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| One of Us |
In an effort to be fair and before I jump the gun I wanted to see what you the clients feel on this scenario as I do not want to be unfair and act unjustly. Two big hunts were booked with us through an outside Zimbabwean PH based in the States. The hunts were completed on the 11 th and 18th of August respectively. Like all hunts we extend the offer that clients pay trophy fees on their return with in a reasonable time frame. To cut a long story short we did finally receive payment for one but we are still waiting the payment of the other. The PH has been payed in full including a healthy commission. On asking him about the lack of payment he says the client wants to pay by credit card. This is not something we offer. The outside PH says he is trying to set up a credit card facility so that his client can pay him and then he will settle the bill. However if he is unable to by Friday he will hand over the issue to us. I must state though that I do entirely trust the PH and do feel that this is genuinely a client issue and nothing to do with him. With that in mind. 1/PAYMENT IS 3 MONTHS LATE- ARE WE BEYOND AN ACCEPTABLE PERIOD OF WAITING EVEN IF THERE HAS BEEN SOME UNFORESEEN DISASTER OF WHICH WE ARE UNAWARE OF. ( I am giving him the benefit of doubt here) 2/EVERYONE WORRIES ABOUT UNSCRUPULOUS OPERATORS RIPPING OFF CLIENTS- WHAT ABOUT CLIENTS NOT PAYING OPERATORS- IT GOES WITH OUT SAYING WE HAVE PAYED PARKS/ COUNCIL PH FEES ETC 3/ HOW MUCH LONGER DOES AN OPERATOR WAIT/ EMAIL ETC AND WHAT CAN AN OPERATOR DO IF IN THE END WE DO NOT RECEIVE THE MONEY. FOR THE RECORD BOTH CLIENT HAD GREAT HUNT AND THE HUNT IN QUESTION WAS A 14 DAY BUFFALO LEOPARD PLAINS GAME HUNT WHICH WAS VERY SUCCESSFUL AND I HAVE TO SAY THE CLIENT WAS A VERY NICE MAN ALSO! | ||
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This is ridiculous. This is a totally unreasonable time to wait. Payment with a credit card will result in a sizable fee to the credit card company resulting in a loss to CMS UNLESS you increase the cost to compensate for the credit card fee. I would wait to Friday then politely contact the client. That is absolutely NOT unreasonable at all. My guess is the client does not have the money thus he wants to use the credit card for payment. | |||
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No excuse, as you provide banking right in the US. You extended me credit, for which I was grateful and was unexpected as a first time client. I felt bad I missed the bank the day I got home, and had to wait to the next day. Ridiculous not to have paid by now. | |||
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You are being screwed. Payment should have been promptly made. The middle man should be leaning on the client as much as possible. Future business with all three should be avoided. | |||
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Based on the info you provided: You not accepting a credit card is perfectly understandable especially if the client didn't arrange for Credit Card payment in advance. I am assuming the money is several thousand dollars perhaps in the range of $10-$20 thousand. If the client has that type of credit available to him on his credit card (assuming he doesn't have the cash immediately available to him) it is very likely he can easily arrange for a personal loan from his bank to generate the funds. Short answer is - tell the PH the money is due now, you have been more than patient and tell the client go get a personal loan or take a cash advance against the credit card. The cash advance will be very expensive for the client but the client created this problem you didn't. Another possibility is if you have another booking agent in the US (many of which accept CC payments) that you work with, perhaps they would be willing to run the payment through their company but make sure the client pays the additional 3% or other fees. With respect to courses of action, the hardest thing to do in business is "make somebody pay you" unless you have leverage. Mike  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Why wait to Friday? Send him the e-mail right away. I trust you still have his trophies? Good Hunting Carl Frederik | |||
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I agree no excuse. You're providing a great service to your clients to allow final payment upon returning home. Contact the client. I'll bet there are a few lawyers on AR who would help you out if you should need some legal assistance. Tom Z NRA Life Member | |||
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What Mike Dettorre said.  Moreover, the Zimbabwean PH living here in the U.S., if he is actually worth his salt, will not turn tail and run and leave it soley to you to handle. It sounds like he was involved from the beginning and he needs to step up and take care of this. If not, then I would not do any further business with him. | |||
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Buzz I feel for you. Someone shat on trust you placed in them. That individual is beneath contempt. If that individual were genuinely trying to resolve the situation they could have readily followed one of the courses suggested by Mike Dettore. If property is held it could be remortgaged to raise cash. Other than threatening legal options ( stressful and spendy ) perhaps constantly pestering the offender for payment might work. Sorta has worked for me at times with reluctant payers. Eventually they just get sick and tired of the bother. Good luck mate. Hunting.... it's not everything, it's the only thing. | |||
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You have been generous. I think Mike has a good alternative if you have the resources (having the agent who accepts cc payments and run it through them for a handling fee) Naming and shaming him may be your only recourse if he still remains a deadbeat. Depending on the money, having a lawyer hound him may be excessively expensive. I can think of reasons it could have hapoened, but to not be up front about it is the sign of a dishonorable individual. I hope this gets resolved soon for you. Good luck! | |||
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Buzz, my .02. I haven't hunted with you but have known you since 2005 and would in a heartbeat. I know and have watched your ethics and character through the years. That frames up my thoughts. All the above guys have it pretty good and I agree with mikes points. There has not been enough emphasis placed on the Zim PH to settle this or make it good. He is the one that I guess did the booking, took a PH fee, also a commission, etc. so he has skin in this game, he just needs to step up. I would tell him to get with client and make a plan because you need to be made whole and now! Larry York, SC | |||
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Buzz Most CC companies offer checks. They send them to me all the time. Have him use one of those checks and send it to your US bank. You will not be out a transaction fee and the charge will still be on his CC statement. Best of Luck | |||
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Cash payment due immediately. Nothing else. 3 months is not acceptable. Ski+3 Kalispell, MT | |||
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A poor show, services has been rendered at the client's request and discretion and payment is due. If the client ran into unforeseen trouble all it takes is a call or e-mail to explain his situation and arrange for terms of settlement. In my profession (medical) all I risk is loosing my time as I don't provide a physical product. I do two things to get my money: 1)pester incessantly 2) all communication is recorded to lay open the deceit of lies that you will be bombarded with. Involving lawyers tend to benefit only the lawyers. Experience has shown that individuals with a display of affluence are the ones that don't pay, when I see payments of $30 or so coming in, I investigate it and it is often the aged or less well heeled settling their debt over time. These are the ones I often write off as they are sacrifing a meal or school clothes to settle my bill while I am checking out hunting deals, optics or reloading gear. The non-payers with a good address and expensive watch who was worried whether they will recover quickly for their overseas holiday enough I hound like CMS tracker on a track - they don't deserve any f@cking leniency!!! Even if only the lawyer is going to benefit from legal pursuit, at least I can remind him that his father wasn't a gentleman or that he wasted his parent's time.... | |||
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Chris Lozano, Excellent point - I forgot about those. He should be able to call his CC bank/issuer and request them if he doesn't have the ones that were sent to him when he first got the card or when they sent them out trying to entice him to transfer balances from another CC. The CC company doesn't care about the purpose, they want the transaction multi $k transaction. Mike What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Buzz; Post his picture, name and address for PETA!  Hahaha!!! | |||
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That is hysterical. | |||
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I have always sent wire transfers within a week. When they get there is a different story, but all have been received within 2-3 weeks. Paying with a credit card is just BS. IMO way too much time has past. DRSS Searcy 470 NE | |||
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Slow pay is often the harbinger of no pay. Cash price + 4% for credit card. Net in 30 days, 1.5% per month after. That's 18%/yr. All standard here in Pa. 90 days out start turning whatever screws you have. Scott | |||
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I would tell your US-based Zim PH that the only acceptable thing he can hand over to you is payment in full, period. If HIS client needs to pay by CC, then HE can deal with it and any fees that may be incurred. JEB Katy, TX Already I was beginning to fall into the African way of thinking: That if you properly respect what you are after, and shoot it cleanly and on the animal's terrain, if you imprison in your mind all the wonder of the day from sky to smell to breeze to flowers—then you have not merely killed an animal. You have lent immortality to a beast you have killed because you loved him and wanted him forever so that you could always recapture the day - Robert Ruark DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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This is ridiculous. Demand your money from the PH and if that fails, go after the client. Three months is absurd. Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… | |||
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I think this is on the back of the PH. Period! | |||
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| One of Us |
Late payment is not acceptable to me. I have dumped many clients that don't pay in a timely manner. Mike's suggestions all seem right on to me. . | |||
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Collecting money is one of the biggest PIA's of owning a business and I would imagine especially if you are based in a different county than the creditor. Send a polite email stating that you need to be paid immediately and further stating that if the funds are not received that you will be forwarding his personal info to SCI, DSC and every hunting forum you can find. He is giving the rest of us a bad name. Have gun- Will travel The value of a trophy is computed directly in terms of personal investment in its acquisition. Robert Ruark | |||
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| One of Us |
I had a client pay me with one of those credit card general issued checks once. It worked, although I must admit that I was a little nervous since it was a fairly large amount of money. The only problem with this situation will likely be that the client's credit card limit may be well below what is owed to Buzz, and that may not cover the amount that Buzz is owed. I still say the the US based Zimbabwean PH is on the hook and is primarily responsible. | |||
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Buzz, to me a critical issue is what type of contract exists between you and the US based PH or you and the non- paying client. If a contract exists it should spell out the terms of payment and penalties for slow or non- payment. Don’t let the PH off the hook- the onus for collection should be on HIM, not you. Jesus saves, but Moses invests | |||
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Sounds like construction business at times Big general contractors had done that to me on several occasions ( 90+ days) Stupid ridiculous irresponsible and obscene is what I call it " Until the day breaks and the nights shadows flee away " Big ivory for my pillow and 2.5% of Neanderthal DNA flowing thru my veins. When I'm ready to go, pack a bag of gunpowder up my ass and strike a fire to my pecker, until I squeal like a boar. Yours truly , Milan The Boarkiller - World according to Milan PS I have big boar on my floor...but it ain't dead, just scared to move... Man should be happy and in good humor until the day he dies... Only fools hope to live forever “ Hávamál” | |||
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This^ ___________________________________________________________________________________ Give me the simple life; an AK-47, a good guard dog and a nymphomaniac who owns a liquor store. | |||
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Agree here. If the US-based PH can’t get the money from a (presumably) US-based client, how is handing off the issue to a Zim-based PH going to be any better? The PH is the middle-man and from what is described, seems to own the problem. And no need to hold off contacting the client. Three months is ridiculous. You can set up a Square account for accepting credit cards in about 20 minutes. They accept up to 50K per transaction, presume that would cover it. Have the client cover fees and never book him again. | |||
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| One of Us |
the way to do this is have the client take a loan on credit card o second on house or any other way and wire you the money ASAP | |||
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I have always paid my hunts in Full before I have left Africa. If I was extended Credit for an expensive additional animal that I did not plan on harvesting. When I returned home I would wire the money the next Business day that my Bank was open. I think a week is too long to wait? | |||
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If a US based agent or PH booked the hunt, he (or she) is as responsible as the hunter. I agree to go after the s-o-b (s). And, if you do, let the AR folks know the name of the hunter and agent both. My last two hunts with Wayne vdB I paid my blance after the hunt the first day I arrived home. I'm sure most here do the same. I know it's difficult to bring money on a hunt as one does not the know the final bill but having a credit cart number in advance or some agreemnt for timely payment is a must. I imagine it would also be good to have the consequences of late payment on the contract, too. When I hunt in Africa I also vacation. I can't imagine bringing 10-20,000$ for my hunt in cash with me when I am there. Another thought is to have the hunt and projected fees paid in advance and refund what is not used immediately. There are some ups and downs to this, too. Good luck with this. Your reputation is the best in the business. It will come right. Cal _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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| one of us |
If I were you I would take the credit card payment, it may be your only shot. The guy may just be trying to boost his frequent flier miles but on the other hand he may have taken a hit in the market or gotten into a divorce. Would not be the first time a guy got back from safari to find a "call my lawyer" note. Russ Gould - Whitworth Arms LLC BigfiveHQ.com, Large Calibers and African Safaris Doublegunhq.com, Fine English, American and German Double Rifles and Shotguns VH2Q.com, Varmint Rifles and Gear | |||
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| Administrator |
This is utterly ridiculous! Name and shame him, and I hope no one books through him again! I will add his name to Blair World Wide and Mark Sullivan to never, ever hunt with again! Anyone involved in crooked dealings should be avoided like the plague This is the sort of thing which makes people distrust others. And done to you, as a professional hunter, with impeccable reputation, who has provided the services they asked for? No sympathy with him whatsoever! I hate doing business with dishonest people, and this is dishonesty taken to extreme! Especially as he has already been paid! I have been mentioning this for quite sometime - that there are at least ten crooked clients for each crooked professional hunter or outfitter. Trouble is those at the receiving end, keep trying, sometimes for years, to get their rightful payments, and never make public the name of the crook they are dealing with. I have been told so many times regarding this, and I would love to post the names here, but I have been specifically asked not to. | |||
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| One of Us |
Buzz, The PH is fully responsible for this fiasco and up to him to sort it out. In this instance the PH, whom if I have correctly understood, is also doubling as an agent whose booking commission can run anywhere between 10-15% of total daily rates. All in all, PH fees + commission + tip(?), can be considered a pretty packet. | |||
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Who signed the contract - Client of US based PH? I think the client probably is short of immediate cash and just trying to roll it over (assuming he is honest). I like Chris Lozano's suggestion. Good to remember that for the future! Thanks. "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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Folks thanks so much for the advice and also the many offers of help. Apparently the client has paid the PH and and when it clears he will pay us. Time will tell but it is sad that it took the above to make the client jump around. Thanks AR! I must say though that in 20 odd years we have never been "stiffed" by a client and have only had the above issue twice! Thanks again and have a great week- cheers Buzz | |||
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It's unfortunate that people sometimes force the need to take drastic measures. Hopefully it indeed ends well for you. Roger ___________________________ I'm a trophy hunter - until something better comes along. *we band of 45-70ers* | |||
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Good ! A handshake is in my book a bullet proof contract as it should be. Never do business With People who don`t respect that. Life is too short to deal With scumbags. | |||
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| Administrator |
Next time this clients wants to hunt, he better cough up everything in advance! | |||
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