I recently lost my best friend and African hunting partner to a sudden death. We had booked and paid for two 1x1 big game safaries for 21 days in the Rungua and Selous. The Ph incisted all monies had to be paid by March 1, '07. I felt that was beeing way too pushy but did the deal anyway. I have been in contact with my booking agent to see what options could be exercised at this time with these turn of events. He says the safari is a go and that my wife can shoot the safari instead of my parter. That is all well and good, however, I am not so sure we can pay the trophy fees for double animals. Since all of the trophies would be comming to my house anyway it seems little sense to have two lions, two leopards, two elephants etc comming all at once. It is mind boggeling at best. I asked if we could defer one of the safaries until next year so we could plan an alternative hunt, perhaps to include the Massai area. NO GO! When my wife travels with me on these hunts, she also shoots some of my game if possible, and also helps with taking pictures. If she is hunting 1x1 then that won't work out at all. The whole situations is amuck. I don't know what options I should exercise at this time.

The booking agent suggested selling one hunt at a reduced rate, $20,000. That is a loss of better than 50%. The observer rate for my wife would be about $5,000.00 so if we pay that then essentially there is a $56,000.00 hunt for $15,000.00. That seems really wrong. For 15K we should just do the hunt. I just don't know.

Very sorry for the mess your in. At first glance it seems the outfitter is being a bit inflexible considering the circumstances. I sure the experienced guys on this site will come up with some good ideas. It might be worth posting the details of the planned hunt(who,what when,and where). You might find someone here(myself included) who might be interested. Best of luck. I suggest you cut your best deal and go on your hunt!

I'm sorry for the loss of your best friend.

It seems unreasonable for the PH to not be willing to defer your hunt. What month is it due to start? Even the most stubborn outfitters/ph's would defer the hunt to another year charging a nominal "penalty" for loss of income on a short notice cancellation.

Have you tried to ask your agent to re-sell your friends' hunt on short notice offering different dates from yours if that works so you don't end up sharing camp with some stranger, etc.?

I think in a situation where a booked client has passed away, some consolation on the part of the outfitter/ph is due. That is if they want repeat business...

Leonard...I'm truly sorry for the loss of your friend, please accept my condolences.

Maybe Tom could go...if you got hurt, he could give you sympathy till you could see a real Doctor!..course he might get lost!..

Sorry for the loss of your friend.

I would post all the details here on AR and see if any of the members are interested.

lb404, I too am sorry to hear of the loss of your friend. It is interesting that the booking agent isn't being more helpful. This forum seems to be constantly being told (by booking agents) that the use of a booking agent offers a significant level of "protection", in just this kind of situation. Did you or your friend have any kind of trip insurance. Would that not have helped? In any case, I would suggest posting hunt details here. You might get a lot of tire kickers, but, should save you money in the long run. I might be interested myself!
Peter.

Sorry about the loss of your friend.

Sorry for your loss. I'd be lost without my hunting buddy - for sure.

Please post the names of the booking agent and PH/Outfitter. I want to stay clear of those operators!

If I were in your shoes, I doubt I could enjoy the hunt knowing I would sharing the experience with a bunch of assholes. It is a conundrum indeed! Whatever you do, make sure it's a course that least rewards those guys.

Hard to believe that the agent will not help you a little more with this...I would try to sell the other half of the hunt. If it is a quality area you should not have any problem finding someone to hunt with you. Good luck. I would also like to know who your and PH agent is. Without knowing all the details I hate to pass judgment however it sounds like you may want to spend your money someplace else in the future.

I surmise that the may be operator is Harpreet Brar. who owns Rungwa Game Safaris.

I don't have a magic suggestion for what to do with the second safari, but I would definitely try to go with a hunter/companion set-up for you and your wife rather than let her use the second full bag. Hearing that the two of you enjoy hunting together and sharing the experiences that come along the way, keeping the two 1x1 options and sending her out on her own during the day to hunt without you just misses the point of taking your wife with you on your trip. Even a 2x1 safari is difficult as you won't have the time to hunt 2 full bags while hunting together, not to mention potentially having double the trophies in your house once you get home.
I took my college-aged son with me on our first 21-day hunt two years ago (our 2nd will be next year) and had to consider all of these options. Two people from the same household generally will find a hunter/companion set-up more fun, more efficient, and more affordable.
I would suggest that your friend's widow consider letting your booking agent sell the extra hunt for her at a discount and that you and your wife enjoy a great hunt together while dedicating the experience to the memory of your lost friend and hunting buddy.
That said, if your agent can't find a new buyer and you can't find a new hunter to go with you, wouldn't the responsibility of absorbing the extra cost fall to your friend's estate?

Leonard,
Wish I had the funds to go with you! It would be great for Peggy and I to share a campfire with you and your wife!

Leonard,

I assume you have a safari contract of some kind? - you might like to check it to see what the stated cancellation policy says......

Are you losing any money here?
I understand your friend passed and was going with you and i assume your wife was going as an observer. Did you pay for your friends hunt? In not you are really not losing out so I would think anything you were to get for the hunt would be better than nothing. Would you keep the money yourself? or return it to his family?

lb404,

Sorry to hear about your friend. Like others have stated, it is discouraging that the booking agent/outfitter are not being more helpful/understanding. As I write this, I was supposed to be in Zimbabwe chasing buffalo and sable with Myles McCallum. Unfortunately, I broke my ankle on the 25th (7 days before the safari) and had to cancel. Myles and Buzz have been nothing but understanding, cooperative, and concerned for my recovery. We have already rebooked for November of this year. Truly a classy. classy straight up couple of guys.

Again, sorry about your loss. Please post the name of the booking agent and outfitter so that we can add these names to those that we should we weary of.

I left out the particulars of the hunt so as not to confuse the issue. This hunt is in mid august. The hunts are paid for. I have arranged all of our previous hunts for the two of us and Steve wanted to do the leg work on this hunt himself. I don't know if trip insurance was taken out as I gave the money to Steve for the trip. I do not have a contract in my hand yet. It might be at Steves house, but I don't think so. What do you do when it is your best friend? All things pertinent to the trip would be tied up with the courts as I do not think anything can be done before August. I was surprised that there was a great deal if inflexability due to the circumstances, but the money had been paid and the trip will go on I guess. The booking agent did offer to sell the trip for us but looking at the situation, selling a 56K trip for 21 days full bag for 20K seemed foolish especially when I would have to pay about 6K+ for my wife to accompany me netting a premium hunt for 15K. The fear I have is that my wife might not be up to tackeling some of the real dangerous stuff right now. Hell I might not be either but I am game for it. Part of the experience is being there together and sharing the experience. I really do not know what to do at this time. The problem is that the clock is ticking and the closer we get the harder it is to find air tickets to go. We have our tickets but they tell me the flights at that time are already fully booked. Hell I don't know what to do.

I don't want to make anyone out in a bad light. This is something that was not even contemplated. How can you prepare for such a bad turn of events?

Why not ask the outfitter and/or agent to let you have a copy of the signed safari agreement and cancellation policy and go from there?

I also am very sorry for your loss. My dad was to accompany me on my first hunt in Africa and died suddenly beforehand. As it turned out, there was enough time that a friend was able to go with me instead, so things worked out better than they might have.
I, too, would like to know the name of the outfitter. I understand that "business is business" but folks in the hunting industry live by word-of-mouth references. To treat you like this strikes me as not only unkind, but bad business as well.

My condolences for sure. It might be helpful to post your hunt information here. Many would like to see the details.

So you were not taking your wife to begin with or not, it sounded like you were taking her to take picts and what not your friend could not have done it if its a 1 on 1. So you were gonna pay that extra 6k regardless, where does you getting your buddies money to use towards your wife going come into play here? Am I missing something here?

Pauly, If you read the initial opening, the suggestion of the booking agent was for me to take my wife as was originally planned, and a solution of the problem of no refund or a change of dates option was to let my wife shoot Steves bag. This was not my idea! This is one of the options offered to us. He was my friend and I would shoot his bag as his family has asked me to do. The problem is I have two hunts during the same time, two sets of similar trophies to shoot at the same time, and being a rather expensive enterprise to begin with, having double fees for travel, air charter, and trophy fees is a bit daunting. I am not taking one bit from he or his family. We have already discussed at length about one of his girls comming in his place. They are not interested! This is his dream not theirs. Steve had no wife.

My point was, if absolutely necessary, I will have my wife hunt my safari and I will hunt Steves. It is not what I want to do now, but pissing away a huge chunk of cash seems stupid and would have him roiling.

I will call the agent and see if any contracts were written. This man knows Steve and I and our word is our bond without question. The essence of the problem is I let Steve make the arrangements and I do not have anything in writing yet myself. This is a real muck up, I should have done it myself!

now i understand I DID read the initial you never stated in the original post his family said you could have his half of the hunt. Simply start trying to sell it on your own than, try here and 24 hour camp fire get what you can.

Leonard

Sorry to hear about you problem. Wish I could come up with money and go with you. Two old fat guys in Africa. I can just see us now. Soaking our feet.

Gar

lb404, I'm sorry to hear about your good friend, my condolences to you and his family. As for your hunt I am puzzled why the Outfitter isn't cutting you a lot of slack or your agent isn't going to bat for you, especially for the duration and price of the hunt. Take Shakari's advice and get a contract ASAP. I wouldn't think your friend would have sent that much money without one. Find out for your own piece of mind. If you can't get it refunded for your friends family, please email me the details and I'll see what I can do to help you sell it. I'm leaving for Africa in three weeks and won't return for 3 weeks so if I can help just let me know soon. David

My most sincere condolences for the loss of your hunting buddy. Good folks are hard to lose.

Egad! Post the company information so that the rest of us can avoid this fella. He seems not very understanding.

I would hate to see you "lose" that much money on the second hunter reservation. Seems a waste for sure. You might think about taking a youngster whose life might be changed by the experience ... or you might thing about taking someone who can help with the costs but could never afford the full bag costs. Either way, it would be the gift of a lifetime. You might very well find another hunting buddy (a very grateful one)!

404- Condolences to you and yours. I would not sweat the flight stuff. You or whoever might be going along should be able to get seats; they will be a bit more expensive. They seem to release seats up to 30 days out. Maybe you will be able to think of someone who you could include on this hunt and craft a way to make it work. It seems to me your agent needs to get to work.

Once again, did you pay for both halves of the hunt or not?

If your friend paid for his own hunt then YOU are not going to be out anything if his hunt isn't used, his ESTATE is.

Assuming he paid for his own hunt, any partial or full refund, or proceeds from subletting the contract, should go to his estate, not to you.

If, on the other hand, YOU paid for both halves, then you probably should start looking for a partner to take it, probably at a discount, to cut your financial loss. And name the outfitter, because he's an asshole.

Thanks for the input. I will try to work out the situation with the stateside agent. If nothing comes of it then I will let you know. How much sway does he have with a PH in Africa that he represents? Can he alter the hunt particulars to accommodate such situations? If the PH doesn't want to offer a refund, then that is the end of it RIGHT??

I really don't think the agent is being unreasonable, really, I think that there are only a few options that would satisfy all of the parties in the plan and that starts with the PH. If he is unwilling to alter dates or years then what are the options for him or me or the estate? I would rather use the dates than leave them on the table. Then only the PH and the Agent derive any benefit. I wouldn't want that, and his family doesn't either. I probably should have kept it to myself cause it seems to be getting twisted .

Dear 404,

Please accept my condolences. I hope things work out in the best possible way for you and your friend's family.

Whatever happens I'm sure you friend will be with you around the campfire...

All the best;
Brett

404,
A poster rumoured the name of the ph/outfitter as Harpreet Brar of Rungwa Safaris.

If that is not the PH/outfitter you are dealing with it would be proper to state that and dispell the rumors.

Good luck!

Does naming names and pointing fingers really accomplish anything? All I want to know is if this is the standard way of dealing with a situation like this? I thought that the reason to book with an agent was to prevent unreasonable treatment from guys in Africa you might only see once in every few years.

lb404,
I agree with you in part. However, if a name was mentioned by another poster and it WAS NOT the correct name, then the least I would do is state so.

I intensly dislike these trial by internet things that happen from time to time, and don't usually get involved, (I like to try to shed light rather than heat on the forums) but Mich is quite right. If it was the company suggested, you might like to take a look at their cancellation policy which is on their website..... if it isn't them, I feel it's only fair that you say it isn't.....

Going on our own cancellation policy, you'd have got at least half of the safari cost back and under these particular circumstances, almost certainly a great deal more.....

However, I think it's important to try to ensure we get our wording right. It won't be anything to do with the PH, so no-one should lay the blame at his door! The decision and blame (if there is any) will either lie with the concession holder or the agent..... whichever had the contract with the client. You also have to bear in mind the reason that safari companies etc have a cancellation policy in the first place. They will have allocated their limited quota of key species to the clients who booked - and when that safari is cancelled at short (ish) notice, it means they probably won't be able to resell that quota, or at least, not at full price. A lot of people seem to forget that what is sport for the client is what pays the bills for the outfitter/agent etc, so that also has to be taken into consideration.

But Leonard, y' know, whilst I sincerely don't mean to cause offense, it strikes me that you don't have an awful lot of good luck on your safaris and if you don't mind my saying so, perhaps you ought to re-read some of your own posts and ask yourself if there's a reason there somewhere.....

quote:

Originally posted by lb404:
Pauly, If you read the initial opening, the suggestion of the booking agent was for me to take my wife as was originally planned, and a solution of the problem of no refund or a change of dates option was to let my wife shoot Steves bag. This was not my idea! This is one of the options offered to us. He was my friend and I would shoot his bag as his family has asked me to do. The problem is I have two hunts during the same time, two sets of similar trophies to shoot at the same time, and being a rather expensive enterprise to begin with, having double fees for travel, air charter, and trophy fees is a bit daunting. I am not taking one bit from he or his family. We have already discussed at length about one of his girls comming in his place. They are not interested! This is his dream not theirs. Steve had no wife.

My point was, if absolutely necessary, I will have my wife hunt my safari and I will hunt Steves. It is not what I want to do now, but pissing away a huge chunk of cash seems stupid and would have him roiling.

I will call the agent and see if any contracts were written. This man knows Steve and I and our word is our bond without question. The essence of the problem is I let Steve make the arrangements and I do not have anything in writing yet myself. This is a real muck up, I should have done it myself!

Upon reading more about your situation, it seems you really don't have much of a problem. If anything, it seems you are seeing the opportunity to hunt twice as much as originally planned for only a nominal increase in cost and are wondering whether or not it is worth it.
The financial loss as a result of your friend's death is soley the responsibility of his estate; you are simply trying to determine if it is worth it to take advantage of what his estate might abandon. Right?

While I am sorry you lost your friend, I have to agree with Spring. You haven't lost, your friend's estate has. If they didn't buy trip cancellation insurance, shame on them. If you didn't buy it shame on you.

The safari business is just that a business. The safari companies have cost that they incur even if the clients don't show up. It seems a bit unreasonable to expect them to foot these costs when the issue is not of their making nor in any way under their control.

I would be shocked if their policy allowed rebooking unless the cancelation was a very long time in advance.

Business is business.

quote:

Upon reading more about your situation, it seems you really don't have much of a problem. If anything, it seems you are seeing the opportunity to hunt twice as much as originally planned for only a nominal increase in cost and are wondering whether or not it is worth it.
The financial loss as a result of your friend's death is soley the responsibility of his estate; you are simply trying to determine if it is worth it to take advantage of what his estate might abandon. Right?

Vic

Exactly. If for some reason his family really did say you could have it even if you sold it for 20000 thats plus 20000 for you and you are worried taking your wife will cost 6000,, good lord that leaves you plus 14000. You are just worried that if your wife hunts you will not be able to cover the trophy fees. You are not out anything here plain and simple.

Leonard,
I am sorry to hear about your friend.

The Safari Co. and Booking agent should give the widow a refund, at least all but the amount already spent setting up the hunt which would probably amount to the deposit.

The booking agent should return his commission..The camp will be filled by you so they loose nothing there.

At the very least they should allow you to take the hunt next year, and you pay the widow a fair compensation for the hunt.

I am sure they state no refunds, and that is solely at their descretion, but exceptions for death and sickness should be allowed for IMO. Widows and children should always be cared for.

quote:

I am sure they state no refunds, and that is solely at their descretion, but exceptions for death and sickness should be allowed for IMO. Widows and children should always be cared for

But the thing is the money is not going to a widow or a child he wants to use it toward his and his wives safari. So anything he can get is a mega bonus,,money he never had, money that will never come from his pocket.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:

Compassion,
I am sorry to hear about your friend.

Common sense
The Safari Co. and Booking agent should give the widow a refund, at least all but the amount already spent setting up the hunt which would probably amount to the deposit.

Business sense
The booking agent should return his commission..The camp will be filled by you so they loose nothing there.

Alternative choices
At the very least they should allow you to take the hunt next year, and you pay the widow a fair compensation for the hunt.

Common decency
I am sure they state no refunds, and that is solely at their descretion, but exceptions for death and sickness should be allowed for IMO. Widows and children should always be cared for.

Good post Mr Atkinson.

JCM

To address the meta-question here, about agents, their role, and their value-added.

There are two aspects to this role: his role vis-a-vis the client, and vis-a-vis the safari co. Bear in mind that the agent is, in 90% of cases, the OUTFITTER'S AGENT, not the client's agent. The outfitter has appointed him and the outfitter pays him. There may be a contract between agent and safari co. He therefore has a duty to represent the outfitter's interests. Anything he does for the client he does with a view to repeat business, word-of-mouth referrals, and of course his general reputation.

From the client's perspective, an agent ("consultant") used to be a guy who knew where to go, given a client's wishes and desires, and who took care of communications with the outfitter and answered all the client's questions. In these days of the internet, that role has, for the most part, become redundant. An hour on the internet will allow even a newbie to come up with two or three good destinations that offer what he is looking for, and as far as ongoing communication, every safari outfit has an email address. There is no longer any real need to use an agent to figure out where to go, nor to act as a communication channel, for the most part. Exceptions are where the outfitter is very small and/or is not internet-savvy and thus does not have a website, and/or to market special opportunity hunts. An agent can help you find some hunts that you would not find on your own.

What's left is the following:

1. Someone to help you select a hunt, who is less likely to oversell because he is hoping to help you on your next safari and the one after that (as we all know, there is no such thing as a "once-in-a-lifetime" safari). A good agent should have personally hunted the operators/areas he represents so he can provide realistic expectations to the client. At a minimum, he should do some research to ensure that the hunter isn't going to get the "should have been here last month" story. But an agent is, for the most part, going to sell you the hunts that pay him a commission. He is not going to recommend that you go off and book with XYZ company and kiss his commission goodbye.

2. Someone who will take your deposit, perhaps even on a credit card, and hold it in the USA if you feel that is necessary, until the hunt is over.

3. Someone who has "been there, done that" who will (or should) advise you regarding any contract you may be asked to sign, and who will help you avoid the pitfalls. An agent is NOT able to extricate you from a contract you have already signed, if you change your mind. He MAY be able to get you some leeway if he brings a lot of business to the safari co. A good agent has some clout with the outfits he represents.

4. Someone in your own legal jurisdiction whose feet you can hold to the fire if the hunt turns out to be fraudulent (just because there is a website doesn't mean the operator will show up at the airport ....). However, you can't sue the agent if you don't get a 40" buffalo, unless the contract states that you are guaranteed such a thing (and I have never seen a contract that makes such a guarantee).

5. Someone who can advise you regarding the after-hunt stuff (shipping trophies etc...the safari co.s aren't great at taking care of this aspect of the hunt...once they deliver the trophies to the taxidermist along with the paperwork, they move on).

From the outfitter's perspective, an agent plays some important roles.

1. He advertises in print and on the web. He keeps his website up-to-date (many many safari cos spend $10K on their site and then don't keep it up...and furthermore they never figure out how to get decent search-engine rankings).

2. He exhibits at shows (sometimes in lieu of, and sometimes together with the principals).

3. He works his personal contacts/mailing lists etc. just like any other salesman.

4. He facilitates the payment of deposits and in many cases he takes the deposit and wires the funds to the safari co.

Coming back to this thread, unless the agent is specifically the CLIENT's AGENT, paid by the client, one should not be too surprised that he is adhering to the safari company's explicit terms and conditions (if it's the one mentioned, they are published on the company website in very clear terms), which terms apparently require prepayment of the day rates and a deposit toward trophy fees, and (reading between the lines) futhermore state
clearly that there are no refunds under any circumstances, and further advise the client to take out cancellation insurance. If these are indeed the terms, they are harsh terms but they are deemed accepted if the client books and pays the deposit.

Having said that, all businesses have terms which they rely on when necessary...however most business people cut the customer some slack when it's merited. It seems that under these unfortunate circumstances, the safari co. could be more flexible. Yes, they have a certain quota they must sell to make a go of the season. But they could probably resell some of that quota as the season in TZ hasn't even opened yet. And it seems the clients have prepaid around $15K toward trophies by my math. As to the daily rates, the co has fixed costs that have to be recouped in a short time window (effective 3 months in TZ). However, a hefty portion of the daily rates (as the Tanz. oufitters always explain when you ask pointed questions about $2K daily rates) go to the govt. A portion goes to cover the PH's hire or salary for the second 1x1 hunter. A portion goes to pay for the food and drinks consumed by the client. These portions of the cost of providing the hunt will not be incurred by the safari co. in this case. So to keep the entire proceeds of the paid-up hunt seems a little harsh to me....the safari co is profiting by the misfortune of their client. It seems they could offer a partial refund of the daily fees, say half (which, surprise surprise, by my math comes to $20K). And in addition, at the end of the season, if they move their quota, they should be able to refund the trophy deposits (which in any case are invariably refundable in full if the animals are not in fact taken...take note 404...the safari co would really really like it if another client showed up in place of Steve so they get some action on their quota instead of having to refund any prepaid trophy fees.....)

Don't want to poke my nose too far into this mess as I don't have all the facts, don't have any relationships in TZ, and may be wrong regarding the way things work there, and in any case it's none of my business.