Are ANY PH covered by his insurance for this contingency?

Personaly I would go home and try my best to go back to work. If I wasn't capable of doing the same profession then I would re-train or educate myself into another field so I could provide for my family.
Our soldiers do it every day.

Trophy fee only hunt the following year.

I have personal insurance that would cover this. My insurance would cover the medical costs as well as loss of income.

I wouldn't count on any safari company having coverage.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Are ANY PH covered by his insurance for this contingency?

It depends on the situation (negligence on the PH's part) and the actual policy but I would say yes, many PH's would be covered.

It is still a good idea for clients to get their own annual coverage and spread the risk. Coverage for anything that can go wrong with such travel.

That said - statistically the chance of being shot by a PH is very close to zero - more chance of being bitten by a shark at the beach or hit by a bus in the city.

That happened in Alaska about 10 years ago on a bear hunt. The client died instantly after being shot in the head by an assistant to a Master Guide. Never read anything in regards to litigation or insurance.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I have personal insurance that would cover this. My insurance would cover the medical costs as well as loss of income.

I wouldn't count on any safari company having coverage.

+1, it is funny, instead of a discussion about personal responsibility we want to discuss which other person should be responsible.

I have said before, in my opinion, it is irresponsible for anyone to depend on another person, another person's insurance company, the goodwill of others, etc. to make a situation right. You owe it to yourself and your family to take the steps to protect yourself in the first instance since that is all you can control, you cannot control who causes you harm. Stu and his employer cannot be overlooked in the blame game for not having taken precautions to protect themselves and their employees. Last time this issue came up, the defense was, "oh, but the insurance is unavailable or too expensive." Then I say either quit or do not complain and expect others to pull you out of a ditch if and when the stuff hits the fan. Better yet, get one of those professional associations that seem to not do a whole heck of a lot to work on coming up with some type of group package for members.

He'd get no tip from me! :-)

Stu did have insurance for this type of event. However, it only covered events in Zimbabwe.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:
That happened in Alaska about 10 years ago on a bear hunt. The client died instantly after being shot in the head by an assistant to a Master Guide. Never read anything in regards to litigation or insurance.

Yes it has happened in Africa a couple times in recent history - but it is still so rare. All firearms accidents are relatively rare - because the regular users tend to take some care and guns dont go off byy themselves, someone has to pull the trigger and the gun be pointing at someone to get an injury.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Stu did have insurance for this type of event. However, it only covered events in Zimbabwe.

That pesky little notion of personal responsibility rears its ugly head again . . . then shame on him for not doing his part. Even worse actually. He knew better and apparently through either ignorance or neglect, failed to do what was necessary.

Saeed, I have a personal accident policy that will cover me in case of an accident, on top of that I have medical cover from and international company that is very reliable and will pay major medical expenses.
It does not however come cheap, but neither does my life or my abilities as a PH.
Mart

As an outfitter in montana i carrry 3 million dollars in liabilty coverage. I also am not hunting anything that might eat or stomp one of my clients so i dont carry a rifle but instead a handgun holstered. I do worry about hunters following me with a loaded rifle as i see how some of them care for and handle them. As part of renewing my license i have to shpw proof that this policy is current and paid for in full.

quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Huffaker:
Personaly I would go home and try my best to go back to work. If I wasn't capable of doing the same profession then I would re-train or educate myself into another field so I could provide for my family.
Our soldiers do it every day.

You've obviously never sustained a traumatic/life changing injury or dealt with many people that have.

Our soldiers don't "do it every day." Countless numbers of vets sustain horrific injuries and struggle to deal with them, usually with a great deal of assistance from the V.A. and other organizations that are set up to deal with the consequences of their placing themselves in harm's way for our benefit. We (the citizens who support them) provide the equivalent of insurance through our tax dollars, but even with those vast resources, many vets are simply unable to "retrain or reequip" themselves for the task. When that happens, we owe them much more than shrugging off their situations and suggesting that, 'they're on their own now.'

Obviously anyone getting shot while engaging in our sport is in a much different situation than a soldier placing him/herself in jeopardy for the good of a nation. That said, to suggest that injuries of the kind we're discussing can be overcome with relative ease, really fails to recognize the consequences of such an accident.

quote:

Originally posted by martin pieters:
Saeed, I have a personal accident policy that will cover me in case of an accident, on top of that I have medical cover from and international company that is very reliable and will pay major medical expenses.
It does not however come cheap, but neither does my life or my abilities as a PH.
Mart

Martin - does your firm require clients to waive all liability as dangerous game hunting is a dangerous activity and client will not hold outfitter liable? All my african hunting contracts to date have had that clause. I always that it was the standard default clause.

Thanks,

Mike

We have an indemnity form that every client signs

We also have an indemnity , and also a public liability insurance for the company that covers accidents .
I also have a personal life insurance that covers disability.

Hope to God I never need it

quote:

Originally posted by martin pieters:
We have an indemnity form that every client signs

Maybe clients ought to start insisting that outfitters sign indemnities and release forms. What is good for the goose is good for the gander? Why should outfitters be exonerated for their negligence and not the client?

I refused to sign one in the Yukon as it was overly broad. They questioned why. The following sets forth some of my objections as I recall:

1- If they conducted the "hunt" in parking lot of the hotel in town, I had no recourse.

2- If their guide intentionally pushed me off the mountain, I had no recourse.

3- If their guide intentionally shot me, I had no recourse.

4- If the guide was drunk the entire time and conducted the hunt in an unacceptable manner, I had no recourse.

5- I would have no recourse over ANYTHING UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE.

I am not the suing type but this was WAY too broad.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Stu did have insurance for this type of event. However, it only covered events in Zimbabwe.

Exactly - he didn't have any insurance for this event.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I refused to sign one in the Yukon as it was overly broad. They questioned why. The following sets forth some of my objections as I recall:

1- If they conducted the "hunt" in parking lot of the hotel in town, I had no recourse.

2- If their guide intentionally pushed me off the mountain, I had no recourse.

3- If their guide intentionally shot me, I had no recourse.

4- If the guide was drunk the entire time and conducted the hunt in an unacceptable manner, I had no recourse.

5- I would have no recourse over ANYTHING UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE.

I am not the suing type but this was WAY too broad.

A few years back, my group refused to sign a 20+ page contract from Adam Clement's company that had some ridiculous provisions .... Of course all of the defense and indemnity obligations were wholly one-sided in favor of the company, etc. No thanks.

FWIW,whilst many safari companies do require the client to sign an indemnity they more often than not cover things such as vehicle breakdown & bad weather etc rather than shooting someone or getting shot & it's usually VERY hard (to say nothing of VERY expensive) for someone in the safari industry to get appropriate insurance for such events.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
FWIW,whilst many safari companies do require the client to sign an indemnity they more often than not cover things such as vehicle breakdown & bad weather etc rather than shooting someone or getting shot & it's usually VERY hard (to say nothing of VERY expensive) to get appropriate insurance for such events.

Thank you Steve!

The safari agreements I have seen are so lopsided in favour of the outfitters that I refuse to enter into them.

The only one I remember ever signing was for TGT, and the only reason I signed it is because I was hunting with Alan Vincent as my PH.

If he wasn't employed by TGT at that time, I would have thrown that agreement out of the window and gone hunting with someone else.

None of the other outfitters I have hunted with required me to sign an agreement at all.

And to suggest that PHs have insurance to cover them shooting their client by accident, well, your guess as good as mine.

We had this very same discussion a while back, and it was made absolutely clear that it was close to impossible to get such insurance cover.

Would those who do have such insurance please tell us with whom they are insured?

And detail what such insurance covers?

And what is the premium paid?

Saeed

It is pretty much impossible to get & what little is available is not only prohibitively expensive but so full of exclusions is pretty much useless anyway.

I wonder if AR has anyone in the insurance business that could comment?

It's unfortunate that indemnities are required but some clients can sometimes be ridiculously complaining....... I've even had them whining & trying to hold me responsible because the rain came early, or the ice melted by midday in the SGR & even one fidiot complaining the sun was burning his knees!

Like I can do anything about such things!

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Saeed

It is pretty much impossible to get & what little is available is not only prohibitively expensive but so full of exclusions is pretty much useless anyway.

I wonder if AR has anyone in the insurance business that could comment?

I think that is just an excuse. Martin said above he has such insurance. Sounds like Stu had such insurance, albeit for the wrong country. In the world of insurance, insurance products are always available for those that are responsible enough to purchase it and place a priority on having it, for others they have made an economic decision to forego coverage and self insure in preference to other priorities. That being the case, don't be crying when nut cutting time comes.

I agree.

Saeed, to answer your question more fully, this is simply liability insurance. It is available worldwide.

In the USA, for a company, it would be Commercial General Liability Insurance; for an individual, Personal Liability Insurance. It can be supplemented by Excess or Umbrella Liability Insurance. Coverage limits can generally be as high as one is willing to pay for, although at the very highest levels, it can get quite expensive.

In the USA, a standard Homeowner's Insurance policy includes liability coverage for the insured homeowner.

In general terms, liability insurance covers the insured party against claims brought by a third party that are based on the insured party's negligent (but not wrongful/unlawful) acts or omissions.

Prudent people carry such insurance.

There is also medical insurance, of course, including long term disability insurance, and that is likewise prudent to carry.

But as Mike Jines says above, it is not prudent to rely on a third party's liability insurance to cover your medical expenses, or to cover lost earnings and other damages, in case you are injured by such third party.

There are too many uninsured people walking around; so the lesson is that one must get his own insurance.

Just to beat a dead horse completely to a pulp. In the Stu accident, Stu should have had insurance, Jumbo Moore should have had insurance and Tim should have had insurance. Sounds like at least two did, although one had insurance that did not provide coverage in the country in which the accident occurred. If any one of them did not have insurance, bad on them. If any one of them had insurance but did not have coverage, bad on them. Your first line of defense in any disaster is your insurance. If you elect not to carry insurance then you are effectively saying I have enough money to protect myself and my family without the need for insurance, or more likely, I am choosing to spend my money elsewhere and take the risk.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Saeed

It is pretty much impossible to get & what little is available is not only prohibitively expensive but so full of exclusions is pretty much useless anyway.

I wonder if AR has anyone in the insurance business that could comment?

I think that is just an excuse. Martin said above he has such insurance. Sounds like Stu had such insurance, albeit for the wrong country. In the world of insurance, insurance products are always available for those that are responsible enough to purchase it and place a priority on having it, for others they have made an economic decision to forego coverage and self insure in preference to other priorities. That being the case, don't be crying when nut cutting time comes.

Mike

Firstly: Why TF would I be making excuses for anyone or anything?

And secondly, If you or anyone else thinks it's so easy to obtain appropriate cover perhaps you/they can give us an example of such cover & premium & confirm it's available to someone resident in Africa & working as a PH?

It may well be available & affordable for a hunter going on a safari of X number of weeks per year but I think you'll find long term cover for PHs etc (at affordable cost) is almost as rare as rocking horse doo-doos.

Let's also remember that cost would in effect have to be passed onto the costs for each safari (assuming availability) & it was only very recently a lot of people here were complaining about rising costs of hunting safaris.

Of course, we might be talking at cross purposes. I'm addressing the original question of "What Happens If Your PH Shoots You By Accident?" & you might be talking about private/personal medical cover?

Mike- I'm with you, I love how they want to pass all liability off to the hunter. If you want me to sign one of those, you better have a copy with blanks to put my name into as well.

This is a dangerous hobby we have, you shoot someone, you can expect to get your life tossed upside down. Accidents happen, but someone always has to pay! And taking up donations is interesting, I personally don't feel responsible and don't contribute to funding those type of events. If I was a personal friend of either party, and convicted to do so, I would...but in these cases I haven't been, I spend my charitable dollars in other arenas.

I don't see how people can think that being a PH is a holy position on this planet...it's a job. They are people and have needs...STU wants his pound of flesh paid in cash...and I think we all would especially if someone shot us on purpose or by accident. Someone takes away your livelihood, and you're not going to take legal action...come on???

It is ironic how this situation is developing, but the money has been given, it's his to use how he deems will best benefit him and his family. It's not a matter of being right or wrong, that falls back to the Ethics questions argued about on this website all the time.

As far as insurance goes, I would love to try and collect on a Zim policy...but again, his fault for working where he's not covered. All parties in this are responsible, and the courts will ultimately decide legal responsibility.

What happens if your PH shoots you by accident?

Being ‘personally responsible’ is a virtue, but if the issue is the injury or death of a client caused by gross negligence at the hands of a PH (however rare that might be) absolving the PH of financial responsibility is stupid – whether or not he’s insured.

As an example, the drunk driver who puts me in the hospital and out of work is the first person I am going to punish by holding them financially responsible – whether or not they have insurance. If that makes me party to the ‘blame game’, so be it. That said, holding others responsible for their grossly negligent acts does not mean that you overlook personal contingencies like umbrella insurance policies and other risk management tools. If the PH (or drunk driver) is uninsured and insolvent, it is indeed irresponsible to expect that some uninvolved third party should come to your financial rescue.

So, what should happen if a PH injures or kills his client through careless disregard for safety or life? The same as should happen to a client under the same circumstances: They should be held to account for not only the financial cost to the victim (damages) but punitive damages, as well. For those not motivated by simple ethics, it is precisely the risk of such financial consequence that serves to protect hunters (and PHs) from reckless behavior that could otherwise devastate their lives and that of their families.

Going on safari does - and should - involve a measure of risk; that's part of the appeal. It takes us out of our overly-protected everyday lives and allows us to venture into a primitive environment where guns, beasts, bugs, and environment infuse a bit of danger into our humdrum existence. That's fine. Regrettably, accidents will happen. People will get hurt and even killed. As safari hunters, we accept that as part of the price we pay to enjoy our sport.

What's not fine is having to accept preventable, foreseeable, and recklessly dangerous behavior by others as being without accountability or consequence.

Now, what happens if your PH shoots you on purpose?

Kim-
Very well put, as usual.
I carry medical, life, disability, and long term care insurance. I have covered every exposure I can think of. Of course, I've missed something.
If I am harmed or killed through someone's negligence, my assumption would be that my insurance covers me, and the insurance company has the option of going after the negligent party to cover their loss.
Am I being simple minded?

No you aren't being too simple. That is exactly how it works. The recovery from the carrier for the other party is called subrogation.

I've not heard that word before, thank you. My guess is that properly pronounced, it sounds like cash registers ringing to lawyers.

Lawyers are indeed often involved in subrogation cases.

Biebs is right-do not tip your ph if he shoots you.
As an insurance professional, the posts are interesting and useful. Especially Mjines perspective and Marty's observation regarding subrogation. Just hunt and let the insurance companies sort it all out. Of course, one must have insurance for this to apply.
But Biebs is right-and funny.

Tom

quote:

Originally posted by KPete:

What happens if your PH shoots you by accident?


Now, what happens if your PH shoots you on purpose?

NORMALLY ???? ..... WE DIE !

I've read lots of hot air here and chest beating going on here. "Well just get insurance that covers you in a foreign country which provides liability and disability coverage for you and everybody around you"!! Please provide some examples of companies that provide that coverage and what the exclusions in those policies are.

As far as simply retaining yourself after a severe injury, maybe you can maybe you can't that was pretty ridiculous statement, as it really depends on what your injury is and how significant the damage was.

surestrike, I'm not sure why you seem to be so perturbed.

This insurance can be bought on the open market.

BTW, my PH is gonna shoot me? To paraphrase Mr. White, if my PH shoots me in a dream, he better wake up and apologize.

I guess it wouldn't be considered an accident if by chance, the PH really pissed off the client, then the client "accidently" takes a shot at the PH, but misses (not enough practice), and the PH returns fire and doesn't miss. From what I've seen of many people's gun handling skills, the PH is in much more danger of being shot by some idiot than the other way around.

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:
I've read lots of hot air here and chest beating going on here. "Well just get insurance that covers you in a foreign country which provides liability and disability coverage for you and everybody around you"!! Please provide some examples of companies that provide that coverage and what the exclusions in those policies are.

As far as simply retaining yourself after a severe injury, maybe you can maybe you can't that was pretty ridiculous statement, as it really depends on what your injury is and how significant the damage was.

Generally, basic general liability coverage does the trick.