Now I think I've seen it all! The Babe Winkelman show was an archery hunt for cape buffalo in Limpopo Provice of SA. The hunter shot a gorgeous bull with his bow and it ran into nasty riverine cover. Trees were climbed to see where the wounded buffalo was and his condition. No conclusion could be reached so a helicopter arrived on the scene and determined the buffalo was alive. With that someone in the helicopter shot and killed the buffalo. When they dragged the bull out, he was 47 inches wide. The arrow was in a good location but did not have the opportunity to be fatal. I don't want to see anyone injured but this just did not seem right to me.

Agree....

It's not right -- and I suspect that it's not legal either.

Under "method of Take," SCI will have to use "helicopter"

Glad the bull wasn't lost. Archery is risky too. (Or is that too risky?) Sometimes a plan goes wrong and you have to make another to finish the bad job.

I love to hunt with my bow and arrow,,, but for buffalo my 416 rigby will be in my hand. You really need special archery equipment for the big nasties to get the penetration needed for a quick kill. I have heard of them using helicoptors to locate wounded game numerous times in South Africa,, but all were for gun hunters with bad shots,, the chopper was an extra cost but alittle more money seemed better than a lost trophy and trophy fee.

if you think you are MAN enough to hunt cape with a bow.....
be MAN enough to finish the job!
Fn cowards

I believe you will find that this is not Mr. Winkleman's first indiscretion with aircraft and hunting. IIRC, he was convicted for violating the Lacey Act on a fly and hunt the same day violation that occurred in Canada or Alaska.

Archery hunting is an ancient, demanding activity that requires very specific skills. I have a lot of respect for those who do it well.

That said, I believe that if you choose to hunt animals, particularly dangerous game, with a bow then you should have to go after wounded animals using only a bow and with NO RIFLE BACKUP. Archery means archery.

If the information here is accurate then the use of a helicopter in this case is inexcusable.

Hireing a helicopter and 'retrieving' the trophy is cheaper than having to pay a 2nd trophy fee for a 2nd Buffalo.

I'll bet the fee for that 47" incher would have been obscene.

quote:

Originally posted by ravenr:
if you think you are MAN enough to hunt cape with a bow.....
be MAN enough to finish the job!
Fn cowards

Precisely!

Never get yourself into something you are unwilling to finish.

quote:

Originally posted by Upton O. Good:
Archery hunting is an ancient, demanding activity that requires very specific skills. I have a lot of respect for those who do it well.

That said, I believe that if you choose to hunt animals, particularly dangerous game, with a bow then you should have to go after wounded animals using only a bow and with NO RIFLE BACKUP. Archery means archery.

If the information here is accurate then the use of a helicopter in this case is inexcusable.

so rifle hunters IN AFRICA should demand that the PH NOT carry a rifle?????? I mean fair is fair.....

troy

i suppose using a chopper to locate a wounded animal MIGHT be ok. but finishing him off from a chopper-NEVER!!!!!! I wish some SA PH's would sound off the legality of this.

The PH can backup the archery hunter with archery, that seems right. The same for guys shooting muzzle loaders and handguns. I guess my thinking is if you have a rifle backup you aren't totally archery, or muzzle loader or handgun hunting. If you think you're a stud and you want to use these other forms of hunting equipment, good on you, and some folks use them better than most people use rifles. I just think you should do it all the way if you're going to do it.

Respect the animal. Bowhunters think they are more "sporty," but when you let then animal bleed out, it's not sporty to me. With a rifle, I shoot until the animal doesn't move again. Respect the animal.

quote:

I wish some SA PH's would sound off the legality of this.

It is 100% illegal unless you have a permit granted by the provincial wildlife authority.
This would be a lengthy procedure and is not likely to have been the case.

If you would like to check this email PHASA to inquire with the details of the hunt

I'll hold off on commenting about the archery side of the discussion and the ethics there of as there will never be a consensus about backing up with rifles etc. One things for sure though is that if an archery kill is finished off with a rifle it is not in any way eligible for the SCI book. I had a friend guide a hunter to what would have been the new SCI No.1 leopard, unfortunately it was wounded and was killed in a charge (actually while chewing on the appy!). Everyone accepted that it was not a true archery kill and it was never entered as such.

In terms of using a chopper to dispatch wounded game i think that hunters should use any means that they have available to end an animals suffering. PH's wisely use vehicles to follow wounded lions and buffalo into long grass so i dont see the use of a chopper being any different? If it is available and it will assist in ending the life of a wounded animal quickly and cleanly then why not.

I have had a client pay for a chopper after a buffalo which was lightly wounded ran into a large thicket of sickle bush - for those of you that have hunted an area with sickle bush you will know that it can be impenetrable. Aside from literally crawling on your stomach there was no way that you could get in there and defintely had a a very slim chance of pulling off a shot. Buffalo however have no problem running through as if it is grass. Luckily there was a team doing game capture nearby and we brought in the chopper and got the buffalo fairly quickly; it then took us half a day to cut a road in to retrieve the buffalo and 3 punctures before we got out of the sickle bush. The alternative was to leave the animal and hope it died or leave it with a festering wound and the risk that it may blindside someone hunting on another occasion. I believe bringing in the chopper was 100% the right move.

@ African Hunters Quest: According to the game ordinances in some provinces it is also 100% illegal to shoot any game from a vehicle unless you have a permit and the Ordinance doesn't differentiate between wounded and unwounded.I have yet to hear of a PH denying the client the opportunity to dispatch wounded game from a vehicle because the PH needs to get a permit to do so!

It would be interesting to hear what PHASA's view is

Manyathelo
You are correct. I was also going to mention that many of the popular horseback hunts are also illegal under the manner in which some of the ordinances are written.

Except in extreme circumstances the use of a helicopter does not sit right with my personal hunting ethics. But yes you are right there can be no blanket decision as at times it may not be possible.

It is exactly this sort of situation in which I believe that a pack of hounds would have been the preferable way to deal with the situation. I firmly believe that they have a very prominent role to play in hunting and especially where the hunting of Leopard and Buffalo with archery equipment and the follow up of either of these animals in a wounded scenario.
It is the quickest way to ensure a speady death and to remove the possibility of the wounded animal clobbering an innocent person later.

You are right, it will be interesting to see what PHASA have to say?

Archery hunting for LARGE DG (Buff and Elephant), IMHO...falls into the category of "Stunt-hunting". I'll offer the sporting nimrod who called in the helicopter gunship the same respect he gave his quarry....NONE...ZIP...zero...zilch.
Please don't bother asking things like "Well, what should he have done to sort out the Buff"....What little nimrod SHOULD HAVE DONE...was leave the damn bow in the closet.

I find it interesting that some countries that permit hunting dangerous game using a pointed stick propelled by a string have rules pertaining to rifle bore size; i.e., at least .375 caliber. They ought to just outlaw bow hunting of dangerous game but then maybe that would be bad for business.

I also wonder how many large animals allegedly taken with a bow were actually finished off with a rifle.

This is a disgrace!!

Find it on foot like a man.

African Hunters Quest i agree with you 100% about using dogs to bay up a wounded Buffalo but that my friend is a whole other discussion and a big can of worms....

In 09, I hunted the Save. We saw a PH from an adjoining property. They were 4 days into tracking a buff bull wounded by a client with a long bow. I wouldn't even try it myself.

I did come across a guy perhaps 7-8 years ago. He had wounded a massive old bull (at least according to him). They had lost the track. He hired a chopper. They flew the property to see if they could spot the bull from the air, hopefully dead. This was done without guns. They never spotted the bull. However, five days later the bull was spotted at a water hole. He was finished there. I personally do not have a problem with that. I have no idea if it is legal.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Grumulkin:
I find it interesting that some countries that permit hunting dangerous game using a pointed stick propelled by a string have rules pertaining to rifle bore size; i.e., at least .375 caliber. QUOTE]

You know, that's a great point and something I'd not thought of before.

Upton=I would love to hunt DG with my bow and not have a PH backing me up with a rifle.Can you tell me which countries allow this? None.

OK - Then why don't we bring this thread back to reality and the topic.

quote:

Originally posted by eyedoc:
Upton=I would love to hunt DG with my bow and not have a PH backing me up with a rifle.Can you tell me which countries allow this? None.

OK - Then why don't we bring this thread back to reality and the topic.

It may be possible in Zimbabwe but I can't think of a more stupid thing to do. IMO it is OK to risk your life but not those of your tracker or game scout.

465H&H

There is no country in Southern Africa that will allow a visiting hunter to hunt DG without a PH in attendence. It is unheard of, and probably unlawful, for him to not be armed with a rifle.

This argument comes up every time bow hunting for DG comes up. I would love to hunt DG armed only with my bow and without the back-up of a PH. But it is not going to happen in our lifetime.

I have taken a cape buffalo with my bow.Also a water buffalo in Argentina. Did not need a PH to bail me out in either case.Taken a dozen eland, five giraffe, and over 100 head of African plains game with a bow. A bow does the job just fine when the hunter does his job.Studies by Tony Thompkinson showed that animals taken with a bow died in the same time span as animals taken with a rifle when they were hit in the same place.

I see examples of poor hunting each and every week on the outdoor channel.Just as many or more of the atrocities I see committed are committed by gun hunters.

Why blame the equipment? Blame the hunter using the equipment. Winkleman did not get the job done and had to be bailed out by his PH. I know of two incidents where this very same scenario played out in the same area and a rifle was the weapon used.

By the way, I am not an elitist that thinks there is no way other than bowhunting. I went to Africa in May and did not even bring a bow.When I went back in July I did not even bring a rifle. I was bowhunting on that trip.When a problem lion came available ,I took a rifle for that hunt.

My point is that the success of a hunt, and the ethical conclusion to a hunt , is more dependent on the skill of the hunter with the equipment of his choice, and not simply whether that choice is to use a rifle or a bow.

eyedoc,

As I said it may be possible in Zimbabwe. Contact Don Heath or Martin Pieters to check out the possibility. I know you can for rifle hunting but unsure about bow hunting. With all due respect, I still think it is a stupid idea.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by eyedoc:
the success of a hunt, and the ethical conclusion to a hunt , is more dependent on the skill of the hunter with the equipment of his choice, and not simply whether that choice is to use a rifle or a bow.

eyedoc, I don't mean to be an antagonist here and just so you know, I also bow hunt. But after a lot of thought and speaking with several PH's, I've decided, FOR ME, and only for me, that bowhunting DG doesn't work.

In your statement, you say that it's the person's performance, not the equipment that makes the difference. Does this hold true for Elephant? I may be wrong here, but if you hit a rib with a 416, assuming bullets of proper construction (solids), that shot will penetrate and kill. If you hit a rib with an arrow, it will likely not penetrate at all. Is this correct? I ask because I don't know. If that is the case, your statement doesn't hold water. If this is the case, then luck plays a part in whether or not the arrow hits a rib as I don't think you can distinguish rib from space when taking your shot.

Personally, for me again, I don't ascribe to the minimal weapon theory in that your PH will bail you out if trouble occurs. As experienced and well trained as your PH is likely to be, he is still human. He is capable of making a mistake. His equipment is capable of failing as well.

It hasn't happened to me so far as to this point, I've never had a PH fire a shot. Not that it will bother me once it happens. But when that day comes that the PH saves my bacon, I don't want to have to look at him and admit "Well, that was stupid to start a fight with ________ inappropriate weapon. Thanks for saving my ass". I would rather be able to say, "Man that went down hill quickly. Thanks for saving my ass".

465-I appreciate your opinion.If I were younger and still raising kids that were dependent on me for their support I would tend to be a little more cautious. Now that I have completed my biological imperative, I have more freedom to indulge myself. If I get stomped by a buffalo or chewed on by a leopard the world will not stop turning.

I do know that I have never felt more alive than I did when my party was charged by a cape buffalo and I faced him with a bow in my hands.My back-up (PH) allowed the buffalo to seperate him from his rifle and never got off a shot. I killed a buffalo the next day with my bow and it went off without a hitch. Good fun but not nearly the rush experienced the day before.

Too many people are so afraid of dying that they never really get to live.

Todd-Hunting elephant is probably the greatest challenge a bowhunter could undertake. I have killed three elephant, all with a rifle, so I am not an expert on the subject.For me personally,I would only hunt elephant with a bow if I could generate enough kinetic energy to blow through ribs if they were encountered. With todays modern compounds that is possible if one is strong enough to handle the poundage required.

I have not hunted elephant with a bow as yet , but have toyed with the idea now that I have taken them with a rifle. Shooting an arrow weighing between 1000 and 1200 grains out of a 90 lb bow would be the set-up.

The three bulls I took so far were killed at ranges of 20 yards to 9 yards. Two never knew I was there, the third I took with a frontal brain shot at nine yards and he saw me just at the last second. From this range I feel I can get the job done. With such a set-up I have blown arrows right through giraffe and while I know elephant are much larger and tougher than giraffe, they are still a pretty good test.

quote:

Studies by Tony Thompkinson showed that animals taken with a bow died in the same time span as animals taken with a rifle when they were hit in the same place.

Do you REALLY believe that? It doesn't pass the sniff test. I made 3 neck shots on deer that were bang flops DRT last year with a rifle. How often do you get "twang flops" with a bow?

I've also taken exactly one deer with a bow and it WAS a neck shot. It was no twang flop. It went about 15 yards, lay down and I waited for it to die. It didn't seem to expire all that fast so I approached it to deliver a finishing shot. The deer took off, ran about 100 yards into a corn field whereupon, I dragged it out and dispatched it with a knife.

I have full confidence that if I had hit the deer with a .277 caliber bullet "in the same place" it would have been DRT.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by eyedoc:
Upton=I would love to hunt DG with my bow and not have a PH backing me up with a rifle.Can you tell me which countries allow this? None.

OK - Then why don't we bring this thread back to reality and the topic.

It may be possible in Zimbabwe but I can't think of a more stupid thing to do. IMO it is OK to risk your life but not those of your tracker or game scout.

465H&H

If DG hunting with bows or handguns is allowed. I can't see any reason for minimum calibre requirements.

If they can do it with a bow or handgun then it should be legal to go after ele with a 7x57.

Not that I would want to do it, but I imagine allowing such underpowered exceptions it would be hard to enforce the other regulations with a straight face.

They should at least require poison on the arrows for the large DG...


.

Eyedoc: For the record it was Winkelman's show but he was not the hunter. The hunter showed the broadhead he was using and to me (a non archer) it seemed rather complicated with blades that folded in and out. I believe it was a "rage". The shot was made at 22 yards and the shooter seemed pleased with the shot.

LJS, I didn't see the show. If that bow hunter tried to shoot an elephant with a "rage" expandable broadhead he should of been forced to follow it up alone armed with his bow.

The rage expandable is a sorry, pitiful excuse of a broadhead to try and use on an elephant. I cannot believe that any PH would allow such a thing.

For non bowhunters it would be akin to taking a shotgun loaded with #1 buckshot after elephant...stupid. Shows the intelligence level of the shooter....

troy

quote:

Originally posted by TwoZero:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by eyedoc:
Upton=I would love to hunt DG with my bow and not have a PH backing me up with a rifle.Can you tell me which countries allow this? None.

OK - Then why don't we bring this thread back to reality and the topic.

It may be possible in Zimbabwe but I can't think of a more stupid thing to do. IMO it is OK to risk your life but not those of your tracker or game scout.

465H&H

If DG hunting with bows or handguns is allowed. I can't see any reason for minimum calibre requirements.

If they can do it with a bow or handgun then it should be legal to go after ele with a 7x57.

Not that I would want to do it, but I imagine allowing such underpowered exceptions it would be hard to enforce the other regulations with a straight face.

They should at least require poison on the arrows for the large DG...


.

I hunt DG almost exclusively with handguns -- and the minimum caliber requirements apply to me just as they do to a rifle hunter. I use wildcats only because rifle loading are designed for longer barrels, but the wildcats I use for DG are ballistic equivalents of either the 375 H&H or the 416 Rigby. I'm not "underpowered" as you say just because I'm using a handgun -- I just like the additional difficulty the handgun introduces.

I have nothing against rifles, I love my double rifles, I just don't use them unless the country I'm hunting won't let me use handguns.

History Lesson 101 - Cowboys & Indians

The Indians threw away their bows and arrows because they were "no damn good". They even traded whiskey for 'good' rifles.
While I recognize that some technological improvements have been made in the last 150 years, bows and arrows are still "no damn good" compared to the modern rifle - which has also had some technological improvement.

quote:

Originally posted by eyedoc:
Todd-Hunting elephant is probably the greatest challenge a bowhunter could undertake. I have killed three elephant, all with a rifle, so I am not an expert on the subject.For me personally,I would only hunt elephant with a bow if I could generate enough kinetic energy to blow through ribs if they were encountered. With todays modern compounds that is possible if one is strong enough to handle the poundage required.

I have not hunted elephant with a bow as yet , but have toyed with the idea now that I have taken them with a rifle. Shooting an arrow weighing between 1000 and 1200 grains out of a 90 lb bow would be the set-up.

The three bulls I took so far were killed at ranges of 20 yards to 9 yards. Two never knew I was there, the third I took with a frontal brain shot at nine yards and he saw me just at the last second. From this range I feel I can get the job done. With such a set-up I have blown arrows right through giraffe and while I know elephant are much larger and tougher than giraffe, they are still a pretty good test.

eyedoc, I've taken 3 elephant also. All with the 500 NE. I've been up close and personal with them as well and had a chance to study their anatomy to some extent. I've spoken with PH's about archery elephant hunts and most tell me that no current archery set up will penetrate an elephant's rib. Again, I don't know as I don't have the heavy duty set up for archery tackle. But if that is the case, it would seem irresponsible to me to rely on luck to get a killing shot on any animal, not to mention these great beasts.

But again, I'm not telling anyone what to do. Far from it. I'm just saying that for me, I'm only interested in a hunt if I'm carrying a weapon that is fully capable of handling any situation that may arise. That doesn't mean necessarily that I am capable of handling the situation, but with the proper weapon, I at least stand a fighting chance of handling it myself.

Dtala: The show was a hunt for cape buffalo not elephant.