quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
surestrike, I'm not sure why you seem to be so perturbed.

This insurance can be bought on the open market.

Michael,

So just to be sure, what exact coverage would one buy and through what company on the open market would you buy it from that addresses all the variables we've mentioned here?

I want a policy that covers me at full remuneration for lost wages for life, (long term disability), That covers anybody I accidentally injure for the same in the country or countries of my choosing. (International personal liability.) That has no exclusions for firearms risky activity or (especially) small airplanes and covers the medical expenses of the foreign citizen that I accidentally injured.

It seems to me that the company or the PH if he is independent should very well be providing their own long term disability and medical coverage.

Not perturbed really but I would like some names of insurance companies on the open market that provide this coverage. Loyd's of London is probably one that comes to mind. However having been a polar expedition support pilot and an aerial firefighting pilot I can assure you that even Loyd's will not provide life insurance or LTD for those ventures at rates which do not exceed your annual earnings by a wide margin.

I am skeptical that the policy with the features I've mentioned truly exists and is easily found on the open market at a rate that makes it feasible for the average or even not so average hunter.

This is the problem with the 'insurance envelope'. If you buy insurance to cover every risk, then you will not have money left to purchase a hunt. At least, if you are in my tax bracket. Guess, you have to be very selective on who you choose to hunt with.

Guys

There are two sides of the coin being discussed/confused here so let's try to correct that by separating the two different issues.

The original question was; "What Happens If Your PH Shoots You By Accident?"

The answer to that is it'll depend on who your PH is but I can assure you, it's very difficult indeed (read virtually impossible) for a PH who is resident in Africa to get any policy that effectively and affordably covers him for such events...... This is part of the reason that indemnities are so commonly used...... If indemnities did not exist another question might be what happens if I get beaten up by a big n ugly & the PH fails to prevent it, can I sue him? - Which of course would open a whole new can of worms!

The second question is 'what happens if an overseas hunting client accidentally shoots a PH or anyone else for that matter?'

The answer to that (latter) question is there are policies available to cover that in at least some western/Euro countries.

For example, the BASC (British Association of Shooting & Conservation) in the UK offer a policy that (IIRC) either has worldwide cover or can be extended to worldwide cover & this used to be and probably still is included (FOC) in the membership fee.

I also have a vague idea that SCI used to offer a similar policy to it's members at extra charge but could be wrong on that.

FWIW, all kinds of shooting accidents can happen but the most common by far are the client shooting a third party which I guess is part of the reason why policies are more easily available for clients than PHs...... I remember a case about 10 or 12 years ago when a German client at Dar es Salaam airport was asked if his .375 was unloaded & the bloody fool pulled the trigger instead of opening the bolt.

Needless to say, it was loaded and a Tanzanian lady ended up with a round passing through both knees. The German hunter was slapped in jail and only let out when he'd lodged (IIRC) US$10K with the Govt to cover the medical costs........ whether she ever saw any of that money is a different matter!

THIS & THIS might be of interest to some.

To reply to the original question. If your lucky, you live.

Dave

In addition to not tipping my PH if he shot me I think I'd be entitled to at least charge him a trophy fee for me (Hopefully for wounded rather than in the salt).

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:
I've read lots of hot air here and chest beating going on here. "Well just get insurance that covers you in a foreign country which provides liability and disability coverage for you and everybody around you"!! Please provide some examples of companies that provide that coverage and what the exclusions in those policies are.

As far as simply retaining yourself after a severe injury, maybe you can maybe you can't that was pretty ridiculous statement, as it really depends on what your injury is and how significant the damage was.

My personal general liability policy including the overlying umbrella policy provides coverage should I CAUSE an injury anywhere in the world. My company is Fireman's Fund. Of course, these policies have limits. It would cover situations like the Tim/Stu situation up to the policy limit.

It is a different story if I am hurt. I buy a special health policy to provide coverage should I get sick or injured. I have forgotten the name of company. As I recall, the policy limits are $2,000,000. I have disability income ( Mutual of new York)policy that will pay a certain amount per month to age 65. In addition I have multiple life insurance policies with Met Life.

It is highly unlikely if you are injured that one policy will cover everything. Please note that other than the special health policy, I bought these for reasons other than hunting . However, the policies would cover hunting related matters as well.

surestrike, what you describe can be had, subject to monetary limits of liability. I use three or four insurance companies. A good insurance broker or agent is good to have as a resource.

The agent for my life/disability insurer came to my office once, during a Q&A visit to my firm.

I have two Cape buffalo head and shoulder mounts on my office wall and a zebra rug on the floor.

I asked the agent about my insurance coverages, limits and any exclusions.

I said, "No exclusions, right?"

He said, as he looked at the buff, "No, none."

I said, "Not even if one of these buffalo turns the tables one day, and hooks and kills me?"

He said, "Not even for that."

He added, "Your policy pays in full, even for suicide!"

Michael:
Just as a precaution I would READ the policy to insure that your agent is correct. I would NEVER take their word for anything.

I read policies for a living and end up suing these companies many times for their denial of coverage (breach of contract and vexatious refusal to pay) and/or attempts to avoid coverage of the individual once a claim is made. I am doing both during my Christmas holiday and would rather be relaxing. Relying on an agents word is not worth the possibility that he is wrong.

Most agents are honest and capable of giving correct information. However, my clients have been exposed to potential loss of between six and seven figures due to an agent's fraudulent and negligent acts as well as denial of coverage in another action.

Worth reading the policy. Ounce of prevention. Just my 2 cents.


Dutch

quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Huffaker:
Personaly I would go home and try my best to go back to work. If I wasn't capable of doing the same profession then I would re-train or educate myself into another field so I could provide for my family.
Our soldiers do it every day.

+1 Good post!

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I have personal insurance that would cover this. My insurance would cover the medical costs as well as loss of income.

I wouldn't count on any safari company having coverage.

+1, it is funny, instead of a discussion about personal responsibility we want to discuss which other person should be responsible.

I have said before, in my opinion, it is irresponsible for anyone to depend on another person, another person's insurance company, the goodwill of others, etc. to make a situation right. You owe it to yourself and your family to take the steps to protect yourself in the first instance since that is all you can control, you cannot control who causes you harm. Stu and his employer cannot be overlooked in the blame game for not having taken precautions to protect themselves and their employees. Last time this issue came up, the defense was, "oh, but the insurance is unavailable or too expensive." Then I say either quit or do not complain and expect others to pull you out of a ditch if and when the stuff hits the fan. Better yet, get one of those professional associations that seem to not do a whole heck of a lot to work on coming up with some type of group package for members.

Great post Mike! Agree wholeheartedly!

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Stu did have insurance for this type of event. However, it only covered events in Zimbabwe.

Kind of stupid since he has not hunted Zim in years.

Within just a few days of Stu being shot, I called my insurance agent to see if I was covered for such an incident, whether in the USA or abroad. He informed me that my homeowners policy did in fact cover me up to half a million.
I had him increase my liability up to 1 million.
As for if my ph shoots me, I guess I need to call him & check on that as well.

The big question is how do you tip?

I mean, if you are still alive, should you tip based on the fact he didn't kill you?

Or not tip since he did shoot you?

And what about camp staff?

And finally, do you get that day's daily fee back and the rest of your unused days? Or should you just settle for a credit for a trophy fee only trip next year for you (or your able bodied designee)?

quote:

Originally posted by Duckear:
The big question is how do you tip?

I mean, if you are still alive, should you tip based on the fact he didn't kill you?

Or not tip since he did shoot you?

The tip is: Don't shoot your client if you want a tip.

Is this Never Never Safaris ?

Never go out on Safari with us, because if you do, you will Never come back !

I would insist that the PH pay the trophy fee on the client. Also if he borrowed the clients rifle it would have to be returned in acceptable condition, no rust or bent barrels. The PH is also responsible for lost or wounded clients.

Forgot to add that the second client or observer is twice the trophy fee.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:

quote:

Originally posted by Marty:
Kim-
Very well put, as usual.
I carry medical, life, disability, and long term care insurance. I have covered every exposure I can think of. Of course, I've missed something.
If I am harmed or killed through someone's negligence, my assumption would be that my insurance covers me, and the insurance company has the option of going after the negligent party to cover their loss.
Am I being simple minded?

No you aren't being too simple. That is exactly how it works. The recovery from the carrier for the other party is called subrogation.

What Marty has stated above is exactly what I stated in a previous thread a couple days ago,
but 'SureStrike' in his ignorance,foolishly assumed that I didn't know what I was talking about.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax: posted 27 December 2013 03:43

2. Stu taylor did not take the responsibility to have insurance to cover himself for such an unforeseen incident.
If Stu had insurance, his insurance Co. would bear the cost of medical and cost of [potential] impending claim against Herald.

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:
... I would like some names of insurance companies on the open market that provide this coverage. Loyd's of London is probably one that comes to mind.
However having been a polar expedition support pilot and an aerial firefighting pilot I can assure you that even Loyd's will not provide life insurance or LTD for those ventures at rates which do not exceed your annual earnings by a wide margin.

If I go to fly for a reputable well established aviation company, be it flying out to oil rigs or water bombing fires,
they will have me endorsed on the company insurance policy to include me as the 'insured'.

It would be ridiculous to expect an ordinary pilot to take out his own insurance to cover any damage/loss he may cause to persons or property,
[company or otherwise], in the course of flying for the aviation company.

If ones decides to fly for a company that cannot afford to include the pilot on the company operations insurance policy,
or the Co. is simply unwilling to extend cover to its pilot employees whilst flying for the company,
then one seriously needs to question why they would still want to work for such an operation.

If established aviation service providers like Bristow,,CHC,Loyds,Bond,PHI, etc ...asked their pilots to provide their own insurance
before being permitted to fly any of the companies multi-million dollar aircraft, they would never get off the ground.

Has it ever happened?

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
FWIW,whilst many safari companies do require the client to sign an indemnity they more often than not cover things such as vehicle breakdown & bad weather etc rather than shooting someone or getting shot & it's usually VERY hard (to say nothing of VERY expensive) for someone in the safari industry to get appropriate insurance for such events.

Just say its not a shooting injury,bad weather or missed flights,
but say the employee/driver of the safari vehicle shows gross negligence in his actions behind the wheel,
causing an accident resulting in serious injury to client, or/..
the cause of the accident was because the vehicle was not kept in good proper repair?

are such included in the indemnity?

I wonder how much water those indemnity agreements really hold.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
Just say its not a shooting injury,bad weather or missed flights,
but say the employee/driver of the safari vehicle shows gross neglegence in his actions behind the wheel,
causing an accident resulting in serious injury to client, or/..
the cause of the accident was because the vehicle was not kept in good proper repair?

are such included in the indemnity?

I wonder how much water those indemnity agreements really hold.

The obvious answer is that will depend on the wording of the individual indemnity, the nature of the individual incident and the country in which the case might be heard.

Hunting is a dangerous occupation in many ways so there are no firm answers.

For example how many of you guys out there have ridden on the back of a hunting truck at night and how many of you have worn eye protection to do it?

All it takes is an unseen/overhanging twig to clout someone in the eye & they've possibly lost their sight in it.

quote:

All it takes is an unseen/overhanging twig to clout someone in the eye & they've possibly lost their sight in it.

A very dear friend and well known PH (back then) lost his life from such an accident.

Trax:

IMHO I think it is far safer playing PH than being a pilot flying in abnormal situations.
In both professions it could be "just a question of time" before the shit hits the fan, but I would rather chance my luck with both feet on the ground and a double rifle in my hands.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

All it takes is an unseen/overhanging twig to clout someone in the eye & they've possibly lost their sight in it.

A very dear friend and well known PH (back then) lost his life from such an accident.

I can't remember the names but seem to recall one PH killed (probably) about 5 years ago & another about 5 years before that by overhanging branches...... Also a one eyed Masai tracker that used to track for me sometimes (in Irikishibor) lost the sight in his one good eye the same way about 7 years ago.

I seem to recall Jeff Rann getting a stick in the eye in Botswana.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
Trax:

IMHO I think it is far safer playing PH than being a pilot flying in abnormal situations.
In both professions it could be "just a question of time" before the shit hits the fan, but I would rather chance my luck with both feet on the ground and a double rifle in my hands.

If I am flying commercially, the guy beside me [my co-pilot] or the crew of other commercially operating aircraft
that are also servicing an oil platform out at sea, or firebombing the same fire ,
are all trained and skilled professionals that meet certain requirements,
and by law are not permitted to fly without such proven/certified record and skill.
and such mandatory requirements are set and demanded by a number of things:

- Gov regulation
- Aviation Company preferred standards
- mandatory requirements for insurance.

However any dick or fool who can afford a big bore and a DG hunt, is permitted in the field.
There are no legal requirements to meet a minimum std of shooter/hunter skill and proficiency
whilst carrying a rifle in the field, around other people and property.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:

However any dick or fool who can afford a big bore and a DG hunt, is permitted in the field.
There are no legal requirements to meet a minimum std of shooter/hunter skill and proficiency
whilst carrying a rifle in the field, around other people and property.

This being true, I think you'd be wise to stay home Trax.

Leave us Dicks and Fools to the amateur hunting fields, you can conquer the cyber hunts.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
Trax:

IMHO I think it is far safer playing PH than being a pilot flying in abnormal situations.
In both professions it could be "just a question of time" before the shit hits the fan, but I would rather chance my luck with both feet on the ground and a double rifle in my hands.

If I am flying commercially, the guy beside me [my co-pilot] or the crew of other commercially operating aircraft
that are also servicing an oil platform out at sea, or firebombing the same fire ,
are all trained and skilled professionals that meet certain requirements,
and by law are not permitted to fly without such proven/certified record and skill.
and such mandatory requirements are set and demanded by a number of things:

- Gov regulation
- Aviation Company preferred standards
- mandatory requirements for insurance.

However any dick or fool who can afford a big bore and a DG hunt, is permitted in the field.
There are no legal requirements to meet a minimum std of shooter/hunter skill and proficiency
whilst carrying a rifle in the field, around other people and property.

All that flies out the window the minute things go to heck and Mr. Murphy makes his appearance on the scene . When you plow in to that 34F water and 60 foot seas in the North Sea in February, or when a blowout is really on, you won't much care about all the standards .

Point is that things happen. This is one that is less likely to happen. But like most problems, it is a real problem if and when it does occur. But overall you are safer than driving in Houston, or riding a bicycle, so I don't worry about it any.

You can bet, and I guarantee, that if I had the idea that my PH was unsafe, or that I was going to get shot by him, then I would already have been gone. Most especially, as I like a lot of us, probably have my family with me.

If I mess up professionally, and then a Hydril or BOP stack doesn't hold, at least my family doesn't have to watch it. For that matter, I always feel safer stepping off on the rigs than I do in the airplane or chopper . There is a lot more folks involved than just pilots in flying those birds. Because then I am in control when I get there . It is mostly the same hunting .

Guys used to ask me " What happens if you get hurt in that race car ?" Like what - I will just have to handle that . " What if you get killed ?" Well that WILL indeed be bad, but I probably won't much care at that point . My wife and the company and the insurance company will just have to sort it all out. But it aint happening . I did get hurt once though. Hey it just happens . Falls kill and injure more hunters than anything in the field. Being shot by a PH is a LONG way down that list in my estimation.

But these kind of subjects make good non-outdoor winter exchanges.

But if it does happen, they darn sure aren't getting any tips on that hunt. Or my binoculars or guns . My first couple of times hunting the PHs got off with my expensive binoculars LOL . But I didn't get shot.