Hi all,

I'm haveing a discussion with my licencing officer over a big bore rifle that Im looking to put on my ticket.

They are not entirely happy about a 375 for deer here in the UK but the guidelines accept a 45-70. So I started thinking....

Given the 450-400's heritage as a BP calibre, (and I'm assuming they are the same bullet) then I might be able to get them to agree to the 450-400 for used here in the UK and abroad.

My questions are. In Africa, what is the benefit of each calibre, namely is there something that one does significantly better than the other? What would the recoil be like in the 450?

At the moment assume a scoped double in both cases.

By the way could we try and a void a discussion of the merits of our respective firearms licencing laws if possible pls.

Thanks
K

I'm a bit out of touch with UK firearms laws but get an idea that they won't allow the 450/400 for use in the UK. However, whether they like it or not, you are allowed to use a .375 for deer......... Why not consult your local BASC firearms officer for advice.....

The .375 is far more versatile. It's a belted, rimless cartridge, and primarily a magazine rifle round, as I'm sure you know. Using bullets from 235 to 300 grains, it has been used on everything that walks or crawls, and to good effect.

The .450-.400 is a fine round as well, but more specialized, IMHO. It's a rimmed design, best suited to double or single shot rifles. It has been used effectively on all of the Asian and African DG. I would say that its strong suit is big, relatively heavy game at close range. In a well made rifle, the .450-.400 shouldn't kick you much at all, BTW.

The .450-.400 would certainly do the trick on deer as well as the big stuff, but for all around use, if I were in your shoes and had to choose (God forbid!), I would go with the .375.

On the other hand, since you have your heart set on a double rifle . . . .

If you like the 450-400 but want to build a bolt action rifle, then the 404 Jeffery is the most similar in terms of original ballistics, with a slight edge to the 404J with modern powders in modern rifles.

Unless I was hunting DG in Africa, I would opt for the .375 H&H, its a much better all around cartridge and I don't like scopes on double rifles, that IMO is akin to incest!

Hi Fallow Buck, there should be no problem with being able to use the .375, as far as I know, although I am not too clued up about all the regulations and exceptions here in the UK, it would be best to chat to someone who really knows. I do know that the minimum calliber you can use for deer, but not sure of the max! In Britain, it is basically 6mm or a .243, but in Scotland, you can use one of the centre-fire .22's. I dont think a 6X45 makes it ballistically, (although it would be perfect for roe and muntjac), but a little light maybe for sika or fallow deer. I have seen .458 win mag and Lott ammo (Hornady) advertised in one or 2 gun stores (from a gun magazine). However, whether you can use this ammo and calliber on deer I do not know.

I know some of the laws can be a bit bizarre. I believe that you can be arrested for having a loaded weapon in public, if you are caught carying a multi-shot PCP air-rifle with the chamber empty, minus magazine, but with a loaded magazine in your pocket! I have seen .375 ammo (270gr Remington soft points) in the one and only local gun-shop I have been to, but dont exepect to see a great selection in this calliber. I am not sure about reloading and reloading laws nor the availablitly of components etc, as well as the regulations concerned there, but am sure that with the price of ammo, reloading would be preferred.

As for a .450-400 BP, I have seen a beautiful one on sale, cant remember the make, but think it may was a Holland and Holland, at around £5 500 if I remember. As for big-bore double nitro rifles for deer, I dont know about that. I wouldnt think most people really use much more than a .30 calliber bolt-action rifle, even on big red deer. The 9.3 as far as ammo choice is better from what I have seen, you wouldnt have a problem with a 9.3 X 74R double for deer I am pretty sure, but for Africa it may be a little light-side.

I recently got a Ruger No. 1 in 450/400, mostly with the idea of shooting it for fun. I can't feel much difference in recoil between that and a 375. Agreed the 375 is a much better all around, but perhaps the 400 would be a little better for close range on buffalo.

I don't consider any BP double a great buffalo choice but the 450-400-3" or 3-1/4" is a fantastic round..and yes, it has considerably more whump than the .375 or at least it "seems" to visually thump them better, but I don't suppose I would swear to it in court.

Fallow Buck, I would be interested to know the reason why the firearms officer is not happy with the .375. I would think that it has something to do with the range, power and overpenetration problems that can happen if the bullet whistles through the deer and woods for a few miles! It may not be ethical either, as it would probably deafen all the rabbits and native fauna for miles, as well as being a fire-hazard!

If you can get a deer-use license for either the .375 or .450-400 that would be very sweet indeed. I wonder what the officers would think about using a .450-400 with BP loads for deer. If they passed that, it would be great. The recoil would be pretty gentle I am sure, and you could nuke it up for Africa. By the same token though, you could download the .375 right down too if need be. Components; brass, bullets, etc would be much cheaper for the .375 though I would think, especially if you intend to shoot it a fair bit. Let me know what they say, wish you best of luck there.

Nzou,

Many of our firearms officers know nothing about firearms or ballistics, so their opinions are based purely on bore size and the idea that bigger is more dangerous.

On the other hand I have come across some very knowledgable firearms officers who are incredibly helpful. My land has been approved for the 375 now and the visiting officer approved it for deer use. We just now need to get the one guy at the top of the pile to sign off on it.

I think I'll get this all wrapped up next week then I just need to find a suitable gun.

Rgds,
FB

quote:

Originally posted by Fallow Buck

I think I'll get this all wrapped up next week then I just need to find a suitable gun.

Rgds,
FB

Well, in that caliber you certainly have alot of options. I think this is the fun part of all the thinking we do, when you actually go out and get one.

Hi Fallow Buck, that is excellent news, am sure that you can relax and enjoy shopping around for a rifle now. Do you have your sights set on anything in particular? There should be quite a choice in .375 calliber, even if you have to specially order it. Choice can be quite a problem too sometimes when all the rifles you pick up, shoulder, and inspect all look and feel like 'the one'!
Enjoy,
Regards
Nzou.

quote:

Originally posted by Fallow Buck:
Hi all,

I'm haveing a discussion with my licencing officer over a big bore rifle that Im looking to put on my ticket.

They are not entirely happy about a 375 for deer here in the UK but the guidelines accept a 45-70. So I started thinking........Given the 450-400's heritage as a BP calibre, (and I'm assuming they are the same bullet) then I might be able to get them to agree to the 450-400 for used here in the UK and abroad.

Fallow Buck, I feel for you with the dumb laws you have to opperate under in the UK!
It is evident the laws were put in place by people who have zero understanding of firearms, or their use, for any purpose.

If you are considering both chamberings in a double rifle, then the 375 H&H is better in the flanged version. On the 450/400's (450 case necked down to .400 cal)there are two, and only one of them has a black powder heritage. That is the 450/400 3/1/4" which was first offered in a blk pdr version, then loaded with smokeless with no other changes, causing several problems, Mostly stuck cases, or blow-ups caused by folks shooting the smokeless powder loads in black powder rifles. The 450/400NE 3" Jeffery was never offered in a black powder version, and is not interchangable with the 3 1/4" earlier version. The 3" cartridge has it's shoulder set much farther forward than the 3 1/4" version, so the 3" NE rounds will not chamber in a black powder 3 1/4" rifle. Any rifle you find that is chambered for the 450/400NE 3", is automaticlly NE proofed. In general the 3 1/4" version uses a .408 bullet diameter, and the 450/400NE 3" generally uses a .411 diameter bullet, but both diameters can be found in both cartridges, on occasion, further makeing the 450/400s, a confusing cartridge. I'm sure you are aware of all this, but there are some young folks who read here, who may not be!

quote:

My questions are. In Africa, what is the benefit of each calibre, namely is there something that one does significantly better than the other? What would the recoil be like in the 450?

At the moment assume a scoped double in both cases.

By the way could we try and a void a discussion of the merits of our respective firearms licencing laws if possible pls.

Thanks
K

Again assumeing both calibers in a scoped double rifle, as you mention, Both are fine for your purposes in the UK, with the nod going slightly in favor of the 375 Flanged mag, but the 450/400NE 3" is a fine deer rifle as well. At the DRSS (Double Rifle Shooter's Society) anual shoot/Wild boar hunts, many use the 450/400s for shooting all sorts of game on a regular basis, from little whitetail deer to 380 lb boar, and at ranges from 20 yds to 200 yds. The longer ranges are a little easier with the 375 fl mag, however.

When you take your rifle to Africa, both are still well suited to that hunting as well, but on dangerous game the 450/400NE rounds are head and shoulders above the 375FL Mag,IMO, but both are legal. I have shot Cape Buffalo with a 375 and I don't find it lacking, however, in very close cover, the 450/400 has an edge here.

If the officials operate on the assumption that bigger is more dangerous,why would they consider the 45-70 (.458 Dia)acceptable, and a 375 (.375 dia) not?

In any event, I hope you get your ticket updated for the one you want! Good luck..... When dealing with bureaucrats, one never knows!

Hi Mac,

Thanks for the info. I'm not really that up to speed with the big end of the calibre spectrum, so info such as yours is very helpful. I'm just waiting for the final OK then I can go shopping.

Thanks again,
FB

I don't know how I could hunt and live where I had to get someone's OK for what caliber rifle I buy. You have my envy, as I don't know how you can keep you cool when someone tries to tell you that you can't shoot deer with a .375. If you're out hunting and have to take a leak, I'll bet you have to fill out a govt form in triplicate.

Well you need to move to America where you can kill a deer with a pointy stick or a 50 bmg.

I lived in England and as I see it the girls are prettier here, The food is better here, the weather tends to be better...or at least more variety...you love guns and hunting sooooo...

Yanks are not all that bad...just the liberals

If you get pinings for jolly old England there are plenty of English in Santa Monica Ca....just hang out at the English pubbs and have pretty Amerian women swoon on yer accent. My dad is 65 and it still drives them giggley.

Chicks
Guns
Good weather...

Need I say more?