Over the years I have heard, more and more frequently, people claim with assertion that male lions from the Selous ecosystem rarely have a decent mane. Very often, this statement is used to justify their poorly maned lion trophy.

It seems that I fall into the minority of people that think it is not the case. Having spent a fair amount of time myself in and around the Selous and having regularly seen, with my own eyes, good maned lions from that area, I feel that I can argue my case pretty well! I know i am not alone on this point

Here below are several photos of male lions sport hunted in the Selous by clients and their PHs caliming that these are typical "Selous maneless" lions and they represent the trophy expectation for any one wishing to hunt for the king of beasts in the Selous ecosystem. Amongst the reasons given or claimed for the "poor mane" are:
- Hot and dry climate
- Thick and dense brush
- Poor Genetics























With just a small amount of searching, I was able to find the following photos showing male lions in the Selous with good and great manes, all of which are far better than any of the above posted pics. One does not have to be a rocket scientist (nor a "Lion Expert" ) to see that the above lion photos represent youngsters. Had they been given the chance to grow and reach adulthood, ALL would have MOST DEFINETELY grown a decent mane. The trick is to NOT shoot them when they are 5 yo or younger















And some more recent pics from Selous:










There are a whole bunch of pics of Selous male lion showing great manes on this website scroll for pics of Selous male lions but they are copywright protected so I did not copy and paste to this thread.

So one could easily argue that male lions in the Selous ecosystem do have good mane development potential....... if allowed to reach maturity and the "Sales pitch BS" used by PHs and booking agents to mislead prospective clients' expectations so that they are happy with their "maneless" trophy is a shame really.

Let the discussion begin!

I've seen some average sized mains on what were over six year old lion taken south of Selous (aged by reserve Ecologists).
Obviously big Mane lion do habit these lower Miombo areas but it seems mane-less or thin maned lion are more common in these areas than say, Serengeti, Kafuie, Chobie or higher Miombo woodland for instance. Just my thoughts on what I have seen with my little experience.
But in saying that, it does look as though the first few Lion look quite young.

Here are more Pics of Quality Selous Lions http://www.samarassafaris.com/...gallery_updated.html

Enjoy

Selous fame Brian Nicholson writes in his book: The Last of old Africa that the lion mane genetics in the eastern Selous are much poorer in comparison to the western Selous blocks and Kilombero Valley. I think this is true but there are ocasionaly also Good maned lions in the Eastern Selous what i have seen.

Just pathetic. From the top Lion photos 4 and 5 look to be mature, but the rest still show the marked spot pattern of immaturity. I doubt a couple here would have seen their third birthday.

I have now and again come across large mature poorly maned Lions in Zambia but nothing like what has been illustrated here.

My vote therefore would be good sales BS.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame: My vote therefore would be good sales BS.

You mean "Bush Salesmanship"! Starts with "We've been seeing/hearing/smelling/dreaming-of this huge xyz...let's go check it out", culminates with "SHOOT SHOOT SHOOT", and ends on "What a shot! This is the best XYZ we have taken all year!".

There's a book deal here somewhere - "Great White Lies as Told by Great White Hunters"

quote:

Originally posted by Bill C:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame: My vote therefore would be good sales BS.

You mean "Bush Salesmanship"! Starts with "We've been seeing/hearing/smelling/dreaming-of this huge xyz...let's go check it out", culminates with "SHOOT SHOOT SHOOT", and ends on "What a shot! This is the best XYZ we have taken all year!".

There's a book deal here somewhere - "Great White Lies as Told by Great White Hunters"

Well said.

some of those big maned lions are from lukes selous area. I have hunted there several times and saw alot of lions and the only fair sized mane was a young lion which i did not shoot. I did take a lion there that was over 11 years old but had a small mane. I know that if younger lions there are left alone there would be better manes but i personnaly have not seen any lions like those in the pictues. I also don't know how old those pictures are but i do believe some big maned lions live in selous but they are not easy to find and all maneless males that are shot are not young not talking about posted pictues but lions i have seen there that were big older mature lions with small manes.

I don't think anyone will deny that one may find an older male lion with a very poor mane in the Selous ecosystem - probably with more regularity than other ecosystems but the way the general public (hunting fraternity) potray it a general rule is, without a doubt, UNTRUE!

There are many regular African hunters on this forum who have bought into this "sales pitch", even if they have not set foot there before to see for themselves. I wish to correct this false impression.

I am also starting to believe that what we are seeing today might be the result of too high an offtake which has left the mane "genetic bank" quite depleted. One thing appears quite apparent, and that is it was definetely easier to find good maned lions 15 - 20 years ago!

Mbogo: I don't want to disagree with B Nicholson but Luke's blocks are all Eastern Selous and there are enough pictures of good maned lions taken there that would seem to contradict this statement.

Bwanamitch,

Thanks for that.

Photo 9 and 10 shows the same Lion cub. Pity it does not show the face of the so called PH.

correct

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
Bwanamitch,

Thanks for that.

Photo 9 and 10 shows the same Lion cub. Pity it does not show the face of the so called PH.

+1 Too bad the so called "professional" wasn't the one being held up for the picture. I do agree with you about lion 4. It does look a little aged in the face. I wouldn't say he's ready for retirement though.

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
I don't think anyone will deny that one may find an older male lion with a very poor mane in the Selous ecosystem - probably with more regularity than other ecosystems but the way the general public (hunting fraternity) potray it a general rule is, without a doubt, UNTRUE!

Amen!!! Look and some of the amazing lions Gerard Miller and Mark Sullivan have taken over the years from the Selous in their books. Amazing!!!

Brett

Agreed.

There has been too much shooting of immature lions in the Selous over the years.

I am guilty of killing one myself, although it was a while ago and done in complete ignorance of proper conservation measures. Some of those have only been suggested and adopted fairly recently.

I'm hoping for a comeback of good, fully maned male lions in the Selous, following the imposition of the minimum six year old rule.

Time will tell.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:

I am also starting to believe that what we are seeing today might be the result of too high an offtake which has left the mane "genetic bank" quite depleted. One thing appears quite apparent, and that is it was definetely easier to find good maned lions 15 - 20 years ago!

Sadly this also seems to be the case with buffalo in a lot of areas.
Any age estimation on Lion No;5?

Very interesting series of photos. Thanks for sharing

fairgame & Michael Robinson I appreciate your comments in this thread.

In 2001 while on a 21 day dedicated Lion hunt in the Selous my PH said "You can shoot that one if you want." The Lion he referred to was a young male who still had spots visible on his lower legs. He was also still with his Momma. I politely declined and noted to him that the cat "was still in spots and runnin' with it's Momma". maybe two hours later he said he was glad I decided not to shoot that Lion. Huh?

Why in hell did he suggest this obviously immature Lion could be shot? Maybe it had something to do with the cost of the safari - $50,000 - and that hunters spending that amount weren't happy going home without - ya think? Smaller tips? I went home without both the $50K and a Lion but without regrets.

This was well before the current and only recently heard concern about taking young Lions, but the results of taking such Lions would have become evident within 4-6 years, which match up to the current concern.

Now, certainly some blame belongs with the hunters, who did not know enough about the Lion to recognize what they were looking at, but many go to Africa on safari almost completely ignorant of such things and rely entirely on their PH for the correct advice on species selection. I did so on my first couple of safaris but was fortunate to have PHs who felt part of their job was to educate me. Also, I prefer to know what I'm about, so began my own research, which is still ongoing today. That 2001 Lion safari was around #11 for me, so I had learned a thing or two by that time.

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:

I am also starting to believe that what we are seeing today might be the result of too high an offtake which has left the mane "genetic bank" quite depleted. One thing appears quite apparent, and that is it was definetely easier to find good maned lions 15 - 20 years ago!

Sadly this also seems to be the case with buffalo in a lot of areas.
Any age estimation on Lion No;5?

Difficult to judge from one photo. He looks big and solid and lacks the spot pattern. However he also lacks facial scars and that hard look of maturity so at a guess probably around 5.

To be honest I would have taken him if he was not with a pride.

Note it is a piece of piss to approximate the age of Lion whilst they are alive.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
fairgame & Michael Robinson I appreciate your comments in this thread.

In 2001 while on a 21 day dedicated Lion hunt in the Selous my PH said "You can shoot that one if you want." The Lion he referred to was a young male who still had spots visible on his lower legs. He was also still with his Momma. I politely declined and noted to him that the cat "was still in spots and runnin' with it's Momma". maybe two hours later he said he was glad I decided not to shoot that Lion. Huh?

Why in hell did he suggest this obviously immature Lion could be shot? Maybe it had something to do with the cost of the safari - $50,000 - and that hunters spending that amount weren't happy going home without - ya think? Smaller tips? I went home without both the $50K and a Lion but without regrets.

This was well before the current and only recently heard concern about taking young Lions, but the results of taking such Lions would have become evident within 4-6 years, which match up to the current concern.

Now, certainly some blame belongs with the hunters, who did not know enough about the Lion to recognize what they were looking at, but many go to Africa on safari almost completely ignorant of such things and rely entirely on their PH for the correct advice on species selection. I did so on my first couple of safaris but was fortunate to have PHs who felt part of their job was to educate me. Also, I prefer to know what I'm about, so began my own research, which is still ongoing today. That 2001 Lion safari was around #11 for me, so I had learned a thing or two by that time.

Mike,

If I were you I would have made so much noise about that you would have been heard in space. And I would have made sure none of my hard earned would have found it way into the hands of an assholes like that.

My policy is that if I cannot show you a trophy Lion over 21 days, a Lion like those I advertise then you get your money back and no hard feelings.

I can understand the conservation side of taking an old Lion but one must remember what we are doing this for.
On my first buffalo Safari I passed up an old Duggerboy that we stumbled upon as he lay in the shade of a sand river. I was keen for more Buff hunting and ended up taking a less mature bull (no baby though) after a few more hunting days and experiences.
I for one hunt more for the experience than the end trophy. In fact I'm so over all the troubles with trophies that a lot of mine now adorn the walls of hunting camp.
Make it law or rule to take only mature animals but don't forget what the big picture is.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

My policy is that if I cannot show you a trophy Lion over 21 days, a Lion like those I advertise then you get your money back and no hard feelings.

+1

Probably will end up with some clients you enjoy hunting with having that attitude.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

My policy is that if I cannot show you a trophy Lion over 21 days, a Lion like those I advertise then you get your money back and no hard feelings.

With that amount of time and money in prime Lion country, you probably will have little chance of that occurring .

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

My policy is that if I cannot show you a trophy Lion over 21 days, a Lion like those I advertise then you get your money back and no hard feelings.

+1

Probably will end up with some clients you enjoy hunting with having that attitude.

A refund could apply to "farmed or guaranteed" Lion where you can photo-shop the details beforehand and literally request for the mane to be shampooed and blow dried a few days before the shoot

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

My policy is that if I cannot show you a trophy Lion over 21 days, a Lion like those I advertise then you get your money back and no hard feelings.

With that amount of time and money in prime Lion country, you probably will have little chance of that occurring .

That is why I offer it.

fairgame,

To make matters worse, there were two of us doing a 2x2, both dedicated Lion hunts, and neither of us came home with a Lion. My partner also had an Ele tag and didn't get that either. Not one of my better safaris but done with a major company with whom we had done safari prior in two other countries. We had some discussion with the owner afterwards, as I felt the whole area had been shot out before our arrival; no compensation was ever offered. We never hunted with them again.

I believe your policy is as it should be on any DG hunt, ie; no animal, no pay. It really is not difficult to find shootable DG animals that are mature. If the client chooses not to shoot a mature animal, then it's on him. Leopard is a possible exception as sometimes you know they are there but cannot get 'em onto bait.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
fairgame,

To make matters worse, there were two of us doing a 2x2, both dedicated Lion hunts, and neither of us came home with a Lion. My partner also had an Ele tag and didn't get that either. Not one of my better safaris but done with a major company with whom we had done safari prior in two other countries. We had some discussion with the owner afterwards, as I felt the whole area had been shot out before our arrival; no compensation was ever offered. We never hunted with them again.

I believe your policy is as it should be on any DG hunt, ie; no animal, no pay. It really is not difficult to find shootable DG animals that are mature. If the client chooses not to shoot a mature animal, then it's on him. Leopard is a possible exception as sometimes you know they are there but cannot get 'em onto bait.

Mike,

I know the company it is called Shenanigans.

There are many variables to this offer. For example it would not apply to some who have proof that their concession consistently produces mature Lion and leopard with let us say a contemporary success rate of 75% plus. It is up to you to do the the research here.

I do think you could argue your case if you were sold Lion at in a prime area in prime time and were one of the first hunters of the season. After all the tag would be on sold to the next client.

In an ideal safari world the daily rates should be low and the trophy fees high. The operator is paid his dues on success.

Will this stop the shooting of immature Lions? I am not sure.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:


In an ideal safari world the daily rates should be low and the trophy fees high. The operator is paid his dues on success.

Will this stop the shooting of immature Lions? I am not sure.

This makes total sense. It may reduce the super short safaris enticing the client to hold out for a better than average animal due to the high trophy fee.
A friend I will be on Safari next season with is after Buff, Sable with the possibility of Lion. Due to the high trophy fee on the Lion, he has already told me he wont shoot one unless its exceptional.

I personally think the final decision to shoot a lion or not should be up to the PH. He then can offer the lion regardless of mane to the client as a mature specimen. A lot of hunters particularly on their first lion safari are very apt to shoot any big bodied lion that comes to the bait so the PH's experience has to come into play here. Of course the only way to have this work is if the PH has no pressure from his safari operator to encourage a client to shoot an immature lion.

I think that safari operators should make it clear to clients upon booking a lion safari that the suitability of a lion for harvest will be up to the PH. The last lion contract that I sent out had that caveat added in bold letters.

I had a similiar although not as dramatic experience on my fist lion hunt in Zambia. The male that was with the pride was actively mating with one of the females so we at least knew he was not a cub and he'd actually driven out the two year old male that we had seen with the pride. It took a couple of days to get a good look at him but when we did see him I knew he was not what I wanted and the PH told me he was not a great lion but I could shoot him if I wanted. The motivation here as I found out later was that the safari operator had a 100% success rate for the last couple of seasons and he did not want to blow those stats. The operator actually put quite a bit of pressure on the PH to just shoot a lion but it didn't happen on that safari.

Mark

I know who could answer the question...if given the chance.

If I recall correctly, all available Lion tags at the SCI show are always sold prior to the end of the 4 days. There are more people who want to take a Lion then there are available Lion tags. But as Mark Young and I related, merely having the tag is no guarantee of taking a mature cat. Hunter discretion, based upon personal knowledge, is critical. Anyone going on a Lion safari should be prepared upfront to go home without.

Take note of fairgame's comment about hunting Lion early in the season. Andrew knows of what he speaks. If there are 3-4 Lion tags for a given area, hunting late season will likely mean that 2-3 Lion have already been taken, thus diminishing your chances by 66-75%.

Just say NO to young Lions!

Bwana - To answer your question. IMO, some of both, and your pictures tell the story. Does an occasionally good maned lion come from the Selous, absolutely! Would I ever hunt there for a good maned lion, NOPE!!!

But some of those pics of baby lions are pretty sad!

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
I can understand the conservation side of taking an old Lion but one must remember what we are doing this for.
On my first buffalo Safari I passed up an old Duggerboy that we stumbled upon as he lay in the shade of a sand river. I was keen for more Buff hunting and ended up taking a less mature bull (no baby though) after a few more hunting days and experiences.
I for one hunt more for the experience than the end trophy. In fact I'm so over all the troubles with trophies that a lot of mine now adorn the walls of hunting camp.
Make it law or rule to take only mature animals but don't forget what the big picture is.

Oz,
We cannot compare hunting regs for buffalo with those for lions. They are soo different in nature that one set of rules will not work for both. Taking a soft bossed buffalo every once in a while is not as much a problem as is taking a 3 or 4 year old lion. The big picture for the latter (and all others) is to have sustainable hunting. My "alarm call" is for the quantity of young male lions being taken every season across Africa, but specifically Tanzania. And a large number of these young cats are being hunted out of the Selous and related ecosystems simply because hunters have been made to believe that lions in these ecosystems do not have mane genetics bla bla bla!!

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
My policy is that if I cannot show you a trophy Lion over 21 days, a Lion like those I advertise then you get your money back and no hard feelings.

This is a great policy for a "one-man" show where you only have to worry about your "ethics" and decision making. Even then, the temptation for a "shoot" decision on a marginal lion on the last hour of the last day that otherwise you would have turned down will test even you

For the broader industry at large, an operator may have more than a dozen Phs under employ operating in various areas at the same time. Trying to ensure that all of them apply the exact same decision process under a variety of circumstances makes it practically un-maneageable. It becomes even harder to implement a "standard practice" when the Phs are NOT employed but on a freelance basis as most are.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
I believe your policy is as it should be on any DG hunt, ie; no animal, no pay. It really is not difficult to find shootable DG animals that are mature. If the client chooses not to shoot a mature animal, then it's on him. Leopard is a possible exception as sometimes you know they are there but cannot get 'em onto bait.

Are you talking of Trophy Fees or hunting/safari fees? The former are only paid after an animal is taken or W&L.

To suggest one should refund the hunting/safari fees is wrong IMO. And how do you get the PH/operator and client to agree that the latter was "shown" trophy representatives of the species sought? There will be a lot more misunderstandings and squabbles that will turn ugly!

Guys are always selling lion hunts where there are no lions, or an extremely unlikely possibility of seeing a lion or killing a lion, re-selling an unfilled lion on quota over and over again because the lion doesn't get killed.

And you wonder why the unsuspecting client wants to shoot any lion, old or young, he happens upon.

Tanz cuts up areas and leaved the quota the same in all the new areas. More lions on quota, more gov't trophy fees, more PH fees, more money, more money, more money, fewer lions.

Quit shooting young lions. The lion hunt becomes grossly expensive only for the multi-millionaires. Otherwise shoot them cubs.

I am adding a few more pictures of good maned Selous lions. These are all recent pics. The one titled "Al" (3rd pic) is of a very old cat which could explain the already scruffy mane!

















And a better picture of "Woody" already posted in the first post.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bwanamich:
I am also starting to believe that what we are seeing today might be the result of too high an offtake which has left the mane "genetic bank" quite depleted. One thing appears quite apparent, and that is it was definetely easier to find good maned lions 15 - 20 years ago!

The above is exactly what the problem is. NOT AGE. You Tanzanians allowed 4 to 5 lions PER BLOCK on quota for very many years - and shot them all when you could.

No wonder all those pics of Luke and the maned lions show a young Luke - ask him to post a few of the lions they have taken in the last 10 years. And he is one of the good guys...

By the way bwanamich, how many blocks do you (TGT) hunt in the Selous??

Don't the lions in South Africa have names too?

Guys,

an interesting book to read is "Ghosts of Tsavo" by Phillip Caputo.

later,

quote:

Originally posted by JTHunt:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bwanamich:
I am also starting to believe that what we are seeing today might be the result of too high an offtake which has left the mane "genetic bank" quite depleted. One thing appears quite apparent, and that is it was definetely easier to find good maned lions 15 - 20 years ago!

The above is exactly what the problem is. NOT AGE. You Tanzanians allowed 4 to 5 lions PER BLOCK on quota for very many years - and shot them all when you could.

No wonder all those pics of Luke and the maned lions show a young Luke - ask him to post a few of the lions they have taken in the last 10 years. And he is one of the good guys...

By the way bwanamich, how many blocks do you (TGT) hunt in the Selous??

In Zambia the quotas are set between the wildlife department and in conjunction with the operator. Last year the quota was reduced and those who had requested an increase were denied.

We feel we have it right and we are shooting big hairy Lions with monotonous frequency.

The Tanzanian operators do have the option to reduce their quotas if they feel they are not sustainable. I applaud those who implemented the six year policy however many hunters bore the brunt of this decision and went home empty handed. It is these sportsmen who support our industry and I feel that some compensation was in order if we are to enforce such stringent policies.

When I took on Munyamadzi in the Luangwa I was unsure of the quality of Lion and I was not willing to risk my reputation by selling what I did not have. Hence the money back guarantee. I turned down two Lions, one was of age but lacked a full mane and it was not what my client wanted, and it was not what I was selling. The safari was otherwise successful and the hunter took a host of very fine animals including Leopard of which he paid for. The second client came in with the option to upgrade and shot a good Lion and I recovered my losses.

The difference I suppose is that my majority shareholders had given me card blanche to make this decision. The threat to fire me as the resident PH if I was to take an immature animal was also was a consideration.