Please go to...

http://forums.accuratereloadin...1002751/m/7631045281

...and read.

Ouch

I knew this was coming but never dreamed it would happen this fast.

Luckily I was able to take my first Lion hunt this fall.

Now it might also be my last.

This will be a huge topic at DSC and SCI. I just forwarded to my good friend who has a hunt booked with TGT next summer. Democraps strike again..

Please try and move the comentary to the Conservation forum.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
This will be a huge topic at DSC and SCI. I just forwarded to my good friend who has a hunt booked with TGT next summer. Democraps strike again..

Jorge,
Rest assured that TGTS is on top of the matter. They work very closely with the LCTF. George Hartley was copied on that e-mail I posted.

Lane - George sent it to me this morning! I just read it. Shameful, but NOT surprising at all.

I'll go to the other thread.

Cross L, Todd Williams and anyone else with a lion trophy awaiting import -

I would encourage you to get your lion home ASAP. Pay extra to move it to the front of the line if necessary. There is no reason to believe the USF&W will be any more accommodating to the lion than they have been to the legally hunted polar bear. I anticipate they will stop all imports the day the ESA is finalized.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
Cross L, Todd Williams and anyone else with a lion trophy awaiting import -

I would encourage you to get your lion home ASAP. Pay extra to move it to the front of the line if necessary. There is no reason to believe the USF&W will be any more accommodating to the lion than they have been to the legally hunted polar bear. I anticipate they will stop all imports the day the ESA is finalized.

e-mail already sent to RSA

Mike,

I think you are correct. I'll be contacting Buzz and Myles ASAP. I know they were already working to get it out quickly but this is certainly cause for expediting to the max extent possible.

If they succeed, I would hate to be an outfitter in TZ trying to sell those high dollar hunts.

African lions could end up on US endangered species list

Martin Meissner / AP

Trophy lions include this stuffed specimen at an international hunting exposition in Dortmund, Germany, in 2011.
By Miguel Llanos, NBC News

If wildlife activists have their way, U.S. hunters trekking to Africa soon won't be able to bring back any lion skins or skulls as trophies.

Follow @NBCNewsWorld

Acting on a petition by those activists, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service on Tuesday said it will study whether the species warrants protection under the Endangered Species Act.

Born Free USA, one of the petition groups, called the review "the necessary first step toward ensuring a chance at survival for this beleaguered species."

African lion populations have seen "a substantial decline" over the past two decades and are estimated to be around 32,000, according to the International Union for Conservation of Nature, which monitors species numbers globally.
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The threats include not only trophy hunters, but loss of habitat, humans eating lion meat, and commercial sale of their body parts, said Adam Roberts, executive vice president of Born Free USA.

As humans move into lion habitat, he added, that increases "retaliatory killings, including by gruesome poisoning," of lions that go after livestock.

The Fish and Wildlife Service began a 60-day period to receive public and expert comment on whether to list the species. The Asian lion was listed as endangered in 1970.
Live Poll
Q: Should the US list African lions as endangered?
Yes No

View results

In their petition, the activists cited U.S. trade figures showing that more than 5,600 wild Africa lions were hunted and then exported as trophies between 1999 and 2008, with 64 percent of those trophies being imported into the U.S.

Trophy hunters counter that while their hobby is regulated, licensed and recorded, the slaughter of lions by locals protecting livestock is rampant and largely uncontrolled.

Many African nations with lion populations they consider healthy allow trophy hunting as a way to bring in revenue for locals as well as to help fund wildlife programs.

The U.S. has listed non-native animals before since the act is meant to ensure the U.S. citizens "do not contribute to the further decline of that species in its native habitat," the Fish and Wildlife Service said in its announcement.

Here is some more info as per the USFW website:

http://us.vocuspr.com/Newsroom...ssRelease&Cache=True

You guys might want to cast a vote in the NBC poll about listing lions. It can be found here: http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_new...ed-species-list?lite

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
If they succeed, I would hate to be an outfitter in TZ trying to sell those high dollar hunts.

It will still be legal to hunt them, won't it? Just can't ship to the US. More reason to have a house somewhere outside the US.

This is such a crock of crap. We U.S. hunters get penalized while everyone else continues to hunt them, take trophies, taxidermy them and display them in their homes throughout the world. Just like Cheetah, Black Faced Impala, Polar Bear, Brown Hyena. . . .a real joke.

Interesting this comes out right after the election.

The sad part is USFW have been a law unto themselves for a long time.

They decide what is and what is not on CITES, with complete disregard to the International Convention.

This also has a very bad effect on the US taxidermy industry, as many people who used to have their treophies done in the US are going to be looking somewhere else.

quote:

Originally posted by SBT:
You guys might want to cast a vote in the NBC poll about listing lions. It can be found here: http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_new...ed-species-list?lite

So far 85% voted for the ban so we need your vote.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
The sad part is USFW have been a law unto themselves for a long time.

They decide what is and what is not on CITES, with complete disregard to the International Convention.

This also has a very bad effect on the US taxidermy industry, as many people who used to have their treophies done in the US are going to be looking somewhere else.

Taxidermist should now be looking at synthetic mounts that simulate the clients trophies?

quote:

Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:
This is such a crock of crap. We U.S. hunters get penalized while everyone else continues to hunt them, take trophies, taxidermy them and display them in their homes throughout the world. Just like Cheetah, Black Faced Impala, Polar Bear, Brown Hyena. . . .a real joke.

I sent the link to this thread to my wife (little miss on here) from work and she said something to me later that I never thought I would hear from her lips and we have been together a long long time.

"Maybe it's time to decide where we want to be expats after we retire."

I have also contacted attorney Anna Seidman of the SCI litigation department today regarding this development and she is well aware of it. She assured me that they are gearing up to fight this one as well. If you have ever attended the Wildlife Seminars held for continuing legal education credit at the SCI Convention, you will know that SCI is actively engaged in litigation dealing with nearly every issue that faces American and international hunters, and particularly those dealing with the USFWS.

quote:

So far 85% voted for the ban so we need your vote.

Good Luck - You'll need it ... in large doses !!

All set in motion by "activists" (Antis) yet so many people on this forum openly shun their capabilities/powers.

If this example of their strength isn't sufficient I don't know what else is required.

quote:

Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:
I have also contacted attorney Anna Seidman of the SCI litigation department today regarding this development and she is well aware of it. She assured me that they are gearing up to fight this one as well. If you have ever attended the Wildlife Seminars held for continuing legal education credit at the SCI Convention, you will know that SCI is actively engaged in litigation dealing with nearly every issue that faces American and international hunters, and particularly those dealing with the USFWS.

UEG - I don't doubt your claim, or SCI's good intentions. But after speaking with a high-ranking SCI official, and taking part in the Lion Symposium at SCI this past Jaunary - one that was invite only, and included several scientists (Packer was there) a few high-profile PH's, conservation leaders, and high ranking SCI officials/past presidents too. I was SHOCKED at their lack of knowledge/experience in the matter. Matter of fact, they just sat there like bumps on a log!!! They had nothing to contribute, cause they knew nothing!

If SCI wants to help win this battle, they need to en-list the help of "KNOWLEDGABLE/EXPERIENCED" people. Not the same good ole boys club, I won the Weatherby award so I know more than you, blah, blah, blah. JMO.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
If they succeed, I would hate to be an outfitter in TZ trying to sell those high dollar hunts.

It will still be legal to hunt them, won't it? Just can't ship to the US. More reason to have a house somewhere outside the US.

Maybe...maybe not.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:
I have also contacted attorney Anna Seidman of the SCI litigation department today regarding this development and she is well aware of it. She assured me that they are gearing up to fight this one as well. If you have ever attended the Wildlife Seminars held for continuing legal education credit at the SCI Convention, you will know that SCI is actively engaged in litigation dealing with nearly every issue that faces American and international hunters, and particularly those dealing with the USFWS.

UEG - I don't doubt your claim, or SCI's good intentions. But after speaking with a high-ranking SCI official, and taking part in the Lion Symposium at SCI this past Jaunary - one that was invite only, and included several scientists (Packer was there) a few high-profile PH's, conservation leaders, and high ranking SCI officials/past presidents too. I was SHOCKED at their lack of knowledge/experience in the matter. Matter of fact, they just sat there like bumps on a log!!! They had nothing to contribute, cause they knew nothing!

If SCI wants to help win this battle, they need to en-list the help of "KNOWLEDGABLE/EXPERIENCED" people. Not the same good ole boys club, I won the Weatherby award so I know more than you, blah, blah, blah. JMO.

Thank you Aaron!

At this point the very least that EVERY ONE OF US CAN DO IS - PLEASE DONATE TO JOHN JACKSON'S "CONSERVATION FORCE", PLEASE!!!

He'll lead the charge against the up-listing, and will likely have the best/most up-to-date info/facts/figures.

Remember, this isn't just about the lion - its about the future of all of Africa's wildlife!!

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

Remember, this isn't just about the lion - its about the future of all of Africa's wildlife!!

And that is the overriding point.

Hey Aaron: Thanks for your input. I don't know anything about the lion symposium or who attended, and not sure if anyone from SCI's legal department was there or not. All I can represent to you is that Anna Seidman who is General Counsel for SCI and who is involved with a myriad of litigation on behalf of SCI, including USFWS listing, delisting or re-listing issues, has assured me that they are well aware of the recent USFWS proposal on the lion and will be fighting it. Let's hope that they are actively involved as she stated. I am sure that it is going to be one of the major topics at the upcoming CLE seminar on Wildlife Law in January. Also, John Jackson, another attorney and former President of SCI will hopefully be fighting it as well. John is a regular attender at the Wildlife Law Seminar and I am sure he will update us as well at that time.

quote:

Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:
Hey Aaron: Thanks for your input. I don't know anything about the lion symposium or who attended, and not sure if anyone from SCI's legal department was there or not. All I can represent to you is that Anna Seidman who is General Counsel for SCI and who is involved with a myriad of litigation on behalf of SCI, including USFWS listing, delisting or re-listing issues, has assured me that they are well aware of the recent USFWS proposal on the lion and will be fighting it. Let's hope that they are actively involved as she stated. I am sure that it is going to be one of the major topics at the upcoming CLE seminar on Wildlife Law in January. Also, John Jackson, another attorney and former President of SCI will hopefully be fighting it as well. John is a regular attender at the Wildlife Law Seminar and I am sure he will update us as well at that time.

Well, its time they both put their differences aside - and work soley on behalf of the lion/all African Wildlife. Hopefully they can do so.

I hope so too. I have a lioness hunt lined up in the Bubye Conservancy in 2014. Looking at another (alternate) buffalo hunt there just in case the lion issue goes South on all of us.

I too have a hunt for lioness in the Bubye for 2014.It felt like I had the wind knocked out of me when I read that.Not sure what I am going to do, if we wait til this thing is finalized it may be to late to find a nother plan.Who are you going to hunt with and what time of year? I will be with John Sharp in Aug.

I had lengthy conversation with the contact person at USFW regarding this issue. I have copied her contact info below in case anyone would like to reach out to her.

Janine Van Norman
Chief, Branch of Foreign Species
Endangered Species Program
U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service
4401 N. Fairfax Drive, Room 412A
Arlington, VA 22203
(703) 358-2370 (work)
(703) 358-1735 (fax)
Janine_VanNorman@fws.gov

My hunt is with Shaun Buffee in June of 2014, and he and I have explored contingency plans the last couple of days (i.e. buffalo/non trophy elephant)just in case the lion issue goes south. I suggest that you do the same with John Sharp. The Bubye is rich in plains game, buffalo, leopard, etc. If you are intent on hunting lion and the lion is re-listed as endangered, you won't be hunting lion anywhere in the world with anyone and bringing it back into the States.

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by SBT:
You guys might want to cast a vote in the NBC poll about listing lions. It can be found here: http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_new...ed-species-list?lite


So far 85% voted for the ban so we need your vote.

We just need to be clear here, this is an NBC poll and will have absolutely no bearing on the USFWS decision. Some people that have contacted me believe that the issue is somehow voted on.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

It will still be legal to hunt them, won't it? Just can't ship to the US. More reason to have a house somewhere outside the US.

100% true and i have been saying this for years. For what some guys spend on a single safari (or often much less), they could buy a little house and some acreage north of the US border to house their Polar Bear, Cheetah, Wood Bison, Walrus, and apparently their Lion.

Listing document

http://www.regulations.gov/#!d...R9-ES-2012-0025-0001


Please post your comments. Born free has a social media campaign to the public to post...

http://www.regulations.gov/#!s...R9-ES-2012-0025-0001


Pass it around serioualy.

Any body that is a member of SCI or DSC...I would encourage to send them a message that you would like to see them adopt this Definition of a Huntable Male Lion.

The adoption of this defintion by these two orgs will go a long way to buying us some lobbying power with the USF&W.