quote:

Originally posted by JTHunt:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bwanamich:
I am also starting to believe that what we are seeing today might be the result of too high an offtake which has left the mane "genetic bank" quite depleted. One thing appears quite apparent, and that is it was definetely easier to find good maned lions 15 - 20 years ago!

The above is exactly what the problem is. NOT AGE. You Tanzanians allowed 4 to 5 lions PER BLOCK on quota for very many years - and shot them all when you could.

No wonder all those pics of Luke and the maned lions show a young Luke - ask him to post a few of the lions they have taken in the last 10 years. And he is one of the good guys...

By the way bwanamich, how many blocks do you (TGT) hunt in the Selous??

HI John,

I believe you hunt TZ as well? If so, do you not know that the reason for the 4-5 lions (some areas even 6 or 8!!) stemmed form the early 80's when there were far fewer - and consequently far larger - blocks than what we have today? And as the WD went about sub-dividing and creating new blocks, so they just issued 5 lions to each one! Their motivation? Revenue! The more lions they sold and hunters shot, the more revenue they earned. That motivation is still the driving force today though there seems to be some change on the horizon with the new Regs as they will have to reduce lion quota if they are enforcing a 6 year minimum.

The more disturbing fact is that historically, operators have been loathed to voluntarily request the Wildlife Division to reduce their lion quota, because that allows them to sell 21 day hunts which translates into revenue for them. The result is what you (I think) are eluding to and that is, too many lions have been shot. The stats, however, show a different story as highlighted again recently by JJ's response to CP article on the other thread. a sub 2 % total off-take average for lions over the last couple of decades should not be something to worry about, right?

But then you state that age IS NOT the problem!! I respectfully disagree. When hunters could not find an old good maned male lion they ended up shooting young males. Most of these, I dare say, in their prime and in prides. So a possible collapse of lion pride dynamics resulted around the Selous which is historically the most hunted ecosystem in Tz.

As for your question on how many blocks TGT hunts in the Selous, the answer is zero. We gave up the Selous back in 2002. but did prior to 2002. And i have been personally circling in and around the Selous since 1993!

Lastly, most of the lion pics with good manes I posted are from the Selous over the last 3-5 years so not too long ago at all!

As an "fun" exercise, does any one want to guess the ages of the lions (1,2,3,4 and 6)from the second batch of pics posted above?

I will have a guess and I would probably take all of these apart No.2 and would need to see more of him. He looks a bit clean cut to be more than 5 years. Number 4 would be a difficult call if you were using the six year rule as his teeth are still quite pointed. Again would be nice to see more pictures. Here you go:

1. = 7 plus
2. = 4-5
3. = 8 plus and is probably the oldest, could be 9 plus
4. = 5-6
6. = 6 plus

Fairgame,
Are you using the nose pigmentation to age them?

It's not fair when you go first as that sets the "benchmark" for others to follow.

Anyway, so that you all know, only lion No 6 has an approximate birth date and the picture was taken aroun 2006/7. The others do not have a known birth age, just an approximated age from the researches studying them!

These photos are form the photo blocks in the selous where "only" 11 PRIDE males have been identified holding something like 7 prides! I find this astonishing considering the size of the area in question. The largest coalition is of 5 males but the interesting fact is that a coalition of just 2 males is dominating up to 5 prides!

Not just the nose but more the teeth when they are shown, sometimes the color of their skin and the overall facial appearance. Heavy scars is usually a sign of maturity as so is the darkness of the back leg. Sagging spine, blunt nose etc etc

Like I say I would need to see more of these Lion to better guess age.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:

These photos are form the photo blocks in the selous where "only" 11 PRIDE males have been identified holding something like 7 prides! I find this astonishing considering the size of the area in question. The largest coalition is of 5 males but the interesting fact is that a coalition of just 2 males is dominating up to 5 prides!

slight correction needed ( i was recalling from memory and subsequently checked my notes).

11 males resident at 9 prides. The 2 males are dominating 6 prides!

On my hunt this season we viewed some trail cam pictures in the field but was also lucky that the Reserve Ecologist was in camp that night so I showed him the picture on laptop with which it took him all but a second to say that this one was well over six years of age.
He said that once you view him with the Bino's you will see his scars and noted the going back of the Mane and lack Mohawk.
Although its hard to see without the ability to increase picture size, what would your age estimation be on this cat?

I cannot estimate from this picture, only guess........ which is worthless, IMO.

Perhaps a lion the ecologist knew already and he identified as the same from the pic and description of where he was spotted by you, etc,etc??

Just from what I see of the body, I would not have used the words "well over 6".

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
As an "fun" exercise, does any one want to guess the ages of the lions (1,2,3,4 and 6)from the second batch of pics posted above?

Bwana - We have been through this exercise before. Unless these lions were ALL raised in captivity from a cub, and maybe they were, I don't know? Whomever claims they KNOW their age is guessing, just like the rest of us!

Amazing and daunting animals, lions.

I can't imagine a world where we could not hunt them, on a fair chase basis and in the wild, or worse, where they did not roam and dominate the wild places at all.

I have fallen asleep at night, while they roared around us, in twos and threes, closing around us, and very close at hand.

My rifle was close at hand, too. False comfort though it was.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
Amazing and daunting animals, lions.

I can't imagine a world where we could not hunt them, on a fair chase basis and in the wild, or worse, where they did not roam and dominate the wild places at all.

Well said Mike!!

quote:

So one could easily argue that male lions in the Selous ecosystem do have good mane development potential....... if allowed to reach maturity and the "Sales pitch BS" used by PHs and booking agents to mislead prospective clients' expectations so that they are happy with their "maneless" trophy is a shame really.

Let the discussion begin!

Mich,

I see NO discussion to have. You have hit the nail squarely on the head!

quote:

Bwanamich,
Do you know this guy...he looks familiar.

1. 6
2.3
3.8-9
4.5
5.6
6.7-8

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
As an "fun" exercise, does any one want to guess the ages of the lions (1,2,3,4 and 6)from the second batch of pics posted above?