Flipped on the TV while eating lunch and watched the last bit of Christenson Outdoors. It was a show on some teenage girls quest for the big five. I missed her taking the lion and leopard but did get to see her squeal when she darted a rhino with, you guessed it, Tam Safaris (probably where she also shot her very well maned lion on a "great one day hunt"). Anyway she then proceeded to hunt elephant. When she was setting up for the shot, you could here the PH say, shoot for the lazer, can you see the lazer, and there clear as day was a green lazer dot bouncing around on the forehead of the ele. She made a good shot and it was over.

I have never heard of anything like that being done before and it sure turned me off. I know that many will rag on me for this but it sure seemed to cheapen the whole experience. She was thrilled with her accomplishments and they then showed her getting some youth hunter award at an SCI awards banquet for taking the big 5.

I have grown up reading the classics and maybe I'm just old fashioned but it seems to me that there is still a "right way" to do some things. And all trophies really need to be earned to be fully appreciated.

I would love to hunt rhino but I sure don't think that shooting one with a dart gun "for scientific purposes" is hunting. If you just want to go up to one and kick it in the ass for fun and excitement go ahead but don't try to qualify it as hunting just to satisfy an ego. Just a guess but I am betting that some of those Tam rhinos have been injected so many times that they are starting to scar up and look like old hypes. I also figure that if I have not studied enough to know where to shoot an animal I probably shouldn't be out there in the first place, I sure don't need my ph to mark the spot with a laser.


Oh well, enough of my rant, blast away.......

Is anyone doing paintball safaris? That could get interesting...

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Scott:
Is anyone doing paintball safaris? That could get interesting...

I have always thought that could be very exciting, challenging, dangerous and affordable!

I believe darting rhino in RSA is now illegal as a "hunting" pursuit. But I would surmise darting a rhino is a much more precarious predicament than actually shooting one unless you really screw it up. As far as a lazer light indicating the aim point, well.... I could argue either side with equal enthusiasm. Where do you draw the line at real hunting. Rocks, sharp sticks, iron sights, scopes, illuminated reticles?????

Lets face it, the real experiences such as those of Foa, Selous, Hunter, Roosevelt are long gone. It's land rovers, air planes, plush camps, cell phones, Global Rescue. I doubt many of us, myself included, would or could withstand the rigors of a 3 month foot safari in truly primative areas.

quote:

Originally posted by MMS:
Where do you draw the line at real hunting. Rocks, sharp sticks, iron sights, scopes, illuminated reticles?????

Lets face it, the real experiences such as those of Foa, Selous, Hunter, Roosevelt are long gone. It's land rovers, air planes, plush camps, cell phones, Global Rescue. I doubt many of us, myself included, would or could withstand the rigors of a 3 month foot safari in truly primative areas.

I understand your point, it just seems that more and more "stuff" is encroaching and it just doesn't sit well with me anymore. We may use a lot of technology getting there but the final act of taking a magnificent animal should in some way be a little more revered than lighting up his forehead with a green laser. To each his own I guess, but I still think it is a little bit sad!

I agree with your point about the laser, but darting a rhino is a hunt in my opinion. Just thinking about how close you have to get to that massive animal, then making a shot with a weapon you haven't really practiced with knowing full well that you're about to seriously piss the thing off. That's a challenge. Sounds like fun to me.

quote:

Originally posted by Sweet River:
I agree with your point about the laser, but darting a rhino is a hunt in my opinion. Just thinking about how close you have to get to that massive animal, then making a shot with a weapon you haven't really practiced with knowing full well that you're about to seriously piss the thing off. That's a challenge. Sounds like fun to me.

+!

I agree completely! I've shot Rhino and I've darted Rhino and there's no doubt in my mind that the darting the big guys is more challenging and more dangerous than shooting one.

At the very least, you have to consider that darting a Rhino involves getting within about 25 yards and then really pissing him off by sticking him with a long, heavy dart -- then dodging the PO'd Rhino for the 8-10 minutes it takes for the tranquilizer to take effect.

I love it! It's one of the most adrenaline inducing experiences I've ever had hunting -- and I've had lots and lots of exposure to dangerous game over the years. I'll miss the sport, that's for sure.

The only good news is that everything in Africa changes over time and darting Rhino will probably return before long.

Laser--NO!!! Night vision goggles--NO!!!! Illuminated scopes to cheat on Leopards--NO!!!
Darting a Rhino---yes.....only way I will ever be able to afford one so I am predjudiced!
I have been within 15 yds of both White and Black Rhino and have some great photos including one of the sky when I grabbed onto bakkie as we sped away from the Black's annoyance with us...I was crouched to jump when the white got up and started toward us but his lovely companion woke up and ran away and he followed....the bakkie was 200 yds away and the PH saying we are close enuff for the last 50 yds....when you are armed with the mighty camera and the closest firearm is a 100 yds away, one might get himself referred to as the stupid American....I forget the Afrikanner words....but it was said more than once! But I have some great 8x10's !!!
Now I shall wish to dart one for my 7th DG in 2013 as I will kill my Ele in 2012! It will be my 70th BD present to myself!

This may get some negative replies, but here goes. Some people have a great deal of money and they choose to lavish their kids with hunts that most of us cannot afford. If her family didn't have the change, she would be shooting squirrels. The fact that she got an award from SCI, just confrims that money talks.

http://www.christensenarms.com...h-full-episodes-2011


The entire episode is available on the Christensen Arms website.

Unfortunately things change. Some for better, some for worse. Hunting today for the most part is far to reliant on technology to be considered a a pure sport and fair chase to the animals. We all must draw a line where we determine the moral ethical boundary. Most of us would fall in a narrow band some where between hunting with a rock and a hellicopter gunship. (probably a lot closer to the gunship than we care to admit)

I love to hunt, Africa in particular. Spot and stalk and tracking are most enjoyable pursuits. Sitting in a hide or by a water hole, though necessary in some cases is a last resort particularly as a gun hunter. Were it possible to shoot and release I would enjoy it so much more. To me, the actual killing of the animal causes me much conflict. And no, a camera instead of a gun is not the same.

I truly believe the root of the problem is with success and being recognized for our deeds of daring do amongst our peers (see record books). Rather than savoring the whole situation for the experience that it truly is we must prove ourselves by quantity and quality of game brought to bag. The expedience of which is facilitated by ever increasing technology.

Mon ami, MMS, yu dun be tu rite!

MMS, I think you are right on the money. When it changes from an experience into a competition we all lose.

Have darted both Rhino and Elephant with bow and arrow. It was intriguing and a minor engineering marvel to fit and tune a 500+ grain dart to the end of an arrow and get it to fly straight. However, after a few practice sessions, I was good to go.

For a bowhunter, darting is probably a bit safer, as it is a much larger target that we can hit with an arrow at a greater distance. The bow can accurately fling a darted arrow 50-60 yards. However, on other dangerous game with stick and string, such a Lion and Buffalo, shots were between 5-30 yards.

I don't want anybody to confuse my post as being anti darting or paintballing or whatever. If you want to do it for the experience of getting close to an apex game animal then I am all for it. I just don't see doing it so that you can then claim "I have shot all of the big 5" when actually you have not. Hunting entails the final act of taking the life of the animal and all of the responsibilty and emotion that goes with it. I will never take all five simply because of a lack of desire to shoot a leopard (ran Mt lions for years) and also, frankly like most hunters, because of economics. I guess I just don't understand the necessity of running over and sedating a large animal just to check off a line in a record book. Oh well, just wishing some things would slow down and that we could return a little bit of the nostalgia.

Happy hunting to all of you, no matter your preference.

P.S. I won't even start on these ultra long range "shooters".

This episode was a testament to the power of SCI to encourage people to compete for meaningless "awards". The laser dot clip was offensive. Made me wonder what kind of "wild" elephant she was shooting.

So, this young girl shoots a canned lion, darts a rino, and drops an elephant under questionable circumstances. Not enough detail was provided on the Leopard and Buffalo to comment, but I immediately noticed the buffalo was the last of the big five she took. Highly unusual.
In the end, this girl was cheated of the proper hunting ecxperience, and thinks she did something realy special. Who knows if she will ever mature enough to understand the real value of this "accomplishment".

Bill

quote:

I doubt many of us, myself included, would or could withstand the rigors of a 3 month foot safari in truly primative areas.

With the addition of water purification, anti malarials and antibiotics. That is EXACTLY the kind of hunt I'd love to be able to do someday.

I'm afraid it would be impossible to set up though.

JCS271,

So it's your way or the highway, yes? Do you have any idea how pompous your posts sound? And it's quite clear you have not conducted a green Rhino hunt, or you wouldn't dare say the things you are saying. You are entitled to your opinion, just don't get all pissy when not everyone agrees with you. BTW, if a laser is not OK, then why is a red-dot OK? Just askin'.

JMO

LH

some great photos
Can you post them here please.
:-)

I don't think anyone here suggested there is only one correct way. What was stated was the opinion and incredulity of the lenghts some go to for the purpose of being able to claim the "Big 5" or what ever plateau they aspire and the accolades confered upon them by formal or informal associations. Also, and here is the more important aspect, as a hunter the publication of videos depicting scenarios where by the average ambvilant not to mention rabid antihunter vewier is furnished with powerful ammunition to further their cause and sway ever increasing numbers of people does a great disservice to our passion/pursuit.

If it is legal to hunt in what ever particular manner you choose and you can live with the moral aspect of it by all means follow your dreams. If your desire or goal is to kill the biggest baddest what ever, have it entered in the record books display it in your trophy room and walk around with your chin up and your chest puffed out proclaiming for all the world your success, seriously, enjoy it. But by the same token, allow those of us who don't understand or desire to subscribe to that philosophy to wonder and comiserate with like minded folk.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
JCS271,

So it's your way or the highway, yes? Do you have any idea how pompous your posts sound? And it's quite clear you have not conducted a green Rhino hunt, or you wouldn't dare say the things you are saying. You are entitled to your opinion, just don't get all pissy when not everyone agrees with you. BTW, if a laser is not OK, then why is a red-dot OK? Just askin'.

JMO

Wow, to much caffeine this morning. It was meant to be a reflective post, and I certainly did not get "pissy" nor am I being "pompous". Please take a deep breath, go back and re read then if you have a point to discuss I would love to read it.

P.S. MMS, once again, very well said!

Wow JCS271, you fooled the Hell out of me as I sure thought you came across as a self rightous pompous ass. JMO.

quote:

Originally posted by Kathi:
http://www.christensenarms.com...h-full-episodes-2011


The entire episode is available on the Christensen Arms website.

To bad that they only had 50 bucks to spend on the video cam.
The films looks like 8mm films from the mid 50's!

I took the time to watch the program. The lazer on the elephant was an assist to a young hunter as to where the shot should be placed, I don't recall seeing the lazer on the elephant when the shot was taken. I don't know how many times I have watched elephant hunts and the time the PH took to explain and show seasoned hunters where a frontal brain shot has to be placed. Norm just used another aid to help a young hunter, enough about that. To the best of my knowledge Norm only hunts Zim and Namabia not RSA. Norm is a well respected PH. Oh I may be partial as I have hunted with Norm. I would like to see anyone here voice their negative opinions of the hunts to Norm as it would be interesting to see them pick their sorry ass of the groung as he would sort them out the old Zim way.

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
Oh I may be partial as I have hunted with Norm. I would like to see anyone here voice their negative opinions of the hunts to Norm as it would be interesting to see them pick their sorry ass of the groung as he would sort them out the old Zim way.

Well I sure don't want to get "sorted out the old zim way" by your friend so I guess I'll just add shining green lasers on the forehead of an elephant so that the client has an aiming point to my list of acceptable practices. I think I will now also reconsider my thoughts on just going ahead and letting the PH shoot my animals while I stay in camp. That way I will have more time to text updates of my latest accomplishments to SCI on my new satellite blackberry (with video!).

P.S. We probably don't need the vulgarity and name calling on posts that are intended to be thought provoking observations about "modern hunting techniques".

I must assume from your location you only use flint knives and your best "new" flint lock rifle for your hunting since you seem to have a dislike for modern equipment. As I said I didn't see Norm use the lazer during the shot.

Since my eyes aren't what they use to be I carry a pen lazer for my PH to use in aiding my finding a small pygmy antelope in the thick bush, man I need all the help I can get.

My Macho man days are behind me, I just take it one step at a time.

You have a good day now, hear.

quote:

Originally posted by eyeman:
This may get some negative replies, but here goes. Some people have a great deal of money and they choose to lavish their kids with hunts that most of us cannot afford. If her family didn't have the change, she would be shooting squirrels. The fact that she got an award from SCI, just confrims that money talks.

Hell I wish I was her brother....

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
I must assume from your location you only use flint knives and your best "new" flint lock rifle for your hunting since you seem to have a dislike for modern equipment. As I said I didn't see Norm use the lazer during the shot.

My Macho man days are behind me, I just take it one step at a time.

You have a good day now, hear.

I actually never got into the blackpowder thing, but I do love my longbow and have hunted pretty much exclusively with that for the past four years. I too never cared much for the macho thing, I do however have an open sight double rifle that I hope to one day take some dangerous game with on a walking style hunt.
Time will tell.......

I spend quite a lot of time reading in various Accurate Loading forum topics. For the most part it is quite informative and enjoyable. But I must ask, why is it that people resort to sarcasm, name calling, and recriminations instead of intelligent thought provoking discourse. Generaly, (present company excluded - sarcasm) it indicates an inability to foment and articulate a positon in a salient and cogent manner. Look, I'm one of the most oppiniated people you will ever meet but that doesn't mean I'm right and you are wrong if we differ.

Darts - would i dart a rhino? Yes (I would never kill one)
Lasers - range finder Yes aim point No
Rifle - with scope Yes illuminated reticle No
Bow - No (just ME but I find it less humane than rifle)
Elephant - Yes but will probably be the last quadruped I ever kill.
Leopard - daylight only and no dogs
Lion - Never
Buffalo - Have one hope a few more are in my future

The above is my oppinion, what I am comfortable with. It isn't a code I expect others to subscribe to lest they be deemed myopic self centered foolish inferior humans/hunters.

Unless I am mistaken these forums are here to share information with people of a similar bent. To grow our knowledge and understanding through the sharing of experiences broadening our exposure through the exploits of others. We don't have to agree 100%. If we did there would be far less for us to share and learn.

http://lizcaddell.com/index2.php#/gallery1/4/


Dr. FM,

Here is the young hunter's excellent website with her hunting photos. I hope this is what you were referring to in your post. The video link was of poor quality.

Since I dont do record books and thus, poor me, will never get "recognition, my last of the 7 DG is planned for 2013----it will be a darted Rhino...I will kill my Ele in Bots next year without aid of a laser or lighted reticle....having been up close and personal on Rhino with a camera, in a hunting area not park, I think darting one may be as dangerous as my wounded Lion or any of the Cape Buffalo I have taken. I look forward to the "rush".
Which sounds like more "fun"----spend $100,000US and kill a Rhino from 50 or more yds or stalk in close and put a dart in him not knowing what his reaction may be?

I don't have any problems with the laser. It's a smart tool, just as the shooting sticks are for those that need it.

I have more of a problem with the shooting sticks than the laser. You can learn to shoot at home, before you go. It just takes time and money, you can't get the experience to make 100% good choices on shot placement any place but africia. If you have access to a hunter who as done it and who will take you to the local zoo, would be close. The laser would be a good tool there also , but the zoo would not like it. Maybe Will would be avaible for a fee. I would pay for such a service. ( If the idea takes off I want my cut)

If her dad has the coin and can offer it to his daughter, and she has the "go get it done in her to do it", My hats off to both of them and yours should be too. Unless I see different, I am not going to assume it's a caned hunt.


JD

She is a lot better than that little brat 14-year-old McKenzie Sims on Young Blood, on Outdoor Channel.

Animals get sensitive to certain families of drugs. I don't know what they use to dart Rhino but I suspect it is something like M99. They will eventually overdose from drug sensitivity. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong about the drug.
It doesn't take cats long to get sensitive to lots of anesthetics and tranquilizers. I dont' treat many rhino but I have done a couple in the last 43 years.

I don't have the formula handy but the major drug is Morphine. As I understood it when it was legal in RSA a Rino could not be darted more than twice a year and 6 months between. Not one this week and then one next week and nothing for 51 weeks.

Guys, I just don't get all this pissing and moaning. Darting Rhino, SCI, etc, etc. There are powerful forces that are doing their dead level best to take away our hunting rights on a world wide scale.

This young lady is interested in hunting! This is the future of our sport. She seems to be a very nice and respectful person. She has not bought into the "Planet in Crisis" crap that so many young people have today.

We as hunters are fighting for our rights to preserve our heritage! I've done the Rhino dart hunt. I have had many non-hunters and anti-hunters make negative comments about my picture standing next to my Rhino thinking it was actually dead. When I explain the conservation effort of ranchers being able to make a profit from raising them by allowing a hunter to dart them twice a year and having a vet do a check up, and that success story that has generated in re-establishing their numbers, they always take a step back and rethink their position for a second or two. That allows me to go into some of the other aspects of how hunting IS conservation while they have their guard down. It's been a very effective argument!

If it isn't for you, Ok! But why do so many on this forum just have to take issue with every damn thing that is different from they way they do things. I mean, guys using tree stands for whitetail, wearing camo in a deer blind, darting a Rhino, she is too young to hunt DG, she only did it because her Daddy has money, so and so has a TV show and he is a complete baffoon because of it, my cat, my dog. Holy crap. Enough already!

I can't afford to hunt Tanzania but I can go to Zim and RSA. Should I start bashing the guys who go to Tanzania because they can afford things that I can't? I'm not into sour grapes!

So you have made decisions on what is ethical for you. Fine. But do we have to destroy another hunter's reputation just because they use more technology than you do? "Bow Hunt Only" bumper stickers. Some new show on TV that states it's for "The real hunters, the do it yourself hunters". It's beginning to make me sick!

Over on Facebook, there is a group called "Stop Trophy Hunting Now". They take pictures that hunters have posted and rip us apart. The one thing however that they do that is very effective is that they NEVER infight amongst themselves. They are working to stop hunting and they are unified! When are we going to start working together to preserve what we love.

Again, this young lady is a representative of the future of our sport. But go ahead, rip her to shreds because she did it different than you would or because her Daddy has more money than you do. Give me a break!

I agree with you Todd. I'm fighting with the news media and every crack smoking wino, retro hillbilly Hippy Chick that ever crawled out from under a rock over this Wolf issue..every day. One lady asked today, "Why kill Leopards, you don't eat them?" Oh the band wagon tuned up and the bashing started...right off the bat. After a series of attacks on her, she replied "I'm not an anti hunter, nor against hunting, but I just didn't understand why you would hunt something you didn't eat. I wasn't expecting this railroading." See, this is why we need to THINK before we randomly attack someone. I replied to her and told her we've eaten 100% of all Leopards, it's the other white meat, and even the entrails are consumed. Hopefully, she won't write us all off as jack asses. Modern technology is here, or should we go back to cap and ball? Cheers, LDK

quote:

Originally posted by JCS271:
I would love to hunt rhino but I sure don't think that shooting one with a dart gun "for scientific purposes" is hunting. If you just want to go up to one and kick it in the ass for fun and excitement go ahead but don't try to qualify it as hunting just to satisfy an ego. Just a guess but I am betting that some of those Tam rhinos have been injected so many times that they are starting to scar up and look like old hypes. I also figure that if I have not studied enough to know where to shoot an animal I probably shouldn't be out there in the first place, I sure don't need my ph to mark the spot with a laser.

actually I feel sorry for those who feel they have to kill something each time they go afield, otherwise they feel unacomplished.
some of the best experiences I had is when ive passed up game.
Hunting to me is about an over all experience-that encompasses several things.

If you read buffon hunter Ted Roosevelts account of Rhino with rifle, its hardly considered any great feat.
He and son Kermit shot over 500 animals[wounding many] on their 1909 Smithsonain Institute "scientific research" African expedition.


As Roosevelt stands over a freshly shot eland, a native guide approaches with the news of a rhinoceros sighted near by. Roosevelt follows the guide accompanied by Captain Arthur Slatter, an Englishman who runs an ostrich farm and an excellent hunter despite earlier losing his right hand......

"Slatter and I immediately rode in the direction given, following our wild-looking guide; the other gun-bearer trotting after us. In five minutes we had reached the opposite hillcrest, where the watcher stood, and he at once pointed out the rhino. The huge beast was standing in entirely open country, although there were a few scattered trees of no great size at some little distance from him. We left our horses in a dip of the ground and began the approach; I cannot say that we stalked him, for the approach was too easy. The wind blew from him to us, and a rhino's eyesight is dull. Thirty yards from where he stood was a bush four or five feet high, and through the leaves, it shielded us from the vision of his small, piglike eyes as we advanced toward it, stooping and in single file, I leading. The big beast stood like an uncouth statue, his hide black in the sunlight; he seemed what he was, a monster surviving over from the world's past, from the days when the beasts of the prime ran riot in their strength, before man grew so cunning of brain and hand as to master them. So little did he dream of our presence that when we were a hundred yards off he actually lay down.

"Walking lightly, and with every sense keyed up, we at last reached the bush, and I pushed forward the safety of the double-barreled Holland rifle which I was now to use for the first time on big game. As I stepped to one side of the bush so as to get a clear aim, with Slatter following, the rhino saw me and jumped to his feet with the agility of a polo pony. As he rose I put in the right barrel, the bullet going through both lungs. At the same moment he wheeled, the blood spouting from his nostrils, and galloped full on.

"Before he could get quite all the way round in his headlong rush to reach us, I struck him with my left-hand barrel, the bullet entering between the neck and shoulder and piercing his heart. At the same instant Captain Slatter fired, his bullet entering the neck vertebrae. Ploughing up the ground with horn and feet, the great bull rhino, still head toward us, dropped just thirteen paces from where we stood. "This was a wicked charge, for the rhino meant mischief and came on with the utmost determination."

Darting Rhinos and Lasering elephants seems to be enjoyed by some.

But not me.

It cannot be called any sort of a "hunt" no metter how one can stretch it.

If you enjoy it, go ahead and do it.

But, I honestly think by encouraging this soprt of thing, we are joining the PC crowd.

And that, my friends, is wrong.