Most of you are too tough for me. I am a real shit, trying to steal my dead friends hunt from him and with his family's blessings. You are entirely right, I should just leave the money with the agent and PH and derive no benefit from it at all even though I asked for and was not able to get a refund or a consideration of postponeing the hunt for a year so I could give his girls the money for the hunt. Shame on me for even trying to work out a way to salvag this safari. The best thing to do is to give up both hunts that way I won't have to deal with someone else in camp hunting my friends quota. You guys saw right through me. I do deserve the shit mess I created!

Have a hugely morally superior day.
t

quote:

The booking agent suggested selling one hunt at a reduced rate, $20,000. That is a loss of better than 50%. The observer rate for my wife would be about $5,000.00 so if we pay that then essentially there is a $56,000.00 hunt for $15,000.00. That seems really wrong. For 15K we should just do the hunt. I just don't know.

Hmmmmmmmm. Where in this statement did you say you were planning on giving the money to his girls. If you're worried about giving money to his girls sell the damn thing for 20000 what the hell is the difference its better than them getting nothing. What is the big conumdrum here? You think your wife should just take the hunt because if its sold for 20000 thats to good of a deal for someone else to get, then the girls get what, a scrapbook and some pictures of your hunt?

In his first note he said "For 15K we should just do the hunt" after calculating the offer for the hunt from the agent reduced by what he would have to pay for his wife's observer fee.
Since he has now stated that he wants to "give his girls the money for the hunt," the simple solution is to buy the discounted hunt at the price he indicated was too good to pass up and then give the girls their money as he has subsequently informed us he wants to do. He'll have the great deal he recognized and the girls will receive their inheritance he said he wants them to have. The agent, the outfitter, Ib404, and the beneficiaries should all be happy.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
But Leonard, y' know, whilst I sincerely don't mean to cause offense, it strikes me that you don't have an awful lot of good luck on your safaris and if you don't mind my saying so, perhaps you ought to re-read some of your own posts and ask yourself if there's a reason there somewhere.....

----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Folks:

I know Leonard and his wife, albeit not very well, but we've talked several times at Dallas, etc. He is a good man..

I think (with most of the folks here) that his first post was disjointed and didn't make much sense. I attribute that to his loss of a friend and hunting buddy, quite unexpectedly, at that.

Like some of us do, Leonard decided to muse on AR, probably before he was really ready to do so. He, in effect, "thought out loud" while trying to come to grips with a death of a buddy and the subsequent consequences therefrom. He might well have not thought of the monies already spent or obligated by the PH and outfitter, the loss of the opportunity to sell a license and profit from it and trophy fees... a bunch of stuff that wouldn't first come to my mind when a lifetime friend woke up dead.

Then, thought not well expressed, he obviously did not want to seem to profit from the death by getting a two for one... and double taxidermy, etc. plays into the picture... heck, that stuff isn't free, and he enjoys his wife aboard, not off on her own 1x1.

I agree that PH's have to make a living and most will really suffer from returning a 100 percent deposit on a 21 day hunt (particularly when the season in Tanzania is so short)... I'm amazed that so many can handle the cancelled hunt with a refund or another date.

What I'm trying to say is that:

1. Leonard has a good heart, but didn't express quite what he meant (in my simple mind, anyway) Let's give him the benefit of that doubt.

2. I can't blame the providers for keeping the deposit. Some PH's and outfitters can handle such a loss, and if they can, they damn well should extend every effort to mitigate the family's loss. Unfortunatly, lots of PH's live hand to mouth and can't handle such a loss without going belly up. There is a simple solution, though. Travel insurance is expensive (but only if you don't need it, btw). Buy it!

3. Second guessing Leonard is fair because he pushed the "post now" button. Sitll, I'm going to believe that he really is just a fellow asking for answers to unanswerable questions, "Why did my friend die and how do I handle it".

Leonard didn't get where he is in life by being stupid. He'll figure out what is the proper course.

So...

Leonard, again, miss your friend, grieve your friend, burn his memory into your heart... and then find someone who is worthy of taking his place. Get the most money you can for the family and when you get to Tanzania, shoot a .404 Jeffery at the Southern Cross, howl at the moon, say a prayer for the soul of a hunter gone and then you and your wife have a good time. Your bud (and evidently his family) would want nothing less.

Gents,

Some of you are too ready to condemn. My reading of this post is that failing a refund, he or his agent are thinking of reselling the hunt to recoup some of the moneys paid. The agent has said he could get $20K for it at this point in the year. This hunt could be bought by a third party (in which case he has to live with a stranger on his hunt) or by him for his wife. If the price paid were $20K, the money would go to the family (I don't see where he says or implies that this money is going into his pocket ... the hunt is not his to sell). All he is saying is that if he does buy the hunt for his wife, then he pays out $20K (to the family, there is no other conceivable recipient..the agent/outfitter have been paid in full so the money is not going to them), he is only into the hunt for $15K more than the cost of taking his wife as observer. Hence his statement that he would be paying $15K for a $56K hunt.

Shame on those of you who turned this into an attack on 404....the guy's dream hunt with a lifelong hunting friend has turned into a nightmare...even if the money were refunded by the outfitter in the best of worlds, it will still be a cheerless hunt as he will be thinking of his departed hunting buddy every night around the campfire, for sure. So accusing him of trying to profit by this hunt is insensitive at best.

There is no widow in this deal. If you read the earlier posts it's actually an ex-wife who cleaned the guy out and made his life a misery so I don't think she has any legal or moral claim on the hunt. There are two (presumably adult) daughters who may or may not be the beneficiaries of his estate..who knows, maybe the guy left it all to SCI, or to 404 for that matter. We don't know, it's none of our business.

If there is a bad actor in this deal, it's the guys who have the money and won't cut the estate any slack. They could refund $20K of the daily rates AND the prepaid trophy fees (which they are being coy about...I think they have to refund those anyway and I think that amounts to $15K) and still not be out of pocket in my opinion as they would keep $21K to cover their costs; or they could sell the hunt (which is suddenly worth only $20K...wonder what they would have said if the guys offered them that sum originally).

not sure how you translated that all from the original post mrlexma? Never read any mention of giving the money back to the estate in any form. He stated in another post the family asked him to shoot his friends bag, he didnt want double fees for everything if his wife were to take it. So in his first 5 posts nothing was mentioned about money going to the girls then it came up a day later, when the question of where he was losing money came up.

guess you decided to erase your post mr. oh well you must of went back and read.

To me the whole thing confused me wasnt sure where it was heading what so ever. If he had said from the get go he wanted to get money back for his friends kids than there would be no confusion, was kind of hard to see what he was getting at. I dont think i was alone on that.

quote:

Originally posted by Russ Gould:
Gents,

Some of you are too ready to condemn. My reading of this post is that failing a refund, he or his agent are thinking of reselling the hunt to recoup some of the moneys paid. The agent has said he could get $20K for it at this point in the year. This hunt could be bought by a third party (in which case he has to live with a stranger on his hunt) or by him for his wife. If the price paid were $20K, the money would go to the family (I don't see where he says or implies that this money is going into his pocket ... the hunt is not his to sell). All he is saying is that if he does buy the hunt for his wife, then he pays out $20K (to the family, there is no other conceivable recipient..the agent/outfitter have been paid in full so the money is not going to them), he is only into the hunt for $15K more than the cost of taking his wife as observer. Hence his statement that he would be paying $15K for a $56K hunt.

Shame on those of you who turned this into an attack on 404....the guy's dream hunt with a lifelong hunting friend has turned into a nightmare...even if the money were refunded by the outfitter in the best of worlds, it will still be a cheerless hunt as he will be thinking of his departed hunting buddy every night around the campfire, for sure. So accusing him of trying to profit by this hunt is insensitive at best.

There is no widow in this deal. If you read the earlier posts it's actually an ex-wife who cleaned the guy out and made his life a misery so I don't think she has any legal or moral claim on the hunt. There are two (presumably adult) daughters who may or may not be the beneficiaries of his estate..who knows, maybe the guy left it all to SCI, or to 404 for that matter. We don't know, it's none of our business.

If there is a bad actor in this deal, it's the guys who have the money and won't cut the estate any slack. They could refund $20K of the daily rates AND the prepaid trophy fees (which they are being coy about...I think they have to refund those anyway and I think that amounts to $15K) and still not be out of pocket in my opinion as they would keep $21K to cover their costs; or they could sell the hunt (which is suddenly worth only $20K...wonder what they would have said if the guys offered them that sum originally).

Well summarised and said.

If people actually read what lb404 has said, among other things, the hunt is FULLY paid for, not just a deposit.

The outfitter almost certainly will have a no cancellation policy - 99% of them do, and they insisted on full payment up front. Something that is always unwise to do. Usually a reason.

Contact? Again we see the NEED to have a hunt agreement in writing and all clients should have one in their hands before paying a deposit. There is always reason why some operators choose to be coy and insist on hand shake agreements.

Surely when a client has died, some refund should be possible on altrusitic grounds alone. However having said that it is foolish to pay $56,000 upfront for a full safari fee and not have a sensible level of insurance. At the moment this isn't lb404's problem as he IS going, it is the estates problem. The outfitter would be right in saying this is not his problem however profiting from someone's death is bad PR.

lb404,

If you can sell the hunt for a reasonable price, go for it. If you can sell it to a friend or acquaintance then at least that person gets a nice benefit. Maybe a person who could not normally afford such a hunt but it is a dream?

If YOU choose to take it up, don't feel shy in doing so for your wife. What does she think of about it? Is she interested in the DG hunting? Remember she will have a PH backing her up. Maybe it will be a dream hunt for her too.

Taxidermy? Not everything needs to be hung on the wall. Take the best or most special out of the buffalos, do some skull mounts, and maybe a skin isntead, photos of some only.

Personally if get no satisfaction from the agent/outfitter eg postponing the hunt to next year, and if your wife is game, take it up, pay for the discounted price and make some savings elsewhere to make it doable eg taxidermy. His family have offered it to you, so there is nothing wrong, and they still get the "discounted" price in cash.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
lb404,
I agree with you in part. However, if a name was mentioned by another poster and it WAS NOT the correct name, then the least I would do is state so.

I disagree. While I too would like to know the outfitter and agent's names, going from past AR performance that should only be done once negotiations are finished and in this case probably AFTER the safari lb404 is going on!

Else next thing we will see is all the agent's and outfitter's mates all jumping up and down doing the "defence" thing and the client is crucified instead.

The responsibility for naming an outfitter is not lb404's it is the responsibility of the person making a "suggestion" by guesswork alone.

Nitrox,
re-read what I wrote.
I said someone other than 404, mentioned an outfitter, HARPREET BRAR - RUNGWA GAME SAFARIS. If that WAS NOT the outfitter 404 is dealing with, then 404 should say that RUNGWA SAFARIS IS NOT the outfitter in question. do you agree now?

IMHO, lb404 should not be attacked here. The outfitter posts here as well. lb404 doen't want to get him upset and then go hunt with him. The basic question has been answered by most responders: It seems like an unreasonable position by the outfitter under the circumstances unless there is some info missing.

Wow! This thread beats "Days of Our Lives"! I don't know lb404, and I understand JudgeG's sympathetic post as well. I assume tha lb404 can read and that the fact that he has NOT contradicted the name RUNGWA Safaris means that they are in fact the outfitter in question. Having said that, if they in fact have a clearly stated policy on refunds, which previous posters have referred to, then the term caveat emptor comes to mind. I think this may well be a lesson for all of us.. "Thou fool, this very day your life will be forfeit..." A sobering thought indeed, as I type this nonsense to a forum on the Internet!!!
Having said all that, I guess we should not be thinking out loud on the internet!
Peter.

Earlier posts on another thread by lb404 indicated he was headed to Tanz with Rungwa Safaris.

quote:

Originally posted by shitkari:
it strikes me that you don't have an awful lot of good luck on your safaris and if you don't mind my saying so, perhaps you ought to re-read some of your own posts and ask yourself if there's a reason there somewhere.....

Low blow.

While I was questioning what was going on, i dont think he has stated the outfit nor should he no matter how much you guys want him too. So he opens this shit mess on here and god knows one of you big mouths some how some way will get it back to the outfit, so than when goes there he has to deal with that. SCREW that I wouldn't say who it was at all if i didnt want too. Of corse if he wants to sell at least on ehere he would have to state the name, so theres another shit mess. I know you all want to know but you are npot the ones that will have to deal with it later. AND why should he state if its not Rungwa,, i mean why so then you guys can keep naming outfits for him to say no till until you can figure out who it is, give me a break.

Insisting on naming the safari company, or confirming or denying someone's guess is not likely to be helpful. As soon as one company is "cleared", another guess would be made, etc. No comment regarding the guess seems reasonable.

It seems best to sell the second hunt and move on. It won't be hard to sell the other portion of the hunt at a discount. Yes, you probably won't know the other party well, but you should be able to at least screen the potential buyers. You would probably get more than the $20K estimate, but I guess that depends on the level of screening! Heck, for $20K I'll volunteer to go, and I'm even willing to come meet with you in OK earlier this summer so you won't be going with a "stranger". If we don't hit it off, then sell the hunt to someone else. I'm sure I'm not the only one on the forum that would make the same offer.
I understand the dilema, and the confusion created by the sudden loss of your friend, but a solution seems easily attainable.
Good Luck,
Bill

I've deleted my posts here because try as I might, I can't figure out exactly what is trying to be accomplished.

LB, I am truly sorry about your friend and his family.

Leonard is a good man! He is a man of respect.

He has a problem, which is none of his own doing. He has come here among the folks he posts with, seeking advise and or help.

Shameful are the suggestions that he is trying to profit from the death of his close friend.

Leonard is a fine man and a gentleman. He has hunted with us in the southern rockies and was a pleasure to share a camp with. Be assured he is not trying to "profit" from the death of a close friend!!

It is easy to second guess....I say, there but for the grace of God go we all..

Leonard, hang in there, I hope and believe this will turn out as best it can.

quote:

Originally posted by ForrestB:
I've deleted my posts here because try as I might, I can't figure out exactly what is trying to be accomplished.

LB, I am truly sorry about your friend and his family.

Me, too.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
Nitrox,
re-read what I wrote.
I said someone other than 404, mentioned an outfitter, HARPREET BRAR - RUNGWA GAME SAFARIS. If that WAS NOT the outfitter 404 is dealing with, then 404 should say that RUNGWA SAFARIS IS NOT the outfitter in question. do you agree now?

Mich,

Yes I read that the first time. If someone wants to play "lets try to guess the outfitter" it's up to them to withdraw the comment or allegation or the hosts to step in (IMO).

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

quote:

Originally posted by shitkari:
it strikes me that you don't have an awful lot of good luck on your safaris and if you don't mind my saying so, perhaps you ought to re-read some of your own posts and ask yourself if there's a reason there somewhere.....

Low blow.

Yep, not trying real hard to drum up business it would appear. Good thing there are so many options.

Leonard... Sorry for your loss... You have been a very generous man and obviously are misunderstood. Hang in there... It will all work out in the end... keep your chin up!
Aaron