](images/icons/mad.gif){kind=icon} You better get your facts straight before you start accussing innocent people of illegal act's! Yes, I am a one of many booking agents for Out Of Africa. As far as I'm concerned they are one of the most sucessful and proffessional safari companies in the business today! Until hard facts and proof are provided, I will continue to represent them.I will not judge them on a bunch of bullshit and lies from jeoulos outfitter's that can't handle the competition! For everyone's information, here are the facts! I did hunt in Zimbabwe back in May near Beit Bridge and took a magnificent buff with my bow! This was my first trip to Zim, I have yet to send one of my client's to Zim and I have never been to the Gwaai Conservancy! So tell me you <*#^*^*> braniac, how have I illegaly operated in Zim? Where's your proof? Get your facts sraight ass hole before you start spreading lies and rumors over the internet! Don't ever mess with an honest man's lively hood! God Bless the U.S.A! Richard Putman Seminole Safari Adventures www.seminolesafari.com richardputman@zebra.net 1-251-946-2457 | |||
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quote:I guess that's how the Zim farmers who have had their land stolen and unscrupulous outfitters move in, feel too. But perhaps a tad more strongly. | |||
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Here we go again... Im with Ray on this one. | |||
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quote:Settle down Pancho, no body accused you of hunting in the Gwaai Conservancy. You are listed as a booking agent for Out of Africa Safaris and you proudly admit it. How does this lead to your post? I think that you should spend more of your time reading for content and less of it in throwing a temper tantrum. You might start by reading the source of the information and judging their credibility. Just to help you out I copied the part about Out of Africa and yourself. No point in overloading your brain about this. UNAUTHORIZED HUNTING/SAFARI OPERATORS, OPERATING IN THE GWAAI CONSERVANCY. Company: Out of Africa Safaris Owners: Dawie Groenwaldt Janeman Groenwaldt Glen Van Rensburg Nick Van Rensburg Zimbabwe connection/operator - E K Safaris (Ed Kadzombe) - Jacob Mudenda Professional Hunters: Albert Padarizi � ex National Parks Pilot Dawie Van Der Westhuizen (from Karoi) American Agent: Richard Putman from Seminole, Alabama Website: www.seminolesafaris.com Vehicle numbers: DDM850N MWF519N Reported to be hunting on Goodluck Farm. If you feel that The World Wildlife Fund, The Commercial Farmers Union, The Zimbabwe Professional Hunters Association, The Zimbabwe Hunt Report etc etc. etc are all lying about this then state your case. Stick to the issue and pay attention. I would also add that their are other posts on this site that name Out of Africa in the same vein. Maybe your problem is with their actions, not mine. | |||
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There are a lot of good legitamate white safari companies in Zimbabwe that operate outside of Magabes rule,,,,Lets not get stupid with your lack of knowledge of that country and make them suffer for what a few are doing...they have kids to feed and homes to pay for and boycotting them would be more than criminal, check out your booking agent and your Safari Company then make a realistic decision based on fact not heresay...Going to another country is one alternative, but it may not be the best choice as Zimbabwe is still a meca of wildlife... I have no prejucices in this as I book in all the African countries but I would send a client to zimbabwe as fast as any other country if that was his wish, and he would get a excellent hunt, not be involved with Magabe or his associates and see a world of Buffalo, plainsgame, good elephant or whatever...There are still a lot of nice folks over there trying to live out this nightmare.... I may be forced to stop booking Zimbabwe at some point, but it will be after all is lost, and all will be lost if WE, as Americans turn our backs on the good folks of that country...Mores the shame on some of this bullshit.... | |||
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"Out of Africa" should be kicked out of Africa after what we saw this past week. I'll post the story on a freash thread tomarrow. | |||
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Out of Africa's new promotional Video on Zimbabwe makes interesting viewing, especially the openly illegal hunting at night on parks estate. The Zim PH is under investigation and the parks representitive suspended! And we only got the video yesterday. LV has a good poit - Keep out of Africa OUT of Africa. Have been collecting some good stories on their so called PH's which will publish with names, and more importantly, the photo's as soon as I can | |||
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They shot 2 buffalo cows accidently blaiming the client when they showed up at our camp asking for premission to follow up the wounded one on our concesson. The client was no where to be seen we were told he was back at their camp drunk, we sent one of our trackers out with them to collect the wounded cow. When they returned the PH was bragging about staying in lion blinds all night long, which is illegal in Matetsi. Sadly our game scout didnt care at all, I think they have National parks on the payroll. Truely a sad situation, they will destroy Zimbabwe under the PH licences "given" to indigenous blacks whos licences they operate under. [ 11-06-2003, 17:33: Message edited by: LV Eric ] | |||
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