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I would really like to see a survey of PHs regarding number of client shots and PH back-up shots taken for each buffalo killed(and another survey for elephant) categorized by client's cartridge. I would be willing to bet the medium calibers, such as the 375, require fewer cartridges and less back-up than the larger calibers. Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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Jason, you would be 100% correct... Karl Stumpfe Ndumo Hunting Safaris www.huntingsafaris.net karl@huntingsafaris.net P.O. Box 1667, Katima Mulilo, Namibia Cell: +264 81 1285 416 Fax: +264 61 254 328 Sat. phone: +88 163 166 9264 | |||
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AIU, that depends on where you hunt them. IMO the areas on the Zambezi average around 36 inch spreads, the areas around Kavango/ Kwando, I think average closer to 40 plus. If you go to Bwabwhata, between Kavango and Kwando, you have a very good chance for much bigger than that even. Here's a recent bull (Sobbe, 30 miles from Kwando):  Here is a pic I recently took of a nice bull in Bwabwata:  And lastly here are a bull shot on the floodplains where the Chobe joins the Zambezi:  The stated law is only for Namibia, Zim has a simmelar law, but I do not know about the rest. (I do know that Natal in the RSA does state .375 H&H as minimum for buffalo.) Karl Stumpfe Ndumo Hunting Safaris www.huntingsafaris.net karl@huntingsafaris.net P.O. Box 1667, Katima Mulilo, Namibia Cell: +264 81 1285 416 Fax: +264 61 254 328 Sat. phone: +88 163 166 9264 | |||
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You could ask the same question about scoped magazine rifles vs doubles...I think I know what the answer would be, whether it is buffalo or elephant. | |||
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To help put this thread in more perspective...Many hunters have taken fine eland; Cape, Livingstone, East African and Lord Derby...with the standard .338 cartridge/225 grain bullet. I'd be willing to bet, more than half of those eland are equal size if not heavier, than the run of the mill average cape buffalo that require a .375 cartridge. I know with certainty the two Lord Derby bulls I took with my .338 Lazzeroni/Titan weighed far more than any cape buffalo I've taken with the exception of one buff I took in Botswana. It's not that I've shot small cape buffalo. It's the fact that mature eland bulls are so darned big. | |||
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Karl, Would you care to explain? Why this is so?thanks.
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Karl Stumpfe Ndumo Hunting Safaris www.huntingsafaris.net karl@huntingsafaris.net P.O. Box 1667, Katima Mulilo, Namibia Cell: +264 81 1285 416 Fax: +264 61 254 328 Sat. phone: +88 163 166 9264 | |||
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It has been my experience that scope sighted rifles are damn'd good insurance as far as killing shots go irregardless of caliber. Of course I don't follow my own advice and shoot an iron-sighted double almost exclusively! | |||
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Karl Your reply got lost in the quote. I took the liberty to move it so that is could be more clear. Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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And back to the original question:
I remember reading a blog by Ray Atkinson who compared the 338WM,9.3x62,375HH as pretty much the same class of cartridge. I would agree, They are similar to each other in the way that the 270,280,30-06 are similar for NA deer. And yes, I've taken buffalo with the two ends of the triad mentioned above. Legally, but on a local license approved by the head of the game department. The legal question with the 338 mostly stems from the relatively late introduction of the 338WM to the African hunting scene. It is truly a great calibre. (PS: the above buffalo taken with the 338 used a 250 Nosler Partion at 2700 [around 70 grains 4350 if I remember rightly. It was back in the 80's]. With today's bullets a 225 grain TTSX up through the Woodleigh 300 grain RN-soft would all work reliably.). If they re-did the laws, the 338WM should probably be included for buffalo. But that doesn't make it recommended, any more than a 243 is necessarily recommended for mule deer or elk, even if legal. Some countries used to specify 40 calibre as minimum, which put the 375 into that illegal area with the 338, too. There is something to be said for this and it wouldn't hurt to factor that 'advice' into the discussion. In the thread above some have mentioned that the 375 was safer on buffalo than larger rounds. I've heard some PH's say exactly the opposite: that the 375 has resulted in more chasing of wounded buffalo than 416 and larger in their experience. Of course, shot placement is the absolute first criterion, coupled with good bullet construction. Personally, I would recommend following the law. That means putting aside the 338 in most countries, even though its 4000 ftlbs and flatness might make it practically equivalent to the 375 for an efficient, one-rifle hunt. But even more, I would recommend learning to shoot a 416 over a 375. The 375 (and 338 if it were legal) is minimum. The 416s have more power, more diameter, equal or better flatness if handloaded to Rigby capabilities, and are very similar in recoil and handling to the 375. I think the reason that everyone talks about the 375 being a basic minimum heavy calibre that an average hunter can adapt to, is that 416s have been rather few and far between until the 1990s. Now we have inexpensive 416 Rigbys, 416 Remingtons, and 416 Rugers. So that is where my recommendation goes. They are a better buffalo calibre and still good for plains game. If someone is going to practice for an African hunt with a 'new' rifle, or a rifle that they do not normally hunt with, then they might as well start with a 416. It's the choice that I made 'last century', and I've been in positions to re-consider it a couple of times and have repeated it those couple of times. If one has a choice--375 or 416--grab the 416, load up, sight-in, and start hunting. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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I would say use a .375 instead of a .416 unless you're hunting elephant. You can do it all with a .375 with less cost, recoil or trouble finding ammunition. I admit the .416 calibers are better for elephant than a .375 but they're not as good as .458 or bigger calibers. I've never found the .416's flatter shooting than the .375's but rather the opposite. See what Harry Selby says about the .375 as a one-gun do it all caliber. I figure he has a fair amount of experience to speak on the subject. | |||
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And Mr. Selby carried a .416 Rigby... | |||
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We just did this over on the 'overrating toughness ... buffalo' thread in "Africa BigGame Hunting" section. A poster claimed that a well-placed lung shot over the heart with a .366" bullet had poor results. He thought that a bigger hole was called for but only moved up to .375", +.009". You get what you pay for. A .416 350 grain TTSX with a .444 BC at 2800 fps will outperform a 375HH. That's physics. (The 416 has the same momentum/area ratio as the 375 with 300gr at 2600fps, actually the 416 still has a 2% better ratio and that is applied over a 23% larger area.) To shoot flatter the 375 needs to drop 100 grains to 250 grains and would only pick up 1.9 inches at 400 yards. (Same pressure levels and zero.) Would it work on buffalo? Yes, but not as reliably. If the 416 recoil is noticeably more and not negligibly more-- yes, if-- (I'm just glad that there is enough to know that rifle fired), there may be special considerations. (The guy at "Real Guns" claims that the 416 Rigby is the largest calibre that he can say that he enjoyably shoots from the bench--without lying through his teeth.) The guy in that thread has a painful back-problem. I surprised that he can handle a 375. More power to him. I've even heard about people getting special licenses with medical handicaps where they are restricted to lower calibres. A 338 with 225 TTSX might come in handy though the exceptions that I'm thinking about actually used a ... 30-06. Not my recommendation but we do what we have to do. As DLS said, "Mr. Selby carried a .416 Rigby." Though with slower 400/410 grain bullets. Again, everything is a trade-off. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Correct, Mr. Selby carried a .416 for backup. What you prescribed earlier as an all arounder for Africa was .416. I say it is more of a backup gun than an all-arounder. By the way, when you compare bullets from two different calibers, you should try to match their sectional densities before allowing that one is a better performer than the other. I use 270 grain TSX bullets at 2800 fps and it is no slouch and will kill buffalo as well as many other species without the bother of an above .40 caliber. I do agree that if you are going to load 400 grain bullets at 2400 fps or so, it is a better killer than any .375 on thick skinned game. I don't see the need for it as an all purpose gun. For thick skinned animals at the ranges they are normally shot at, I would prefer something bigger than the next step up from .375. Just my take on it and that doesn't mean I'm right. Thanks, jfm | |||
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OK, though I can't see much difference for 200-300 yard shots between a 350 grain at 2800fps and a 270 grain at 2800, -- except a little extra energy and diameter. The extra energy and diameter are not necessary for plains game, but they don't hurt, either.
Actually, I did account for sectional density. The 350grain .416 lands right between the 270 and 300 grain .375s. But that is only a static figure that still needs to reflect the overall momentum pressing on the sectional area that is being penetrated. That is why I calculated momentum/area. For example. a 7mm bullet (with the same sectional density and velocity of a 375 bullet) does not have the same killing power as the 375, though it will probably penetrate equally. With bullet constuction and velocity being the same for bullets of the same sectional density they would theoretically penetrate very similarly. But the one with the larger frontal area will be more effective.
With new bullet technology I've stopped using the 400grain .416" at 2400. The 350 TSX and Flatnose at 2800 will outperform it. One needs to raise the velocity to 2450-2600 fps before the 400 grain equals or excels. Now the important thing is having something to hunt.  I would happily walk the forest with an accurate 270TSX at 2800fps in 375. I would imagine that 49 out of 50 animals wouldn't know the difference. But the one buff mentioned in the other thread might have. So I've made my own compromise and am even happier with the 416. Rumor has it that Saeed splits the difference and shoots a 300 grain .375 at 2800fps. That works, too. And remembering the thread-- I would also happily walk the forest the rest of my days with only a 338WM 225TTSX+some flatnose solids, assuming I had a legal permit to include Mr. Nyati. But I would give the nod to the 375 as a better buffalo gun than the 338. They are almost incrementally balanced for similar velocity, BC, relative bullet weights, and penetration, 338WM : 375HH : 416Rig. The only relative advantage in the series is the increasing frontal area. Beyond the 416 one starts to give up velocity per momentum/area. (Maybe the monster 505 Gibbs could be loaded up to match these lighter trajectories, but I don't know anyone who does. We all draw a line where we say 'this is enough' for a reach-out-there kind of rifle.) The only advantage in the 338 would be having a 7.5 pound rig (scope and ammo included!). My wife says 'they jump a little' when shooting one. But they are easy on the shoulder as the trail streches long. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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416Tanzan, Please don't get me wrong. I have owned a .416 Remington and did like the power but it was more than I could handle accurately. I can handle the .375 accurately and it seems to handle 1025 lb Alaskan bears really well with the 270 and 300 grain TSX and Swift A-Frame bullets. All I'm saying is that a .375 will handle all you can deal with unless elephant is on the list. If elephant is among the game taken, I can see your point on the .416 caliber and agree whole heartedly. I personally think a .375 is good for everything except elephant which deserves an above .400 caliber. My preference is to use something in the .458/.474/.510 caliber class for elephant. But keep in mind, I've never hunted elephant. I might be afraid of them and I'm not certain my budget will allow hunting them. We'll see what the future brings. I learned that from Bill Stewart on this forum. If I'm wrong, then he is too. Thanks, jfm Thanks, jfm | |||
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jfm, the old 1912 375 H&H will handle elephant as well, but like you, and 416Tanzan, I'd prefere something larger for a designated elephant rifle. Personally I have never been able to warm up to any of the 416 cartridges for anything, and I've tried them all. Most folks can't shoot the 416s well enough to make them a good choice for an "ALL AROUND", and on the other end they are not much above the 375H&H, in stopping power to make them an all round stopper. With the same basic recoil you can move into the .450s or 470 class rifles that will do a fine job on all bite, stomp, and gore class of animals. For a DEDICATED elephant rifle, the caliber should begine with the number "5", and have two barrels, two triggers, and iron sights! Just one old fart's opinion!  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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