In reality you shouldn't be offering this credit facility to your customers, particularly given that they generally live in another country. It was only a matter of time before you were burned. With electronic banking your customers should be able to deposit the required amount in your bank before they leave your camp. That is provided you have internet access. I wouldn't expect any different if I was hunting with you.

Some of us do not use Internet banking, and have always depended on a gentleman’s agreement.

As Buzz mention, he has only got two stupid crooks throughout all his years of guiding.

We should not lower ourselves to the lowest denominator.

Those who choose to behave this way should be named in public, so others know how to avoid dealing with them.

Four of us just finished a fantastic hunt.

I have only paid part of the cost, the final bill has not come in yet.

I have no agreement with them, but they know the money would be on the way immediately I get the bill.

Practically all our business dealings here are based on a handshake.

What we have learnt is to stop dealing with crooks.

We will sometimes pay a portion of our expected trophy fees in advance. Somewhere in the area of 50%.I am in what would be considered a "seasonal" business and am sensitive to others in same boat.Seems to work well for us. We have never come up short doing this and the practice seems to be much appreciated on the operator's side.

quote:

Practically all our business dealings here are based on a handshake.

The days of the gentleman's handshake are coming to an end. The "Old School" clan is dwindling fast and those of the new generation with those gentlemanly traits are few and far between.

I guess the only way that I can think of to alleviate this problem in the future is to hold the trophies until final payment is made.

quote:

The days of the gentleman's handshake are coming to an end. The "Old School" clan is dwindling fast and those of the new generation with those gentlemanly traits are few and far between.

Maybe so, but there are reasons why this still has a place in business, particularly the business of hunting . I hope the practise survives and that parties on both sides of "the deal" will regard it beyond any possibility of abuse. Such gentlemens agreements made takes considerable stress out of the financial side of hunting abroad.

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:

quote:

he PH has been payed in full including a healthy commission. On asking him about the lack of payment he says the client wants to pay by credit card. This is not something we offer. The outside PH says he is trying to set up a credit card facility so that his client can pay him and then he will settle the bill. However if he is unable to by Friday he will hand over the issue to us

Buzz,

The PH is fully responsible for this fiasco and up to him to sort it out.

In this instance the PH, whom if I have correctly understood, is also doubling as an agent whose booking commission can run anywhere between 10-15% of total daily rates.

All in all, PH fees + commission + tip(?), can be considered a pretty packet.

Fulvio is spot on! This is the PH's responsibility. It is bad business to make you the one who has to deal with the client.

Disgraceful behavior by the client. The agent PH should own the problem and solve it. Period.

Next time. No pay to Zim. PH until you get paid. I know, hindsight is 20/20.

Buzz,
Definitely a disgraceful behavior toward you and your operation. The show season is coming up soon, and most likely the PH and/or the client will show themselves at one of the events. Perhaps you and Gavin could team up again to "convince" one or both of them that their behavior is not acceptable. Count me in if you need any help. Cheers, Tim

Buzz,

I just saw this post.... the PH/Booking Agent's and Client's not making prompt payment is indeed sad and disappointing (to put it mildly). Given the outstanding service you provide, fair payment terms and the current difficult financial conditions in Zimbabwe, one would expect better. It's not like the terms of the deal are unclear...

It sounds like you are well along in resolving this, I sure hope so.

Cheers, look forward to catching up in Dallas.

Eric

quote:

The days of the gentleman's handshake are coming to an end. The "Old School" clan is dwindling fast and those of the new generation with those gentlemanly traits are few and far between.

THIS!!!

I just saw this thread But I would of said the same as everyone else. That is far too long and is playing at the generous offer of paying when you return home.

As I had just completed my first safari with Buzz end of October, what I’d call handshake deals, it’s a sort of trust you don’t see anymore and rather refreshing.

I returned home and immediately left sheep hunting with my wife who drew a tag. After she got a ram it was back to work which was quite behind without me there. A full week of not being able to hit the bank during open hours. A) I couldn’t leave work as we work a crew and must have all guys there. B)we work crazy hours that don’t allow normal business times.

So it wasn’t until the following week I was able to send the remaining trophy fees and balance. Did I want to send the funds the next day I got home. YES and I did feel bad. But with life and such it took an honest week to send the funds.

And in that time, CMS and buzz never once asked or said a single word. They’re every bit above board, and that’s how they should be treated likewise.

I've always used wire transfers, mostly in advance, but with folks I've worked with repeatedly, sometimes we've done the balance upon my return. But cash.

quote:

Originally posted by crane:
We will sometimes pay a portion of our expected trophy fees in advance. Somewhere in the area of 50%.I am in what would be considered a "seasonal" business and am sensitive to others in same boat.Seems to work well for us. We have never come up short doing this and the practice seems to be much appreciated on the operator's side.

Plus 1!
I have paid about what I expect to shoot in advance. I like to not be concerned about money when I am on a hunt. On time I owed a little and another time I was owed a small refund. No problem as the financial part was handled through the booking agents in the U.S.

quote:

Originally posted by 30.06king:

quote:

The days of the gentleman's handshake are coming to an end. The "Old School" clan is dwindling fast and those of the new generation with those gentlemanly traits are few and far between.

Maybe so, but there are reasons why this still has a place in business, particularly the business of hunting . I hope the practise survives and that parties on both sides of "the deal" will regard it beyond any possibility of abuse. Such gentlemens agreements made takes considerable stress out of the financial side of hunting abroad.

I disagree. Having a well-written contract takes all the stress out of the deal for me. "Gentleman's Agreements" can be difficult to enforce in court if it goes South; especially if it is in another country. For Americans, it is best to contact with a US-based agent who can be sued here.

The problem with 'gentlemen's agreements' is that they're only honoured by gentlemen & sadly not all hunters are gentlemen.............. Most are, but not all and it's those few that make written safari contracts essential because without them, it's a case of when someone get's screwed not if.

And I should add that it happens on both sides sides of the fence.

Go online and set up a Square Account. You can email him an invoice but be sure to add an additional 3% to cover the fees. This is a legit service that is owned by American Express.

I’ve settled up before leaving and after returning both. In the old days we took travelers checks or even cash.

But gentlemen would generally take a check from another gentleman. Or wait for a wire upon return home.

Funny story. Some comic relief. Once I settled up by personal check in Dar Es Salaam. Something like $40K or so. This was in October.

I watched my account for awhile, but the check never cleared. I was busy and forgot about it.

Then I went to the SCI convention in January, where I met my outfitter, Eric Pasanisi, to book our next trip. I remembered to check my account.

I said, “Eric, are you ever going to cash my check from last year?”

He was perplexed, and I told him the check had never cleared.

He said, “I’m sure it’s still in my father’s briefcase. We will take care of it.”

Those were the days.

Last hunt I went on, and only one I booked through an agent, I put money for trophy fees on deposit with booking agent like an escrow account. Don’t have to carry cash around, lets PH know money is there so no worries for them.

quote:

Originally posted by cable68:
Last hunt I went on, and only one I booked through an agent, I put money for trophy fees on deposit with booking agent like an escrow account. Don’t have to carry cash around, lets PH know money is there so no worries for them.

It does not always work that way either.

I have heard of well known American outfitters not paying their own professional hunters for months after the hunt is over.

Despite the fact they have been paid!

When you are a crook, you are a crook.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by cable68:
Last hunt I went on, and only one I booked through an agent, I put money for trophy fees on deposit with booking agent like an escrow account. Don’t have to carry cash around, lets PH know money is there so no worries for them.

It does not always work that way either.

I have heard of well known American outfitters not paying their own professional hunters for months after the hunt is over.

Despite the fact they have been paid!

When you are a crook, you are a crook.

Hard to believe people like this can sleep at night.

Definitely a crappy situation. Probably the simplest and quickest way to accept a credit card payment would be to setup a paypal account. The sender can send funds via credit card or bank account. You'll be charged 3% or so, so adjust the invoice accordingly. Just a thought. Could come in handy in the future as well.

I have always paid my TFs after getting back to the US; in June I made it a priority to do it the very first day.

Buzz: you need to post the name of the client if you are stiffed. Then sue him.

Folks,

As another poster said "a gentleman's agreement is only good between gentleman." In my opinion The easiest way to avoid non payment of trophy fees is to have the hunter pay his trophy fees before leaving camp and make that a hard and fast rule. That can be done by a prepayment to the outfitter or by the hunter bringing cash. Both have obvious drawbacks for the hunter. In the case of a booking with an agent such as myself it is most efficient to require a substantial trophy fee deposit 30 days before the safari and only transfer that money to the safari operator once all parties are in agreement as to what animals were taken. The vast majority of clients love this as it eliminates having to carry large sums of cash and there is no need to worry about money while on the hunt.

Mark

I too, have always paid for my trophy fees when I returned to the US. I would make arrangements to wire transfer the funds within the week. I have never had any problem with this, nor has any of my PHs. That way, you know exactly what you have shot and what you are paying for, as this can certainly change during a hunt.

I have always paid my trophy fees in camp on the last day. With one exception when the outfitter offered me a trophy elephant bull during the safari. The fee was four months take home pay for me back then and he said, ' Some now .. some later.'

So I shot a wonderful bull elephant and the fine gentleman actually shipped the ivory before he got the other half of the trophy fee.

All done on a handshake.

I am certain to be flamed, but I would rather the hunting outfit get the 15% commission.

Buzz, as a client I appreciate the opportunity to settle up on the trophy fees when I get home. I hope that the poor behavior of some will not result in the loss of that privilege for the rest of us.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Buzz, as a client I appreciate the opportunity to settle up on the trophy fees when I get home. I hope that the poor behavior of some will not result in the loss of that privilege for the rest of us.

+1

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Folks,

As another poster said "a gentleman's agreement is only good between gentleman." In my opinion The easiest way to avoid non payment of trophy fees is to have the hunter pay his trophy fees before leaving camp and make that a hard and fast rule. That can be done by a prepayment to the outfitter or by the hunter bringing cash. Both have obvious drawbacks for the hunter. In the case of a booking with an agent such as myself it is most efficient to require a substantial trophy fee deposit 30 days before the safari and only transfer that money to the safari operator once all parties are in agreement as to what animals were taken. The vast majority of clients love this as it eliminates having to carry large sums of cash and there is no need to worry about money while on the hunt.

Mark

I hate that idea, because if you declare bankruptcy I am out any money you are holding for me. It has happened before.

Anyone who thinks money in the hands of a booking agent is "safe" is living in dreamsville. I suppose the longer term operators like Atchesons are safer than others, but anyone can declare BK...as long term readers on AR are quite aware.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Folks,

As another poster said "a gentleman's agreement is only good between gentleman." In my opinion The easiest way to avoid non payment of trophy fees is to have the hunter pay his trophy fees before leaving camp and make that a hard and fast rule. That can be done by a prepayment to the outfitter or by the hunter bringing cash. Both have obvious drawbacks for the hunter. In the case of a booking with an agent such as myself it is most efficient to require a substantial trophy fee deposit 30 days before the safari and only transfer that money to the safari operator once all parties are in agreement as to what animals were taken. The vast majority of clients love this as it eliminates having to carry large sums of cash and there is no need to worry about money while on the hunt.

Mark

I hate that idea, because if you declare bankruptcy I am out any money you are holding for me. It has happened before.

Anyone who thinks money in the hands of a booking agent is "safe" is living in dreamsville. I suppose the longer term operators like Atchesons are safer than others, but anyone can declare BK...as long term readers on AR are quite aware.

You are quite right.

I would not have been able to hunt that leopard below with Buzz had he not allowed me to send the trophy fee after getting home. His trust in me was very appreciated.

quote:

Originally posted by Aspen Hill Adventures:
I would not have been able to hunt that leopard below with Buzz had he not allowed me to send the trophy fee after getting home. His trust in me was very appreciated.

The vast majority of both clients and professional hunters are just normal, down to earth, honest individuals.

Regardless of their country.

But, we do have some criminals who do take advantage of this, and try their best to benefit themselves and ruin it for the rest of us.

Expose the bastards, and let everyone avoids dealing with them.

I have absolutely no sympathy to anyone knowingly engaging in this sort of game.

We have several examples posted here.

[/QUOTE]Hard to believe people like this can sleep at night.[/QUOTE]

Not only do they sleep well but they also wake up and greet you with a smile on their face.

Individuals such as these are known to have "facce da culo"

Buzz I feel your pain I have a invoice outstanding going on 2 years now, client is all over facebook hunting and I still don't have my money. Big Deposit payed shot more went home AND I was not paid, O he also got his trophies as well I did not keep it.

quote:

Originally posted by INTREPID SAFARIS:
Buzz I feel your pain I have a invoice outstanding going on 2 years now, client is all over facebook hunting and I still don't have my money. Big Deposit payed shot more went home AND I was not paid, O he also got his trophies as well I did not keep it.

If he is all over facebook hunting you owe it to yourself and your fellow outfitters to plaster his name all over the Internet!

quote:

Big Deposit payed shot more went home AND I was not paid, O he also got his trophies as well I did not keep it.

He short-changed you, got his trophies and is probably splitting his sides laughing, knowing there is pretty much bugger all you can do about it.

FULVIO...Nothing you are 100% correct my friend...but one thing I believe in what comes around goes around...

quote:

what comes around goes around...

Very true and it is my hope that it comes round and bites him and others like him, in the ass big time.

Along with paying the hunting deposit up front and the balance prior to the hunt. Setting up an escrow account with licensed escrow agent for trophy fees may be a good idea. Trophy fees are paid to the escrow agent. A certified document detailing which animals were taken by the client, provides sufficient evidence to release trophy fee payments.