What would be the best first rifle/calibre for a young ph (bigger than .375)? Any suggestions?

Easy. CZ in 458 Lott.

The ,458lott cz would be good, seeing that I know the cz's really well because I have one in .308! What about the .416rem, .404jeff, .460g&a, .450rigby rimless? Cost of ammo/reloading components is critical because I will only be an apprentice up in Tanzania, but maybe the tips would help......

The most cost effective is the 416 Rem Mag. Don't know how you would fare in Southern Africa for brass but its plentiful in the US, if you can get someone to get it for you.

Brass for the others is considerably more expensive. Also, 375 h&h brass can be fireformed if no other is available.

I vaguely remember reading somewhere that out of all the exotic calibers above the 375, the only factory ammo available in South Africa was for the 416 Rem Mag. I think that was in Magnum Magazine earlier this year.

Don,t know if that holds the same for Tanzania though.

Dies for the 416 Rem Mag are also esasily obtainable from Lee, RCBS and all the major manufacturers.

If I was you I would consider the 416rm carefully. Oh and do not listen to all the rubbish about it being a hot round with extraction problems. Some early federal ammo gave problems but is does not suffer from higher pressure than a 270win or 30-06.

There are other members of the forum that will confirm this - one that pops to mind is Ray Atkinson - he has a bucket load of experience with this caliber.

As far as rifles go, if you are on a budget you could consider a Winchester Model 70 as long as its given a going over by a good gunsmith. The only disadvantage I see with them is the 3 round mag - you may not consider that a disadvantage.

The more I think about it the more I realise that the 416 Rem Mag is probably the most practical DGR caliber after the 375 h&h.

Good luck with your choice and hopefully one of these days we will get to hunt with you.

.458 Lott will be the best choice, ammo isnt that expensive and you can alsways use .458 Win Mag ammo if you cant source Lott rounds. .458 Win Mag ammo is readily available in most countries you would be working in i assume?

A couple of questions, are you DG qualified? If you will be doing plains game hunts, you will not need anything bigger than a 375 H&H. If you are intrested in getting your DG rating I will go for a 416 Rigby or REM Mag. Of the factors you must consider are the availability of brass and the cost of it. First establish availability and then compare prices for the brass. I did that exercise and decided on the 416 Rigby.

I will be doing my 2 year ph apprenticeship in Tanzania where I'll be buiding camps, roads etc. and shooting, hanging and checking baits for leopard and lion. You never know if you're going to stumble into an angry tusker while building roads in the bush, so bigger is better, and why buy a .375 now if I'm going to need something bigger when I'm DG-rated and finished with the appie-ship?

I'll also be doing anti-poaching in the concession.

I want to buy another rifle and have it licenced along with the (forced, thanks to the new FCA) renewal of my .308 licence in 2006.

FWIW, last year in RSA a PH came the ranch we were staying at ( I enjoyed the characters we met as much as the hunting) and he was using an RSA manufactured Mauser in .416 RemMag. He said ammo was readily available there and seemed satisfied with the caliber.

He's up around Kruger and apparently gets a bit of PAC work, he had a fresh skull from a PAC lion that could tell tales on how tough a lion's life could get.

Young_ph,

404 is available in Tanzania and last time i checked with Tanganyika Arms they had 416Rigby at US$ 16=00 a round.

Hamdeni

quote:

Originally posted by young_ph:
The ,458lott cz would be good, seeing that I know the cz's really well because I have one in .308! What about the .416rem, .404jeff, .460g&a, .450rigby rimless? Cost of ammo/reloading components is critical because I will only be an apprentice up in Tanzania, but maybe the tips would help......

Quite like the idea of the .400 Tembo, or its slightly shorter version. More than adequate for big game, and becuse you can use .40 S&W/10mm Auto bullets in it for gazzels/baboons and cheep practice, it makes alot of sence.

Norma are seriously looking at loading either the original version or the slightly shorter one (to work in a standard length mauser action without having to change mag box)

young PH

First congratulations on getting to do what would seem a dream job to so many. I know you'll be doing all the grunt work but what an experience. As for your rifle and I'm sure I'll get some crap for this but I think for you the 458 Winchester Mognum might be the most practical. The guns so chambered are available from almost any manufacturer and ammo I believe is as available as anything and it has to be less expensive than 404,416 Rigby etc.

I'm guessing of course but I would think if you have to go through the hassle of buying a gun in RSA you might be more likely to find a nice used 458 than anything else.

Regardless of all the hype about past poor preformance the 458 with modern ammo is a real thumper and a huge step up in power over a 375.

Good luck,

Mark

Mark,

You may, and probably will, get crap about your advice on a .458 Win Mag for young_ph. You have my suppot though.

Bigger IS better, and a .458, be it a Win Mag or Lott, makes a bigger hole than any 416. There is also nothing 'wrong' with a CZ, they work. What really counts is that they work reliably!

I don't belittle a .416, have no experience with them. But a .458 Win Mag is very easy to download to +- 400 grains @ +- 1800 ft/sec - a near ideal impala, warthog or general lion/leopard bait, and practice, load.

young-ph, my best wishes for the long and difficult journey to full PH-hood!

Andrew McLaren

Hey guys, thank you for all the help, advice and best wishes, please post some more ! I think that I should just shoot a few calibres and see which one I like best, and which is the most affordable/practical option.

THe ph's I have been with had - .375 H&H or .458 Lott in a variety of guns.

Congrats!

My PH (operating in Zim for the past 11 years) uses a CZ chambered in .450 Ackley...This gun will also shoot factory .458 Win. Thus he can use his favorite loadings in the Ackley / grab-up whatever .458 Win is available out there.

Just a consideration.

JW

One consideration for me at least was free ammo, lots of hunters don't want to bother with taking their leftover ammunition home. My choice as a PH was the .416 Rem. mag. in a Win. Model 70. NO complaints and I wouldn't change anything if I did it again.

Yep, go for a 416 Rem, and reload for it. Components are cheap, brass can be made from 375 H&H, dies are readily available, as is (expensive!) factory ammo. If you go for anything else listed (except the 458 or Lott), all the above still applies, but you may have trouble sourcing brass. And the ammo costs will be a whole lot worse.
On an Appies wages, that really matters!
If you don't want to reload, get a 375 or 458, either are much cheaper to feed than a 404 or a 416 Rigby. Practice is everything.
Just my thoughts, it's up to you, you are the guy who will be carrying this rifle.

Cheers, Dave.
Non Illegitium Carborundum

Sorry, should have clarified the reason for exempting the 458 and 458 Lott from the others. The 458, components and loaded ammo are relatively inexpensive compared to say 404 or 416. And the Lott can be made from 375 H&H brass. And is easy to load for. But the recoil of either will be heavier than a 416 Rem out of similar rifles. Don't know if that is important to you, but it was a factor in my choice of the 416 Rem.

Cheers, Dave.
Non Illegitium Carborundum.

Yph,

As a professional hunter you have the responsibility of protecting your clients..Getting them out of a jam and stopping a charge...The Lott has the energy in a 500 gr to do everything you want it to and will not let you down...

Mike

YPH,
Which company will you be working for? My advice to you would be a Lott in a CZ rifle - cheap and pretty good right out of the box. If you can, have a gunsmith down south go through the action and magazine and have it thoroughly checked.....Then if you make some good tips, you can get yourself a 2nd DG caliber in a fancier custom make

another suggestion for the 458 lott.. as the gun will also shoot 458 win, you can feed it 24/7.. and once trained to it, you wouldn't notice the recoil any more than a 375...

416rem? for a ph, in a non-reloading country? no.

375 HH for a ph with DG? I would prefer a larger one.

416 rigby? same price as the 458 lott, but none of the advantages, especially with non-reloading.

550 express.. yeah, actually, the perfect DG round.. but, and a serious but, it is a clase iv stopping rifle, not a generaly followup DG gun... recoil is about double a 458 lott (heh, we shot this combo saturday)

jeffe

Non reloading country? In that case get a CZ in 458 Lott, for the reasons Bwanamich and jeffeosso put forward. Inexpensive, and good right out of the box.

Cheers, Dave.
Non Illegitium Carborundum

quote:

Easy. CZ in 458 Lott.

I don't get it. It seems almost every thread here has blamed the CZ on poor craftsmanship, terrible feeding and functioning and stock splitting. I'm not questioning the caliber just the gun. It seems the only thing everyone has said positive about the rifle is it's "cheap".

I would think this to be a poor recommendation for an up and coming PH whose life will be on the line most days.
I realize after a good gunsmith has had this gun it probably functions well, but I think for the purpose there would be better rifles around.

foxfire,

Most of the "problems" with CZ's are internet founded. I've had a bunch and they are no worse than any other rifle. Actually I haven't had any problems with any of them except modifying the safety to suit myself.

Practically every kid (appy) in Zim has one. So what's the problem?

quote:

Originally posted by foxfire:

quote:

Easy. CZ in 458 Lott.

I don't get it. It seems almost every thread here has blamed the CZ on poor craftsmanship, terrible feeding and functioning and stock splitting.

CZ: Action is rough, sometimes feeding needs to be adjusted, safety needs to be changed, needs cross bolts, 2nd recoil lug, glass bedding, shorter barrel, better sights, better recoil pad.

Winchester Model 70: Action is rough, needs sharps radiused or may hang up on feeding, needs 2nd recoil lug, glass bedding, shorter barrel, maybe better sight (SS version), better recoil pad.

Remigton: Extractor breaks, bolt handle falls off, bolt opens on its own because safety does not lock it dow, gun has accidental discharge when safety is pushed off.

If you want a gun that does not require work, get a custom bolt gun in the US$10,000 price range or else a double rifle.

quote:

Most of the "problems" with CZ's are internet founded. I've had a bunch and they are no worse than any other rifle. Actually I haven't had any problems with any of them except modifying the safety to suit myself.

Practically every kid (appy) in Zim has one. So what's the problem

Will, I don't know the problem, I was making a statement based on what was read here.
There seemed to be more than a few stocks splitting, all of the 458 lotts spoken of here seemed to have feed problems. I don't know what standard gun problems are, I buy a gun and use it. It never has to go back for anything, normally.

Internet Founded I don't think so, for me there is much to much smoke to not have any fire. For my money I'd stay away from them.

If I was in that situation and Grandpa didn't 'loan' me his H&H Sidelock .465 NE, I would go out and buy a CZ in .458 Win Mag or Lott, or a .416 Rem Mag on a M98 action.

How about a .435 PH Express?



***

Ganyana

Please tell more about the .400 Tembo.

Bwanamich,
I think the company's name is JML (Jean Michel Litrien) Safaris, I'll probably be appie to Clint Taylor, he's my neighbour in R.S.A and he's got loads of experience, he shot his first buff(49 inch spread) and a lioness when he was 9 (yes, nine) years old. The buff with a .338win mag and the lioness with a .22hornet !!!! His personal DG rifle at this moment is a .450rigby rimless with Barnes-x. Clint grew up in the Timbavati near Hoedspruit in R.S.A. where his dad was a game ranger.

Can anyone tell me about the .435 PH Express NITRO-X mentioned?

Young_ph,
Send me a pm with your email and I will forward you a comparison list that Doctari has sent me a while ago. A lot of info in there. His suggestion to me was the same as Ganyana, the 400 Tembo. They must know each other. Just a joke, as far as I know they do know each other and you can take their advice. The only problem with the 400 Tembo , you got to import the barrel blank and brass will be expensive.

I will also vote for the Lott. Out of the box IMHO gose to the Ruger RSM. I love mine and do not find the recoil bad. I have had no extraction issues and think those were in the 416 anyway. The action can be slicked up by just
working it with a drop of oil. Yes, it cost more than a CZ but by the time you do 500gr's
list, Not much more.

I would choose the 458 lott. It has plenty of power and can also shoot 458 win mag. I know the win mag has had lots of bad press but the start of all that was in the 60's when they were trying to force too much powder in the case. The powder would clump up and not burn well, to say the least. Nowadays this problem has been remedied. Also there is an abundance of this ammo all over Africa. The ammo is cheaper then most others in the same class and in a bind you can make the lott with 375 brass. It would be a no brainer for me.

quote:

Originally posted by young_ph:
Bwanamich,
I think the company's name is JML (Jean Michel Litrien) Safaris, I'll probably be appie to Clint Taylor, he's my neighbour in R.S.A and he's got loads of experience, he shot his first buff(49 inch spread) and a lioness when he was 9 (yes, nine) years old. The buff with a .338win mag and the lioness with a .22hornet !!!! His personal DG rifle at this moment is a .450rigby rimless with Barnes-x. Clint grew up in the Timbavati near Hoedspruit in R.S.A. where his dad was a game ranger.

Can anyone tell me about the .435 PH Express NITRO-X mentioned?

My suggestion would be to ask Clint, he's there and probably has a Hell of a lot better idea(s) about ammo avialiblity, suitable calibers, costs(s), etc. Hey, He sounds like the best source of information you could find.

Though I might be wrong, but can it hurt ask?

I wouldn't put to much emphasis on caliber, most big bores are capable of killing anything that you shoot with them...I would pick a rifle that fitted me, pointed well and appealed to me..A good pre 64 Mod 70, a CZ, a new Win. M-70, a good Whitworth whatever felt right....

500Grains

quote:

CZ: Action is rough, sometimes feeding needs to be adjusted, safety needs to be changed, needs cross bolts, 2nd recoil lug, glass bedding, shorter barrel, better sights, better recoil pad.

I had a cz in 416 a few years back. It had a second recoil lug on the barrel and came with a Pachmar Decelerator recoil pad. Have they changed these features on the new CZ 458 Lotts?

Jason

I agree on that CZ 550 American magnum classic with a Gentry 3 pos safety and your in there in 458 lott.

You can shoot 458 Winchester with no problem and or if Hornady is available shoot the lott with the new bonded 458 bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

quote:

Originally posted by foxfire:

quote:

Easy. CZ in 458 Lott.

I don't get it. It seems almost every thread here has blamed the CZ on poor craftsmanship, terrible feeding and functioning and stock splitting.

CZ: Action is rough, sometimes feeding needs to be adjusted, safety needs to be changed, needs cross bolts, 2nd recoil lug, glass bedding, shorter barrel, better sights, better recoil pad.

Winchester Model 70: Action is rough, needs sharps radiused or may hang up on feeding, needs 2nd recoil lug, glass bedding, shorter barrel, maybe better sight (SS version), better recoil pad.

Remigton: Extractor breaks, bolt handle falls off, bolt opens on its own because safety does not lock it dow, gun has accidental discharge when safety is pushed off.

If you want a gun that does not require work, get a custom bolt gun in the US$10,000 price range or else a double rifle.

Don't give the kid a heart attack!

For $10,000 he could have a used double.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

quote:

Originally posted by foxfire:

quote:

Easy. CZ in 458 Lott.

I don't get it. It seems almost every thread here has blamed the CZ on poor craftsmanship, terrible feeding and functioning and stock splitting.

CZ: Action is rough, sometimes feeding needs to be adjusted, safety needs to be changed, needs cross bolts, 2nd recoil lug, glass bedding, shorter barrel, better sights, better recoil pad.

Winchester Model 70: Action is rough, needs sharps radiused or may hang up on feeding, needs 2nd recoil lug, glass bedding, shorter barrel, maybe better sight (SS version), better recoil pad.

Remigton: Extractor breaks, bolt handle falls off, bolt opens on its own because safety does not lock it dow, gun has accidental discharge when safety is pushed off.

If you want a gun that does not require work, get a custom bolt gun in the US$10,000 price range or else a double rifle.

Or you could just buy a new CZ, run some rounds through it to break it in, and get accustomed to your new rifle, and THEN worry if anything seems wrong with it.
Seriously 500grains, where's an Appy PH going to find $10,000?
Buy the CZ, or whatever you decide to go with (stay away from weatherbys if you are not going to reload, likewise anything in 404 or 416 rigby, just too damn expensive to run!), and practice with the gun until it is an extention of your body. Once you do that, you will be way ahead in the game anyway.
In the process, you may find that some things need to be adjusted on your rifle, but I'll bet you find that it will be a LOT cheaper than $10,000.

Cheers, Dave.
Non Illegitium Carborundum

young_PH, when I hunted last season with Garry Kelly Safaris in RSA, my PH was an outstanding and experienced young fellow named Mike Curry. His personal rifle was a CZ in 416 Rigby, and he's was extremely happy and confident with that rifle and caliber.

It seems to me that you could do a lot worse than to go with that exact-same package for your own use, especially if you carefully select your solid and soft-point loads..........

AD

I'd read the files, written by Ganyana,
about the guide to rifle choice. His observations at the PH proficiency tests will certainly be useful
in picking the right rifle. Also, since these guys are in the same boat you and I are, as far as finances, they factor in cost as a major component, and rifle reliability really becomes an issue here as well.

A Guide to Rifle Choice for Dangerous Game

gs

PS This is too good not to read: My bible on DG rifles:

Ganyana on PH game rifles

After reading that: I would say the best way to go is two rifles: one CZ bruno, in 375 H&H, and a 458 Lott CZ for the bigger stuff, both with open sites. That way, when it becomes time to back up you are used to the long action of the CZ, and won't short stroke. Also brass would be interchangable, reloading, and, I'm guessing you would get a bunch of free 375 H&H ammunition from hunters going home.

Rifle evaluation from Zim PH Pro Exam by Don Heath

Don Heath is full of himself isn't he?